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Retrobyter

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Shalom, everyone.

Recently, guysmith asked me about this passage of Scripture:

...In Matthew7 Christ states:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I would like to get to the heart of this statement.
If you are up to this, we can discuss this PM or on the forum.
I would like to discuss this as a semi-closed discussion between you and me, however, it would be open to others that want to participate.
Let me know.
Guy
At his suggestion, I would like to discuss this statement in the open forum to get everyone's view.

For me, I think this statement is quite simple. There will be those who THINK they are doing the Lord's work but have never taken the time to get to KNOW either Yeshua` or His Father beyond a head knowledge.

It doesn't matter HOW MUCH a person can do FOR God if he has never MET God. As can be seen in verse 22 above, these people will be able to prophesy, drive out demons, and perform many miracles while NEVER drawing near to God! Some claim that these can only be done in the Spirit, but clearly that's not the case!

Thus, it is possible to THINK you're in the Spirit and never to have known the Spirit of God.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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I agree with Retro

It sometimes astounds me when I meet fine upstanding people who have never missed a day of church yet if you talk to them as fellow Christians all you get are blank stares .... it is like they are clueless about Christianity.

We have numerous large Hutterite colonies here .... very religious .... the whole concept is based on christian communal living and having everything in common Acts 2:44

Yet you try to talk with them as fellow Christians and you get blank stares , they are clueless.

As a matter of fact the "Christian Hutterites" find they have to leave the colonies in order to actually "Be" Christians
 

Tropical Islander

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'Head knowledge' is a good point, that's why the epistles of John were written, the gnostics already tried to corrupt the gospel at that time. John corrects them and tell us "how we know that we know". He also teaches us the difference between the worlds' use of the word "love" to what is real love in Biblical terms. Huge difference, worldly view vs. Godly view.

The 'evildoers' in above translation are also called 'workers of lawlessness' and 'doers of iniquity' in others, what comes closer to the point of what is wrong with them. And what is the charge that qualifies them to be unknown to Jesus.

We have to understand that to 'drive out demons' is done by the power and name of Jesus. Not by our own power. these gifts are not magic tricks where we possess any power. So by knowing that "in the name of Jesus" has that power, and applying that power we not yet necessarily also allowed him to be Lord in our lifes.One without the other again is just head knowledge, even when applied in a practical life circumstance.

So that by itself does not lead Jesus to his statement. The charge to be an evildoer, lawless or a worker of iniquity however is a deeper look inside the heart, because it will fail all "gnostic" tests of 1 John and 2 John, and therefore is not genuine saving faith. Why are the claims not true? People just consider themselves to be saved because of legalistic rituals and a initial confession that mean nothing to them, they did not let Jesus transform them - they preferred to live a life in sin, rebellion in regard to guidance and their persistant lawlessness testifies that they never repented of it.

They are still in the old creation, that's their life testimony, that the spirit in them was not able to change their life for the better. They have a religious spirit that does not transform lifes. And that is so, because God's laws are not written on their hearts, therefore they are not able to walk in the Spirit, therefore they are not born again, and so Jesus never knew them, because the Holy Spirit does not live inside them. It's a tragic deception, simply because they had no love for the truth.
 

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For me, I think this statement is quite simple. There will be those who THINK they are doing the Lord's work but have never taken the time to get to KNOW either Yeshua` or His Father beyond a head knowledge.

It doesn't matter HOW MUCH a person can do FOR God if he has never MET God. As can be seen in verse 22 above, these people will be able to prophesy, drive out demons, and perform many miracles while NEVER drawing near to God! Some claim that these can only be done in the Spirit, but clearly that's not the case!
Thus, it is possible to THINK you're in the Spirit and never to have known the Spirit of God.
I disagree with your premise as I believe that many believers can start out the right way in Christ and end up being deceived by the enemy...take for instance "Dominionism" associated with the New Apostolic Reformation movement. Leaders like Peter Wagner, Cindy Jacobs, Rick Joyner, John Dawson and even Joyce Myers and Joel Osteen have been reported to have connections with them...did not start out this way. As a matter of fact many of these names have led multitudes to the cross that leads to salvation. However, The dominion theology has crept into and is subtly undermining many of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements today.. This theology teaches that it is our duty as Christians to take the world for God in order to impose biblical rule through modern day apostles ordained by God through the Church. They also believe that Jesus will not return until the church has "risen up" and "taken dominion" over all of the world's governments and institutions.
They believe that it is not a matter for discussion but rather a mandate from God. Dominionism is noted as a form of religious populism. There is also a branch of DT called Kingdom Now. They teach that God is looking for people to take back the world from Satan. The question is...did God tell us to do that? the answer is...no. He can do it himself without our help. The book of revelation does not say that believers are involved in any way accept by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimonies...God and his angels deal with the enemy in the end and not mankind. JM2c :huh:
 

Rocky Wiley

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To really love of God the following is needed.


Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
We need to obey God without question.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

No one comes to God by way of knowledge for we must enter into the kingdom as little children when God calls us.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus points out the three truths we must know about Jesus.

I. Jesus is the way:
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
1. Called
We were all born dead spiritually because of the sin of Adam, but when we first believe we become alive.

II. Jesus is the truth:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now Jesus says that once we are alive we must continue to believe in him. How do we do that?
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
1. Chosen
Once we are called we must now gain knowledge by believing on him as the scriptures say. To be able to believe in him will now require us to read everything written in red, as we know that would be Jesus speaking. At some point early in our conversion we will come across this passage.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

III. Jesus is the life:
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Now, when born again, we truly are the little children that Jesus spoke about.
1. Faithful


Gal_4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn_2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn_2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jn_2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn_2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jn_3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn_3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn_5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Is bible study optional? Out knowledge of God is not finished just because we have started our walk with Him. It is a life long aventure of love and knowledge.






 

guysmith

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Welcome everyone,


I for one do not want to go through life thinking that I have been saved only to stand before Christ and find out that “He never knew me.” So, I approached Retrobyter to brain storm the subject. We knew that it could be offensive to some individuals so it was a choice between discussing in a PM or on a thread. It was decided to bring the subject to the prophecy forum.

There are several reasons that we brought this to the prophecy forum in particular. One reason is that Retrobyter and I frequent this forum exclusively and are familiar with most of you. The second reason is that (though the subject could be found in a general discussion forum) most of the Biblical references are prophecy in nature.

This is an important subject, one of which should be on the burner for some of you. For some of you it is not. This discussion is not meant to offend or to state that one point is right and the other is wrong. This discussion is meant to put possibilities on the table and let everyone make their own decision.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Shalom Retrobyter,

As we had discussed, Christ stated in Matthew 7:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This states that there are those that appear to be Christian on the outside, yet on the inside they never seemed to have gotten on Christ’s radar. Two possibilities:
  1. These individuals never accepted Christ’s sacrifice.
  2. These individuals accepted Christ but extra effort is required so as to be recognized?
Any thoughts? Are there other examples of individuals claiming to know Christ, yet they fall short of being welcomed into the fold?
 

Tropical Islander

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Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Another case. They know how He is. But they don't want to follow him. with their lips they profess him, yet they refuse His right to instruct and lead them - His very own creation. They rather follow their own theories....and will. Self-glorification, denial of His Lordship. Mental acknowledgment to facts, however they don't come to him like children.

previously:
"but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." goes with that. They say the same thing. If you say that Jesus does teach old covenant and you listen to another Jesus then we have a problem.

You do not follow the real Jesus then, so why would you think you have the Holy Spirit?

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Exactly, why do we expect salvation but refuse His right to tell us how He wants us to follow him?

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The followers are the ones that come to him, they are given the Holy Spirit. That how He knows them, that's how He is known to us.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Guy.

guysmith said:
Welcome everyone,


I for one do not want to go through life thinking that I have been saved only to stand before Christ and find out that “He never knew me.” So, I approached Retrobyter to brain storm the subject. We knew that it could be offensive to some individuals so it was a choice between discussing in a PM or on a thread. It was decided to bring the subject to the prophecy forum.

There are several reasons that we brought this to the prophecy forum in particular. One reason is that Retrobyter and I frequent this forum exclusively and are familiar with most of you. The second reason is that (though the subject could be found in a general discussion forum) most of the Biblical references are prophecy in nature.

