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Marriage

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Alpha and Omega, Jun 7, 2008.

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  1. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

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    Scriptural proofs please for the followingcan we divorce?can we re-marry if divorced?can we marry whom we like? Just read a verse (I cannot recall which one) where it says that an Israelite may not marry a non-Israelite.Once married can we practice birth control? for example condoms, excluding of course abortion if one sees abortion as birth control and not murder.
     
  2. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;51911)
    Scriptural proofs please for the followingcan we divorce?
    Scripture says we cannot separate the marriage covenant except by death, because God joined it:Genesis 2:21-24 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." Ephesians 5:28-33 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband. Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 1 Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
    can we re-marry if divorced?
    Scripture says that since we cnnot separate what He has joined, when we attempt to and remarry, we actually enter into adulterous relationships because He still regards us as married to the one we supposedly divorced:Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Mark 10: 10-12 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.” Romans 7:3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. There is actually an example of a man who "divorced" his spouse, and God says his divorced spouse is still his wife by covenant after the divorce:Malachi 2:13-17 "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." You have wearied the LORD with your words Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and He delights in them," or, "Where is the God of justice?" According to God, a Christian may never initiate a divorce under any circumstance, and that if separation occurs we have two options and two only, remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to our spouse: 1 Corinthians 7: 10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.SealedEternal
     
