Love your enemies

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Stranger

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Why did God not say to Israel, when they were to enter the promised land, to love your enemies?

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junobet

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I would suppose that God always wanted people to love their enemies, but most people didn’t realize this before God fully revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. I’m afraid many still don’t realize it.

When Jesus taught His disciples how to read Scripture it was not the gruesome bits of the OT He pointed to. In fact He made it clear that - no matter what the Pharisees and others may have made of these gruesome passages - we are not to hate our enemies and highlighted other passages of the OT:

43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy. 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you” (Mt 5:43-44)

For comparison:

"You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.” (Lev. 19:18)

If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, you are to certainly return it to him. 5 If you see your enemy’s donkey lying helpless under its load, you must not abandon it; rather, you are certainly to return it to him.” (Exo 23:4-5)

“Don’t rejoice when your enemy falls;
don’t let yourself be glad when he stumbles.”
(Pro 24:17)
 
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Stranger

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Junobet

But God could just as easily said 'love your enemies' as Israel entered the promised land. Why didn't he?

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lforrest

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Exodus 23:33

Back in that day the development of Israel held parallels with a person's spiritual journey. The nations were like corrupting influences. I don't know the details but a pattern is there.

The Lords advice regarding corrupting influences? Flee from sin... Fellowship with the world is enmity towards God.
 
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Stranger

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lforrest said:
Exodus 23:33

Back in that day the development of Israel held parallels with a person's spiritual journey. The nations were like corrupting influences. I don't know the details but a pattern is there.

The Lords advice regarding corrupting influences? Flee from sin... Fellowship with the world is enmity towards God.
Yes, those nations were the enemies. Why didn't God say to love them instead of destroying them?

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junobet

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Stranger said:
Junobet

But God could just as easily said 'love your enemies' as Israel entered the promised land. Why didn't he?

Stranger
Do you mean to ask why – given the theological claim that God is unchanging - the Bible often presents us with (seemingly) contradicting pictures about God and how we are to figure out which picture is more accurate?

Well, I suppose most posters here would prefer an explanation such as that of progressive revelation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Christianity)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1203.cfm

My own stance would be similar, but slightly different, in that my branch of Christianity thinks the Israelites’ ancestral tales speak less of actual history and more of a small people’s search for identity and spiritual journey towards God. While on this journey God revealed many great insights to the Biblical authors, but to begin with quite often their vision was still blurred and sometimes they got things plain wrong because of the “hardness of (their) hearts” (Comp.: Mt. 19:8). So personally I don’t believe God ever ordered genocide. I am well aware though, that many fundamentalists here will find this stance close to blasphemous.

But what probably all Christians can agree on is that we find the absolute self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ, who is God. And Jesus wasn’t at all the kind of Messiah the Jews expected from their study of their Holy Scriptures. He did not achieve His victory by becoming a military leader who defeated the Roman Empire and slayed all pagans. He achieved His victory over sin and death by letting Himself be crucified by the Romans, and shows His own love for His enemies by asking for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him.
So for Christians to love our enemies is the moral code to follow. There's no question about that.
 
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Stranger

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junobet said:
Do you mean to ask why – given the theological claim that God is unchanging - the Bible often presents us with (seemingly) contradicting pictures about God and how we are to figure out which picture is more accurate?

Well, I suppose most posters here would prefer an explanation such as that of progressive revelation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Christianity)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1203.cfm

My own stance would be similar, but slightly different, in that my branch of Christianity thinks the Israelites’ ancestral tales speak less of actual history and more of a small people’s search for identity and spiritual journey towards God. While on this journey God revealed many great insights to the Biblical authors, but to begin with quite often their vision was still blurred and sometimes they got things plain wrong because of the “hardness of (their) hearts” (Comp.: Mt. 19:8). So personally I don’t believe God ever ordered genocide. I am well aware though, that many fundamentalists here will find this stance close to blasphemous.

But what probably all Christians can agree on is that we find the absolute self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ, who is God. And Jesus wasn’t at all the kind of Messiah the Jews expected from their study of their Holy Scriptures. He did not achieve His victory by becoming a military leader who defeated the Roman Empire and slayed all pagans. He achieved His victory over sin and death by letting Himself be crucified by the Romans, and shows His own love for His enemies by asking for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him.
So for Christians to love our enemies is the moral code to follow. There's no question about that.
So, you're stance is that what is recorded is not actual history? And , that is because it doesn't agree with you're idea of God.

But then you want to give me Scripture to support your view of God. If I can't believe what God said He did to the enemies of Israel, why should I believe what you say God is doing?

God never told Joshua to love your enemies. Why?

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lforrest

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Stranger said:
Yes, those nations were the enemies. Why didn't God say to love them instead of destroying them?

Stranger
They were made into an example.

Also consider we were once enemies of God ourselves. We are to show grace to our enemies as they too may come to faith in Jesus. Then they would cease to be God's enemy.
But the invisible powers that drive people to be enemies will remain God's enemy. It is like we are a territory that is fought over and conquered by the Lord's army. Why destroy a territory when you can conquer it instead? (Ephesians 6:12) The real enemy is not to be loved.
 