This is an important subject, one of which should be on the burner for some of you. For some of you it is not. This discussion is not meant to offend or to state that one point is right and the other is wrong. This discussion is meant to put possibilities on the table and let everyone make their own decision.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

Shalom Retrobyter,

As we had discussed, Christ stated in Matthew 7:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This states that there are those that appear to be Christian on the outside, yet on the inside they never seemed to have gotten on Christ’s radar. Two possibilities:
  1. These individuals never accepted Christ’s sacrifice.
  2. These individuals accepted Christ but extra effort is required so as to be recognized?
Any thoughts? Are there other examples of individuals claiming to know Christ, yet they fall short of being welcomed into the fold?
As for your two possibilities, I would be more prone to accept possibility 1 than 2. Possibility 1 puts the matter squarely on the individual, but Possibility 2 seems to put the matter on Christ's shoulders. I don't think so. First, I've never known God to treat His children in that way, and second, our standing with God is NOT performance based. If it were, we'd ALL be in trouble!

It's been both my experience and my study of the Scriptures to see that those who "fall short of being welcomed into the fold" do so because of THEIR OWN resistance! "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." The only time in Scripture that I see someone not welcomed, it's because THAT PERSON has LONG rejected God's free gift, and now it's too late, i.e., Judgment Day has come!
 

veteran

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Jesus saying that in Matt.7:21 is expouded more by Him later in the chapter at Matt.25 with the parable of the ten virgins...

Matt 25:11-12
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us."
12 But he answered and said, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
(KJV)


The five wise virgins had a spare vessel of the Oil, those Jesus closed the door on did not. So what's the Oil represent? The Holy Spirit.

Who did our Lord Jesus say He would send to 'teach' us after His ascension per the latter chapters of John? The Holy Spirit Comforter. He said He would teach us all things.

Moreover, the five foolish virgins ask to borrow of the other virgin's spare vessel of Oil. The five foolish virgins are then told to go to the MARKET and BUY. What's the problem with that? YOU CANNOT BUY THAT OIL.

So what kind of thinking does that reveal about the five foolish virgins why the door was closed on them in the last hour of midnight?

It reveals they had relied on man's SYSTEMS for understanding instead of God by The Holy Spirit. Their understanding and practices were based on this world's ways and not God's.

Just so happens in Matthew 7 just prior to Christ's mention of those who will say, "...Lord, lord..." He had forewarned about false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing. So it's about the 'leaven' doctrines of men idea too, which is how to never come to the spare vessel of the Oil, for that means allowing men to supplant God's Truth out of the mind.

Another important point is the timing. At "midnight" is when the ten virgins awoke to go meet the bridegroom. That represents the time of Christ's second coming, the ending of the 11th hour that represents the end time events leading up to Christ's return. What all is to occur at the very end of this world in our near future, just PRIOR to Christ's return? The coming of a pseudo-messiah to Jerusalem, exalting himself in place of God and over all that is worshipped. Is that false worshp not an act of iniquity? How would Jesus see it when He comes?

In Luke 13 we have another example of this "...Lord, lord..." with Jesus telling them to get away from Him.

Luke 13:26-30
26 Then shall ye begin to say, "We have eaten and drunk in Thy presence, and Thou hast taught in our streets."
27 But He shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from Me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
(KJV)


Jesus was speaking that to the Jews in the cities on His way to Jerusalem.
 

Angelina

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As we had discussed, Christ stated in Matthew 7:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

This states that there are those that appear to be Christian on the outside, yet on the inside they never seemed to have gotten on Christ’s radar. Two possibilities:
  1. These individuals never accepted Christ’s sacrifice.
  2. These individuals accepted Christ but extra effort is required so as to be recognized?
Any thoughts? Are there other examples of individuals claiming to know Christ, yet they fall short of being welcomed into the fold?
Please note: - the gifts displayed in the bolded portion of scripture above are predominantly associated with the outworking of the Holy Spirit working through believer's within the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement of today. The key reason why God rejected them was because they were not doing God's will but their own....note again the beginning of this verse;

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 

Dodo_David

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Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV):

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Sadly, those "workers of lawlessness" will be able to convince others that the "workers of lawlessness" are being led by the Spirit when they aren't.
 

Angelina

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For me, I think this statement is quite simple. There will be those who THINK they are doing the Lord's work but have never taken the time to get to KNOW either Yeshua` or His Father beyond a head knowledge.