  3. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    Lets take a look at SEs list of verses, shall we?(SealedEternal;47271523)
    Matthew 19:3-6 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?"
    Firstly, this rendering is somewhat lacking.Their question doesnt casually ask Him if a man can divorce for any reason, thus making it sound like His response means no man can divorce for any reason, but instead they are asking HIm if they can divorce for the broad range of reasons they had been divorcing over that they claim Moses commanded of them.
    And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"
    And ?This is supposedly to mean that 'one flesh' is some unbreakable bond, I suppose...maybe that is why it is highlighted ?*IF* that were the case, then what does that say about Moses and his allowing divorce and remarriage ?Some godly prophet, ehThe ONLY woman ever literally made of her husbands own flesh was Eve.Eve was a foreshadow of what wives should be...as their husbands own flesh.What mans flesh leaves him and betrays him ? And if it does, is he not permitted to cut it off ?Paul conclusively proves that 'one flesh' is sex in 1 cor 6:16...not some mystical, unbreakable bond.Within marriage it is where the God created it to be.Outside marriage it is fornication and sin.READERS SEE->Click->>> What is ''one flesh'' and what is it that God joins together
    So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
    And?LET no man separate.Nothing about Christs words say that man 'CANNOT' separate.The word there is Chorizo (put asunder/separate).Paul shows us conclusively that man CAN CHORIZO in 1 Corinthians 7 and even says to let it be so himself.Hardly sounds like a 'CANNOT' situation to me.READERS SEE->Click->>> "Let not man Put Asunder" vs "let the unbeliever depart"
    7-12 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given."For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
    Notice what I said before is accurate.They had twisted Moses allowing them to divorce frivolously into a 'commandment' to do so.THAT was their error.Instead of understanding that Deut 24:1-4 WASNT a permission to divorce, but instead was a REGULATION meant to STOP these divorces by forcing the man to give her a writ and making him understand that once remarried she can NEVER be his wife again.The Jews even managed to pervert this writ of divorce thing by throwing out a wife and refusing to give her the writ so technically she was still married and could not remarry.As for the eunuch thing, even Paul shows that it is better if a man does not marry and has the gift of continence. It IS better if a man doesnt have to marry and can devote his entire day to the Lords work.This is no evidence against remarriage.
    Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
    The one flesh and separating issues were covered.Here are the links againREADERS SEE->Click->>> "Let not man Put Asunder" vs "let the unbeliever depart"READERS SEE->Click->>> What is ''one flesh'' and what is it that God joins together
    Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.”
    This one is no different than the 'no sign' passages.One says No sign will be given in an absolute manner, the other shows no sign EXCEPT the sign of Jonah.Some are unable to harmonize these so they pretend like the Jews were asking for some OTHER sign and that was what Jesus was saying wouldnt be given, but the fact is that the passages say clearly what they were asking for ..a sign from heaven.In Marks account NO sign will be givenIn Matthews NO sign EXCEPT the sign of Jonah is stated.the passage above simply does not contain the exception that Christ gives in Matthew 5 and 19.As a side note, SE continually complains about people using the two exception clauses, but then he presents verses like the above.Apparently we are not permitted, in his view, to present any counter evidence
    Genesis 2:22-24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
    Great, I agree.And 'one flesh' is consummation of the marriage....ie 'sex'.READERS SEE->Click->>> What is ''one flesh'' and what is it that God joins together
    Matthew 5:31-33"It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
    Funny that SE doesnt highlight the 'EXCEPT for her unchasity' part there, isnt it ?Secondly, notice how he has highlighted the part about making false vows?See, he seemingly presumes that if you end up divorced that your vows were given falsely to begin with.But see, what apparently hasnt been taken into account here is Numbers 30 that shows that Vows CAN be made that ARE absolutely sincere, and it is possible for someone else to cause those vows to be taken out of the way and forgiven by God.Im guessing that even in the case of Numbers 30 presented in the following link that SE may tell this woman to fulfill her vows even when God has forgiven her for not doing soREADERS SEE->Click->>> Are vows always ''unbreakableAs I said, there is always more to the story than these folks want to tell.
    1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
    What David isnt pointing out is that this is speaking to two different groups.See what he apparently 'forgot' to highlight in that passage ?"But to the rest I say"To most of us english speaking peoples 'the rest' is typically in contrast to the previous item."you 3 stand over here...THE REST of you go over there"Two entirely different set of instructions to two different groups.To the EQUALLY yoked there is commandment to return to the marriage because BOTH should be willing to listen and obey Gods instruction.To THE REST whom are UNequally yoked with a nonbeliever there is no commandment given by the Lord (by Pauls own words) and to these concession is given that wasnt given to the previous group.This is because we cannot control unbelievers or expect them to obey Gods words. Therefore to these they are not in bondage to that marriage if it ends.READERS SEE->Click->>> "Remain Unmarried or reconcile” vs "not in bondage"
    I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
    These two are probably the ONLY two verses that actually say what these folks claim without their being distorted into something they arent.The problem is that, again, they do not give the entire story.Firstly this 'law' doesnt exist anywhere in the written word.I spent quite a long time trying to track down this 'law' that says the wife is bound to the husband until his death and it simply doesnt seem to exist in the written law at all.So we conclude that either scripture is lying about it....or....or that it is an unspoken law that was set into motion with the very first couple in the garden.Perfect place to get the ground rules down, no?Jump forward a few hundred years with the newly liberated Hebrew people following Moses around in the desert.This man Moses was called by God to lead Israel out of Egypt and to teach them His law before they would go into the promise land.What we find peculiar here is that supposedly Moses took it upon himself to trash this 'law' of marriage given by God by actually allowing men put away their wives.And not only that, Moses literally writes down law detailing out HOW to do it !And then to top it off, Moses shows that the woman can go and remarry and once she does she can NEVER return to her former husband.This man Moses sounds to be somewhat of a false prophet *IF* this 'law' of marriage is absolute as some proclaim.Does God cater His law TO suit the sins of man ?Did Moses actually GIVE permission to divorce ?The answer is no...Moses DIDNT give anyone permission to divorce in Deut 24:1-4.The passage isnt permitting anything. It is laying out regulations to try to exptirpate these divorces for 'some uncleaness' which we have shown is for no valid reasoning at all.READERS SEE->Click->>> Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sinREADERS SEE->Click->>> Moses...the biggest sinner and lawbreaker of all timeIn conclusion, the point is that ANYONE can push out a few verses and make some claims.If anyone is interested in seeing this put into action I challenge you to run out and find your friendly neighborhood HyperCalvinist.The supporting passages they can throw your way to prove their views can blow the doors off of SE's passages here that are very easily harmonized.The HyperCalvinists argument is so overwhelming tho, that I do suggest that you take much care in looking that doctrine over...only do so if you are grounded in Gods word because it can be convincing since there is very little to combat it with in scripture.It takes more than parroting off 9 verses to understand Gods WHOLE word
     