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Stranger

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lforrest said:
They were made into an example.

Also consider we were once enemies of God ourselves. We are to show grace to our enemies as they too may come to faith in Jesus. Then they would cease to be God's enemy.
But the invisible powers that drive people to be enemies will remain God's enemy. It is like we are a territory that is fought over and conquered by the Lord's army. Why destroy a territory when you can conquer it instead? (Ephesians 6:12) The real enemy is not to be loved.
Indeed they were an example.

Israel also was dealing with spiritual enemies. All of the nations, including Egypt, had satanic spirits behind them. And these spirits motivated the people of these nations against God and therefore, against Israel. And God was coming against these wicked spiritual enemies as much as he was the people they controlled. But God didn't say to Israel, turn the other cheek. God didn't say to Israel, love your enemies. God said to destroy them, and many times it was complete destruction of men, women, children, livestock.

We acknowledge that God is righteous in doing this. Don't we? If God saves thousands we acknowledge God's righteous work. If God destroys thousands then we must acknowledge the same. Both are part of Who God is. It isn't a question of our approval, it is a question of, is it of God?

When Christ says 'love your enemies', is He in conflict with the destruction of these nations that God ordered? Is He saying it is wrong to hate the enemies of God as David did?

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lforrest

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God also knows the limit of grace, and understands the tendency of people to sin. If Israel fell into idolatry with the strict command to destroy the nations before them, how quickly would they have fallen if permitted peaceful coexistence.

Peaceful coexistence would not be possible even if Israel were able to resist the temptation of idolatry. When spiritual warfare rages it will spill over into corporeal conflict. The other nations would have waged war against the Jews if they were not able to corrupt them.
 

Stranger

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דוד חֵן (David) said:
Love your enemy ≠ let your enemy slaughter you.
I agree. But there are many Christians who think you should do just that.

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Stranger

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lforrest said:
God also knows the limit of grace, and understands the tendency of people to sin. If Israel fell into idolatry with the strict command to destroy the nations before them, how quickly would they have fallen if permitted peaceful coexistence.

Peaceful coexistence would not be possible even if Israel were able to resist the temptation of idolatry. When spiritual warfare rages it will spill over into corporeal conflict. The other nations would have waged war against the Jews if they were not able to corrupt them.
I agree. And if God is going to establish a nation of His own people, there will be spiritual and physical warfare. And if both spiritual and physical warfare are necessary to create such a nation, then it has to be true that both are necessary to maintain such a nation.

And to maintain a nation as such, a military is necessary as is a police force, as is the death penalty. But then others will say the Christian is to turn the other cheek. You must love your enemies as Christ said. You're not supposed to kill.

But God who said thou shalt not kill told Israel to destroy her enemies. Thus it is not a blanket commandment. It doesn't mean there is not a time to kill. It doesn't mean in every instance you turn the other cheek.

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Born_Again

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junobet said:
Do you mean to ask why – given the theological claim that God is unchanging - the Bible often presents us with (seemingly) contradicting pictures about God and how we are to figure out which picture is more accurate?

Well, I suppose most posters here would prefer an explanation such as that of progressive revelation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Christianity)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1203.cfm

My own stance would be similar, but slightly different, in that my branch of Christianity thinks the Israelites’ ancestral tales speak less of actual history and more of a small people’s search for identity and spiritual journey towards God. While on this journey God revealed many great insights to the Biblical authors, but to begin with quite often their vision was still blurred and sometimes they got things plain wrong because of the “hardness of (their) hearts” (Comp.: Mt. 19:8). So personally I don’t believe God ever ordered genocide. I am well aware though, that many fundamentalists here will find this stance close to blasphemous.

But what probably all Christians can agree on is that we find the absolute self-revelation of God in Jesus Christ, who is God. And Jesus wasn’t at all the kind of Messiah the Jews expected from their study of their Holy Scriptures. He did not achieve His victory by becoming a military leader who defeated the Roman Empire and slayed all pagans. He achieved His victory over sin and death by letting Himself be crucified by the Romans, and shows His own love for His enemies by asking for the forgiveness of those who crucified Him.
So for Christians to love our enemies is the moral code to follow. There's no question about that.
Why would God say He did something when He did not do it? How does that even makes sense in your mind? I'm sure you've heard the saying "The Bible isnt trail mix. You cant pick and choose what parts you want"

I like the use of the word "progressive" Gay rights are supposedly "progressive" as well.
 

lforrest

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Stranger said:
I agree. And if God is going to establish a nation of His own people, there will be spiritual and physical warfare. And if both spiritual and physical warfare are necessary to create such a nation, then it has to be true that both are necessary to maintain such a nation.

And to maintain a nation as such, a military is necessary as is a police force, as is the death penalty. But then others will say the Christian is to turn the other cheek. You must love your enemies as Christ said. You're not supposed to kill.

But God who said thou shalt not kill told Israel to destroy her enemies. Thus it is not a blanket commandment. It doesn't mean there is not a time to kill. It doesn't mean in every instance you turn the other cheek.