It doesn't matter HOW MUCH a person can do FOR God if he has never MET God. As can be seen in verse 22 above, these people will be able to prophesy, drive out demons, and perform many miracles while NEVER drawing near to God! Some claim that these can only be done in the Spirit, but clearly that's not the case!
Your O/P suggests that those who are exhibiting these gifts did not know God but in actual fact many of them did.... but they have gone astray following the desires of their own heart rather than the will of God. You cannot cast out demons without having authority to do so in the name of Jesus because authority to do such things are executed by the Holy Spirit who dwells within believer's....Take for instance the seven sons of Sceva as an example Acts 19. They tried to follow Paul in casting out demons although they did not know the Jesus he preached and guess what the evil spirit said to them?...“Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” Then the evil spirit they were trying to cast out of a man leaped on them, tore their clothes and they fled naked and bleeding...
 

veteran

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Angelina said:
Please note: - the gifts displayed in the bolded portion of scripture above are predominantly associated with the outworking of the Holy Spirit working through believer's within the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement of today. The key reason why God rejected them was because they were not doing God's will but their own....note again the beginning of this verse;

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
If you go back and read what Apostle Paul taught about spiritual gifts in 1 Cor.14, to prophesy means to 'teach'. So one cannot just single out certain Church denominations in this. It is especially about what is taught in the Churches, i.e., God's Word or something else.
 

Angelina

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So one cannot just single out certain Church denominations in this.
I agree vet that a particular denomination cannot be singled out...and I do not think that teaching is the same as prophecy. vs 6 defines them as two separate gifts. Also note 1 Corinth 12:28. I'm more focusing on the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement because I am from that background and it is where I see the greatest cause for concern due to a lack of solid biblical, foundational truths combined with an already strong leaning toward moving in the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit. Not all Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches are in err, just some who seem to put more emphasis on their leaders and Pastor as the final authority rather than on God.
 

guysmith

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Angelina said:
..... as I believe that many believers can start out the right way in Christ and end up being deceived by the enemy.. JM2c :huh:
I agree with this statement. You used the word “deceived.” The problem for someone deceived is that they don’t realize that they have been deceived. And like a snare, it is a trap which the individual does not realize they are in until the trap is sprung and then it is too late.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Just some random thoughts from me:

Matthew 7:21 appears to be associated with Matthew 8:11-12

Jews were expecting a "Kingdom" ... Jesus brought "Himself" instead

Jesus appears to be talking about Jews (Chosen Israel) (subjects of the Kingdom) not you and me (Gentile Christians)

Are we confusing "Kingdom" with "Salvation"

Another wildcard seems to be Matthew 7:22 where they claimed to cast out demons and perform miracles .... maybe we wrongly assume they were "Christians" .... maybe they were Jews doing those things before Christ had even arrived (using "Jehovah's Name" etc) and afterwards simply changed (to using Jesus name)

The 7 sons of Sceva come to mind Acts 19:14-15 ... notice they tried to "invoke" the name of Jesus Acts 19:13 (sounds just like what Jesus said in Matthew 7:22 )
 

Angelina

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Some good thoughts here...perhaps you are right and this verse may not be talking about Christians but the kingdom is associated with the Holy Spirit because one cannot enter the kingdom with out him. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption, the seal of a purchased possession through Christ's redeeming work on the cross.

I do not think that the seven sons of sceva are a good example of "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’"

since these things did not happen...I don't think God is going to be fooled by that example... :huh:
.
 

veteran

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Angelina said:
I agree vet that a particular denomination cannot be singled out...and I do not think that teaching is the same as prophecy. vs 6 defines them as two separate gifts. Also note 1 Corinth 12:28. I'm more focusing on the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement because I am from that background and it is where I see the greatest cause for concern due to a lack of solid biblical, foundational truths combined with an already strong leaning toward moving in the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit. Not all Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches are in err, just some who seem to put more emphasis on their leaders and Pastor as the final authority rather than on God.
I understand what you're saying, but I was raised in a Church opposite of type that did not believe in teaching Bible prophecy let alone believe in the idea of the cloven tongue of Pentecost. It's just as bad with those kind of Churches as the other, because like I said, what makes a Christian Church is whether or not God's Word is taught there vs. something else.
Arnie Manitoba said:
Just some random thoughts from me:

Matthew 7:21 appears to be associated with Matthew 8:11-12

Jews were expecting a "Kingdom" ... Jesus brought "Himself" instead

Jesus appears to be talking about Jews (Chosen Israel) (subjects of the Kingdom) not you and me (Gentile Christians)

Are we confusing "Kingdom" with "Salvation"

Another wildcard seems to be Matthew 7:22 where they claimed to cast out demons and perform miracles .... maybe we wrongly assume they were "Christians" .... maybe they were Jews doing those things before Christ had even arrived (using "Jehovah's Name" etc) and afterwards simply changed (to using Jesus name)

The 7 sons of Sceva come to mind Acts 19:14-15 ... notice they tried to "invoke" the name of Jesus Acts 19:13 (sounds just like what Jesus said in Matthew 7:22 )
Since the parable of the ten virgins in Matt.25 is about those awaiting the coming of the Bridegroom, and the five foolish virgins do start out with some of the Oil in their lamps, that is a strong suggestion they represent believers on Christ Jesus.

Some of my brethren have become deceived into believing the 'OSAS' doctrines of men, like they no longer can be deceived in these last days and thus can never appear spiritually naked and ashamed when Jesus does return. However, our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave those types of warnings to not be deceived to His Church for the end in many New Testament Scriptures.
 

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Matthew 2235 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

...which is a single sentence that addresses the first four commandments.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

.....which addresses the last six commandments.

I know for myself that I get caught up in studying the scriptures so much that I sometimes forget this.

In Yehoshua,
Guy
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Angelina.

Angelina said:
I disagree with your premise as I believe that many believers can start out the right way in Christ and end up being deceived by the enemy...take for instance "Dominionism" associated with the New Apostolic Reformation movement. Leaders like Peter Wagner, Cindy Jacobs, Rick Joyner, John Dawson and even Joyce Myers and Joel Osteen have been reported to have connections with them...did not start out this way. As a matter of fact many of these names have led multitudes to the cross that leads to salvation. However, The dominion theology has crept into and is subtly undermining many of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements today.. This theology teaches that it is our duty as Christians to take the world for God in order to impose biblical rule through modern day apostles ordained by God through the Church. They also believe that Jesus will not return until the church has "risen up" and "taken dominion" over all of the world's governments and institutions.
They believe that it is not a matter for discussion but rather a mandate from God. Dominionism is noted as a form of religious populism. There is also a branch of DT called Kingdom Now. They teach that God is looking for people to take back the world from Satan. The question is...did God tell us to do that? the answer is...no. He can do it himself without our help. The book of revelation does not say that believers are involved in any way accept by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimonies...God and his angels deal with the enemy in the end and not mankind. JM2c :huh:
Of course, that is your prerogative. However, I believe that once one is born into the family of God, one cannot be "unborn." Consequently, I don't believe that one can "lose his/her salvation" once he/she has been truly "saved." Actually, since the TRUE terminology from Scripture is "justification by God" instead of "salvation," then one is saying that he/she could "lose his/her justification by God!" Clearly, that's IMPOSSIBLE because "justification by God" is all on GOD'S ability and will, not on our own. It is UP TO GOD whether He will justify an individual! We can really do nothing about the sins we have already committed, and in truth, since God doesn't justify us on OUR merits but on those of the Messiah Yeshua`, then NOTHING we do or fail to do will affect whether God chooses to justify us! Ultimately, we are ALL sinners, no matter how "good" or "bad" we've been lately, because God "declares the end from the beginning." He sees all of time at once!

If one believes that one can "lose his/her salvation (justification by God)," then a Christian can "backslide" and become an unbeliever once again. If one does not believe one can "lose his/her salvation (justification by God)," then a "Christian" was never one to begin with if he can "backslide" and act like the unbeliever he/she truly is. Same result; different perspective.

As far as Dominionism and Dominion Theology are concerned, they are no different than the mentality of the Crusades. Furthermore, it's like Zionism to Orthodox Jews! However, we DO have some responsibility to make disciples of all nations, whether it's to the extreme of Dominionism or not. How you describe this Dominionism makes me think they would be prime candidates to believe in Postmillennialism, the eschatological belief system that suggests that the Messiah will not return until AFTER "the church has 'risen up' and 'taken dominion' over all of the world's governments and institutions."