  4. Jackie D

    Jackie D New Member

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    Let's not forget that God Almighty Himself, who spoke of His marriage to Israel called them harlots and adulterers toward Him. Since we were told that we cannot divorce unless less there is adultry committed, perhaps we should take a real good look at what adultry is according to the adultrous nation of Israel and how God viewed their harlotry. Keep in mind that we use the word adultry to mean cheating sexually on our spouse. But how could Israel do such a thing with God? They cannot literally, for God and His people don't have sexual relations. The type of adultry that Israel committed was in many forms. According to my understanding, committing adultry against God would be placing anything above our relationship with Him and becoming unrfaitful in our marriage to Him this way. This unfaithfulness leading us to deeper sin and separation from Him.The other point I would like to make is that the word says "what God has joined together, let no man separate." The question I have is regarding the first part of the statement. "what God has joined together". Many claim that they are in the will of God regarding their chosen partners? I have to question their surety on this, unless our surety comes from a deep communication with the Lord and asking Him to keep our eyes and ears open for ANYTHING that might indicate He would not have us involved in. Too many people marry without consulting or inviting God to guide them and if the decision to marry is made that God be the center always of the marriage. I am in no way advocating that people should divorce because of these things. I am merely asking, if people take the time to do these things the likelihood of their marriage being lasting and truly what God would have us in, how can the marriage fail? If God is for us, who then can be against us?blessings
     
  5. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    Great post Jackie [​IMG]One thing I wonder about is the fact that in Ezra 10 we see that the Jews put away these wives that they were not to take in the first place. I wouldnt apply it myself without a clear NT precept, but in my first marriage I was given instruction against marrying my first wife in almost an audible voice.He literally told me what she would do and that she would do it 'many times' (exactly what was said) BEFORE we were married.I remember talking to Him and saying that she would change (she never did) and that I could handle it (obviously I couldnt).Im neither here nor there on that sort of thing doctrinally speaking, but I wonder sometimes that if we have prayed for a spouse and God gives us some directly (I literally had been given a first name and some other details after years of prayer on the matter), if we take someone else in disobedience if what you show is the case....that it was not joined by God.Again, I dont have any doctrinal views about it, probably never will, but its interesting to note that I am still paying 2 decades later for marrying my first wife knowing that I had been given very clear answers to prayer about the wife HE had chosen for me....and yet I let physical desire and a belief that anyone can change cause me to marry someone else even with His Spirit screaming in my ears not to do it (yes, young and ignorant men will do some ignorant things).Anyway, just some thoughts about your post [​IMG]
     
  6. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    (Alpha and Omega;51911)
    can we divorce?
    Can we? Yes.Should we? it depends.
    can we re-marry if divorced?
    can we ? YesShould we? it depends.
    can we marry whom we like? Just read a verse (I cannot recall which one) where it says that an Israelite may not marry a non-Israelite.
    We're not Israelites under law.We CAN marry anyone we want, but again, should we ?
    Once married can we practice birth control? for example condoms, excluding of course abortion if one sees abortion as birth control and not murder.
    Birth control is up to the individual who knows if they should have children or not.Abortion is something that should only be done in an extreme case such as the mothers life being in danger (which obviously is going to most likely take the life of the child too in many cases)
     