Stranger
If you consider the economy of saving souls, it is better to protect your own people first so they have the opertunity to be saved. If we consider personal enemies it makes more sense to turn the other cheek, as they may be turned by your atypical behavior. But never are we to hate any enemy.

I believe putting the Kingdom first gives us the proper perspective to judge when to turn the cheek or defend ourselves and others.
 
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Stranger

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lforrest said:
If you consider the economy of saving souls, it is better to protect your own people first so they have the opertunity to be saved. If we consider personal enemies it makes more sense to turn the other cheek, as they may be turned by your atypical behavior. But never are we to hate any enemy.

I believe putting the Kingdom first gives us the proper perspective to judge when to turn the cheek or defend ourselves and others.
So you think David was wrong in hating the enemies of God? ( Ps. 139:20-22) And he wasn't just viewing things in a 'spiritual' sense. Or, was God wrong in hating Esau? (Malachi 1:2-3,Rom. 9:13)

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lforrest

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It is for God to judge David. He was not given the teachings from Jesus Christ that we now take for granted.

God is also permitted to hate who he wants. He knows who will repent and who will not. His anger slowly builds even while he blesses those who hate him.
 

Stranger

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lforrest said:
It is for God to judge David. He was not given the teachings from Jesus Christ that we now take for granted.

God is also permitted to hate who he wants. He knows who will repent and who will not. His anger slowly builds even while he blesses those who hate him.
Im asking you. Was David wrong in hating the enemies of God? Your crawfishing.

If God hates, and we are created in the image of God, then hate is part of our constitution also. Correct?

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junobet

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Born_Again said:
Why would God say He did something when He did not do it? How does that even makes sense in your mind? I'm sure you've heard the saying "The Bible isnt trail mix. You cant pick and choose what parts you want"

I like the use of the word "progressive" Gay rights are supposedly "progressive" as well.
Well, Born-Again, Charles Hodge most certainly did not use the word “progressive” in the way that it sounds like to you. I’m told many Conservative US Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are rather fond of his theological views:
Progressive revelation in Christianity is the concept that the sections of the Bible that were written later contain a fuller revelation of God compared to the earlier sections. For instance, the theologian Charles Hodge wrote,
"The progressive character of divine revelation is recognized in relation to all the great doctrines of the Bible... What at first is only obscurely intimated is gradually unfolded in subsequent parts of the sacred volume, until the truth is revealed in its fulness."[1]
The ultimate revelation of God is understood to be found in Jesus Christ as revealed in the Gospels. For example, the New Testament is to be used to better understand and interpret the Old Testament. Likewise, all sections of the Bible are believed accurate in conservative Christian theology."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_(Christianity)
As for your question concerning my personal views see my followíng reply to Stranger.
 

junobet

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Stranger said:
So, you're stance is that what is recorded is not actual history? And , that is because it doesn't agree with you're idea of God.
No, it is because my church (good old German Lutheran/Reformed/United) takes the Bible seriously enough to throw its best academics at it to get a better understanding. We tend to accept their findings even when we happen to find them to contradict our traditions. In the case of the Book of Joshua pretty much all scholars agree that it is wildly unhistorical and that there was no such thing as the conquest of Canaan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joshua#Historical_and_archaeological_evidence
IMHO Fundamentalist evangelicals on the other hand tend to bury their head in the sand and bend the Bible’s texts over backwards to make them fit their doctrine on the Bible.

But then you want to give me Scripture to support your view of God. If I can't believe what God said He did to the enemies of Israel, why should I believe what you say God is doing?
First of all I don’t share the cold modern day disdain for fiction but stand in awe of the deep divine truths fiction and poetry can convey. Secondly, if you want to find out what level of historicity to expect from a given text, you’ll first have to look at its genre. Of all the books of the Bible the Gospels and Acts come closest to the kind of info that we in the 21th century would expect from a historian.
And of course you should not believe what I say God is doing, you should believe what your living faith in Jesus Christ tells you what God is doing. If you read the Bible without that living faith, all you’ll get is dead letters.

God never told Joshua to love your enemies. Why?

Stranger
Because love of enemy wasn’t high on the list of virtues of those who wrote and composed the Book of Joshua at around out 600 BC. Their intent was to point out their God’s power in order to establish Israel’s identity as a nation as opposed to the tribes and nations surrounding them. They were divinely inspired in many ways, but they did not have the full revelation of Jesus Christ yet.
Now, if I agreed with you that the Book of Joshua is 1:1 history, that would leave me with the theological question of how to console the genocide it describes with God being unchanging and omnibenevolent. But it would not change the ethical conclusions, that both fundamentalist and mainline Christians must inevitably arrive at: Whether we believe that God ordered the murder of women and children back in the late bronce-age or not, our ultimate moral authority is Jesus Christ. From our previous conversation I gather that you find His command to love our enemies very inconvenient and hard to put into practice, but the narrative of the Conquest of Canaan doesn’t water it down in the slightest. Mt 5:43-48 means exactly what it says with no ifs and buts attached.
 
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