  7. Jackie D

    Jackie D New Member

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    (FoC;51921)
    Im neither here nor there on that sort of thing doctrinally speaking, but I wonder sometimes that if we have prayed for a spouse and God gives us some directly (I literally had been given a first name and some other details after years of prayer on the matter), if we take someone else in disobedience if what you show is the case....that it was not joined by God.Again, I dont have any doctrinal views about it, probably never will, but its interesting to note that I am still paying 2 decades later for marrying my first wife knowing that I had been given very clear answers to prayer about the wife HE had chosen for me....and yet I let physical desire and a belief that anyone can change cause me to marry someone else even with His Spirit screaming in my ears not to do it (yes, young and ignorant men will do some ignorant things).Anyway, just some thoughts about your post [​IMG]
    My take is that in the OT we are given numerous examples of disobedience, forgiveness and consequence. David lost his first born son because of his actions with Bethsheba. Moses never got to enter the land of milk and honey because of his disobedience. AND there is nothing in the NT that I have ever read that indicates that forgiveness equals no consequential price to pay for disobedience to God and the laws of the land. We are refined by fire, fire being trial, enduring and, I believe whole heartedly, consequence. I too am quite familiar with paying the price still and yet for acts of disobedience and willfulness 20 yrs later.blessings
     
  8. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    (Jackie D;51924)
    My take is that in the OT we are given numerous examples of disobedience, forgiveness and consequence. David lost his first born son because of his actions with Bethsheba. Moses never got to enter the land of milk and honey because of his disobedience. AND there is nothing in the NT that I have ever read that indicates that forgiveness equals no consequential price to pay for disobedience to God and the laws of the land. We are refined by fire, fire being trial, enduring and, I believe whole heartedly, consequence. I too am quite familiar with paying the price still and yet for acts of disobedience and willfulness 20 yrs later.blessings
    Its an odd one, for sure.Even my daughter, the offspring of my first marriage, seems to be paying for my disobedience in marrying when I knew not to.Im not sure I want to go as far as comparing it to Davids experience, but what I do know is if I hadnt married then when being shown not to do so, Id have had no child and neither my daughter from that marriage, nor myself, would be paying any price at all.Sadly, even my grandson, the son of that daughter, will seemingly not escape this black hole.I love my daughter and grandson with all my heart, but seeing what has come about because of my first marriage, Id gladly go back and never marry and not have had either of them come into this world to face what they are.
     
  9. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    Btw, another odd thing is that in that first marriage we did lose the first child.For some reason they werent able to explain the baby started bleeding and died about 2 days before she was to be born.Id add some things that were given from the Lord to me about it before she died, but I have to be careful about whom is reading this thread and what is said for them to twist.
     
  10. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Has this already been addressed?In 1 Cor 7:39-40 --- 39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment — and I think I also have the Spirit of God. NKJVIn Gal 5:16-18 -- 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. NKJVIn the first she is bound by the law, in the second she is not under the law. How does this apply on this thread?Richard [​IMG]
     
  11. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    (RichardBurger;51929)
    Has this already been addressed?In 1 Cor 7:39-40 --- 39 A wife is bound by law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my judgment — and I think I also have the Spirit of God. NKJVIn Gal 5:16-18 -- 16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. NKJVIn the first she is bound by the law, in the second she is not under the law. How does this apply on this thread?Richard [​IMG]
    Two entirely unrelated issues.We are not under MOSAIC law.There IS a 'law' of marriage that will exist as long as human marriages do.
     
  12. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    (Jackie D;51920)
    Let's not forget that God Almighty Himself, who spoke of His marriage to Israel called them harlots and adulterers toward Him.
    And yet He always said He was waiting for them to return to Him:Jeremiah 3:12-22 "Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say, 'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD; 'I will not look upon you in anger. For I am gracious,' declares the LORD; 'I will not be angry forever. 'Only acknowledge your iniquity, That you have transgressed against the LORD your God And have scattered your favors to the strangers under every green tree, And you have not obeyed My voice,' declares the LORD. 'Return, O faithless sons,' declares the LORD; 'For I am a master to you, And I will take you one from a city and two from a family, And I will bring you to Zion.' "Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding. "It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, 'The ark of the covenant of the LORD.' And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again. "At that time they will call Jerusalem 'The Throne of the LORD,' and all the nations will be gathered to it, to Jerusalem, for the name of the LORD; nor will they walk anymore after the stubbornness of their evil heart. "In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance. "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me. "Surely, as a woman treacherously departs from her lover, So you have dealt treacherously with Me, O house of Israel," declares the LORD. A voice is heard on the bare heights, The weeping and the supplications of the sons of Israel; Because they have perverted their way, They have forgotten the LORD their God. "Return, O faithless sons, I will heal your faithlessness." "Behold, we come to You; For You are the LORD our God.
    Since we were told that we cannot divorce unless less there is adultry committed, perhaps we should take a real good look at what adultry is according to the adultrous nation of Israel and how God viewed their harlotry.
    Jesus said that adultery is the sin one commits by remarrying after a divorce, but nowhere in scripture does it say that adultery is grounds for divorce:Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.” SealedEternal
     
  13. Jackie D

    Jackie D New Member

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    SealedEternal
    Jesus said that adultery is the sin one commits by remarrying after a divorce, but nowhere in scripture does it say that adultery is grounds for divorce:
    you are absolutely right. I was not saying that we are told this through scripture but that much of the "church" and their doctrine states that adultry is the only grounds for divorce. blessings
     
  14. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    Always with PART of the facts with you, isnt it David ? [​IMG]
    And yet He always said He was waiting for them to return to Him:Jeremiah 3:12-22 "Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say, 'Return, faithless Israel,' declares the LORD; 'I will not look upon you in anger. For I am gracious,' declares the LORD; 'I will not be angry forever. 'Only acknowledge your iniquity, That you have transgressed against the LORD your Go...............have perverted their way, They have forgotten the LORD their God. "Return, O faithless sons, I will heal your faithlessness." "Behold, we come to You; For You are the LORD our God.
    And even LATER God ENDED the covenant with this adulterous nation.
    And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. (Zec 11:10-13 KJV)​
    Any ideas about whos price was 30 pieces of silver ? [​IMG]Christ is the one who ended that covenant.Christ is the one who died to ratify His NEW covenant.Metaphorically God IS a remarried divorcee no matter how you folks try to distract from the fact.
     
  15. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51932)
    Jesus said that adultery is the sin one commits by remarrying after a divorce, but nowhere in scripture does it say that adultery is grounds for divorce:
    Actually scripture shows quite conclusively that sexual immorality IS grounds for divorce.You simply change the definition of 'porneia' to suit your needs and to reject anything that gets in your doctrines way.
    Matthew 5:31-32 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
    "except for the reason of unchastity"'nuff said
    fornicationG4202πορνείαporneiapor-ni'-ahFrom G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.​
    Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
    One flesh is sex...not any sort of unbreakable bond.READERS SEE->Click->>> [url="http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14]What is ''one flesh'' and what is it that God joins together[/url]And Paul himself shows that man CAN separate (CHORIZO)...Christ never actually SAYING man "CANNOT" as some of you assert.Christ is teaching a precept, not an absolute.Otherwise Paul is a liar.READERS SEE->Click->>> "Let not man Put Asunder" vs "let the unbeliever depart"
    Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.” SealedEternal
    Mat 5:32 But I say to you that whoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery*. And whoever shall marry her who is put away commits adultery.Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is put away commits adultery.fornicationG4202πορνείαporneiapor-ni'-ahFrom G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.​
     
  16. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    Premarital sexual immorality was the one cause for divorce under the Old Covenant Law, but we are no longer under the Laws of Moses, and the type of "divorce" you are trying to justify is not for that cause anyway, so you are trying to create a loophole that doesn't exist. Do you keep the Laws of Moses yourself? If so, what was the provision Jesus is quoting there? Deuteronomy 24:1 "When a man takes (lâqach) a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house"The Law only permitted a type of divorce for men who discovered their wives to be sexually defiled when they married her. That is what Jesus is referring to, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand which is divorce for fully married people under the New Covenant, which Jesus defines as adultery, or married people having relations with people who are not his or her spouse:Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery (has sexual relations with someone who is not his or her spouse while married), and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery (has sexual relations with another man's spouse).” Clearly Jesus doesn't believe that man can separate what He has joined, nor does He regard second marriages afterward as anything more than adulterous affairs:Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? 6 "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." Mark 10: 6-12 "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery." SealedEternal
     
  17. SealedEternal

    SealedEternal New Member

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    By the way, your own proof texts disprove your position. Mat 5:32 But I say to you that whoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery*. And whoever shall marry her who is put away commits adultery.Mat 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is put away commits adultery.First of all, Mat 5:32 says that the woman who is innocent of fornication is made to commit adultery by her husband unjustly divorcing her. Of course you claim that the abandoned party is free from the marriage and can legally remarry without committing adultery, but Jesus says that she can't, and that even the innocent victim of a treacherous husband is guilty of adultery to remarrry, even though he's the one that divorced her. Clearly divorce doesn't dissolve the marriage or neither could be adulterers.Secondly, your position is illogical because according to you adultery is both the grounds for divorce and the sin one commits in remarriage at the same time. That means that all divorces that don't involve adultery, with subsequent remarriages become adultery, and thus the exception is met and the divorce is legal and the adultery ceases to be adultery. That makes all divorces and remarriages legal because they are adulterous, and committing the sin of adultery becomes key in making the person not in sin. Obviously Jesus didn't make such an error in reasoning and teach an illogical doctrine.Thirdly, both of your proof text say that everyone who marries the divorced woman are committing adultery, or in other words having relations with another man's wife, even though he divorced her. Clearly that also proves that divorce cannot separate what God has joined, because if it did, then adultery could not be an issue.SealedEternal
     
  18. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51947)
    By the way, your own proof texts disprove your position.
    Hardly.That you fail to understand them because youre so intent on doing away with anything that gets in your way means pretty much nothing...as per usual.
    First of all, Mat 5:32 says that the woman who is innocent of fornication is made to commit adultery by her husband unjustly divorcing her.
    Actually it doesnt.READERS SEE->Click->>> "Causes her to commit adultery" The ACTUAL greek there doesnt mean 'commits adultery' in 5:32a, but instead means 'to be adultered', unlike the other instances.He causes her 'to be adultered' by putting her away without cause.So again you have failed to actually UNDERSTAND the details.See, David *I* went beyond the english and looked into the mother tongues of ALL of my evidence... [​IMG]editWell, readers, Ive tried twice to include a cut from an interlinear bible (see the attachement)Try saving it to your desktop. The word in question is far left, bottom line, compared to the word far right.
     
  19. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    (SealedEternal;51947)
    Secondly, your position is illogical because according to you adultery is both the grounds for divorce and the sin one commits in remarriage at the same time.
    Semantics.This is why you are called 'legalist' by many.You are so intent on scrutinizing the letter that the intent slips right by you.
    That means that all divorces that don't involve adultery, with subsequent remarriages become adultery, and thus the exception is met and the divorce is legal and the adultery ceases to be adultery. That makes all divorces and remarriages legal because they are adulterous, and committing the sin of adultery becomes key in making the person not in sin. Obviously Jesus didn't make such an error in reasoning and teach an illogical doctrine.
    Jesus made no error.All I see is David reading too much into the intent which is Christ condemning frivolous divorce to remarry.Christ is showing them that even tho Moses had not declared what they were doing to be sin, that it IS sin to divorce an innocent spouse to remarry.Had you not distorted the actual intent of Deut 24:1-4 so terribly, this might add up for you.
    Thirdly, both of your proof text say that everyone who marries the divorced woman are committing adultery, or in other words having relations with another man's wife, even though he divorced her. Clearly that also proves that divorce cannot separate what God has joined, because if it did, then adultery could not be an issue.SealedEternal
    Again you pervert what is said.NOTHING in the greek shows any ongoing 'committing' of adultery as your false doctrines try to claim.Jesus is declaring what MOses didnt in the law, that these divorces for 'some uncleaness'...ie NO just cause at all...ARE causing adultery to be committed....they werent guiltless as they supposed.READERS SEE->Click->>> “Committeth adultery” The Present Indicative deceptionDivorce DOES end the marriage or Moses was a lying heretic who participated in sin when he allowed the divorced wife to remarry.READERS SEE->Click->>> [url="http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=52]Moses...the biggest sinner and lawbreaker of all time[/url]Another round ? [​IMG]
     
  20. FoC

    FoC New Member

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    Tell me, Davey....do you see the outcome being any different this time around ? [​IMG]
     
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