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Mary's Infidelity

Discussion in 'Christian Newbies' started by Webers_Home, Jul 18, 2020.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Matt 1:18-19 . . Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His
    mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she
    was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being
    a righteous man, and not wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away
    secretly.

    A righteous man is defined by Luke 1:6 as observing all the Lord's
    commandments and regulations blamelessly. The word "all" suggests to me
    that Joseph wasn't compliant with just some of the Lord's wishes, nor even
    most, rather, the whole ball of wax. That's an amazing track record.


    FAQ: Wasn't Joseph supposed to have his betrothed stoned for sleeping
    around? (Deut 22:23-27)


    A: The covenanted law that Moses' people agreed upon with God in the Old
    Testament requires the testimony of a minimum of two witnesses for the
    prosecution in capital cases.

    Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he
    that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he
    shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him
    to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt
    put the evil away from among you.

    Sans witnesses even Joseph himself became a suspect; in point of fact, the
    prime suspect.


    NOTE: Compare the woman caught in the act of adultery (John 8:1-11).
    Jesus had to dismiss the woman because there was no one willing to testify
    against her. And even had he known by omniscience that the woman was
    guilty, the Lord couldn't testify against her because he wasn't a legitimate
    witness; and besides, he would've been the only one whereas the Jews'
    covenanted law requires a minimum of two.
    _
     
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  2. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    Lu 1:6 says they were both righteous.
    And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
    (Luk 1:6)
     
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  3. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Curiously, the Bible doesn't say one way or the other whether Mary was
    righteous, i.e. compliant with the Lord's commandments and regulations
    blamelessly. But by means of a judicious blend of extrapolation and fact;
    we might at least suggest that she was.

    For example:

    Luke 1:30 . . Mary, you have found favor with God.

    The Greek word translated "favor" is also translated grace in quite a few
    places. So we could translate Luke 1:30 like this:

    "you have found grace with God."

    That wasn't the first time someone found grace with God. Noah did too.

    Gen 6:8 . . Noah found grace in the eyes of The Lord.

    Noah and Joseph had something in common.

    Gen 6:9 . . Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his
    time,

    I might be taking liberties here; but if Noah found grace with God, and he
    was righteous and blameless among the people of his time; then seeing as
    how Mary found grace with God, then maybe she too was righteous and
    blameless among the people of her time.
    _
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  4. Pearl

    Pearl Well-Known Member

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    Not after the angel appeared to him.
     
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  5. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    But consider this:

    "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
    There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
    Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
    But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
    He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
    But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
    And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John 5:31-37

    Is he not saying that the second witness on his behalf is His Father, that is, God? So then if God is our witness, what of us? Are we not to be like Him?

    Remember also when Elijah stood alone before the 450 prophets of Baal [I Kings 18]? But when God responded by lighting the fire under the sacrifice was that not the second necessary witness to the truth?

    Food for thought, no?
     
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  6. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    The covenanted law that Moses' people agreed upon with God as per
    Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy allows for neither divine
    witnesses nor divine executioners in capital cases. It requires the people to
    police themselves. In point of fact it's been that way since Noah came off the
    ark; beginning with the capital crime of murder.

    Gen 9:4-6 . . Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will
    require it. And from every man, from every man's brother I will require the
    life of man. Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed.

    In other words: criminal justice in this world is solely Man's responsibility;
    we can't lay this off on God lest we ourselves end up facing God for
    dereliction of duty. This goes for Christians too. (Rom 13:1-6)
    _
     
  7. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    The Scripture says they caught her in adultery, and chose to drag her to Jesus to test/ trap/ Him if they could.
    Jesus did not have to dismiss the woman at all.
    Jesus did as the Father directed Jesus to do.
     
  8. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Even before then, Joseph was raised righteously, Torah Taught, and did what was right, mercifully and righteously even before the angel appeared to him.
    He was never required to seek stoning of Mary, ever, no, not ever, by Torah nor by Yahweh nor by the Prophets or Psalms or Tanakh or Law or law or Jesus' Way.
     
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  9. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Amen. This is Truth.
    however,
    Other religions, and even 'Christian' , often is mixed up and calls unrighteous what God calls Righteous, and calls righteous what God calls unrighteous, today, as in the past.
     
  10. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Luke 2:21 . .On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he
    was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been
    conceived.

    Both parents had been commanded to give Mary's boy the name Jesus.

    Matt 1:21 . .She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name
    Jesus

    Luke 1:31 . .You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to
    give him the name Jesus.

    People in a small town like Nazareth usually know everybody, and know all
    about everybody. So it was probably common knowledge that Mary's baby
    wasn't Joseph's, viz: they knew Joseph was engaged to a girl whose baby
    was, from all appearances, illegitimate; and there was no plausible way for
    Joseph and Mary to prove otherwise. In point of fact, I'd not be surprised
    that the rumor mill was confident the baby was Joseph's, especially seeing
    as how he stood with its mother for the naming.

    The Bible doesn't say whether the couple's parents were humiliated by this
    business, but it's likely they were.
    _
     
  11. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    The Bible does not say anyone thought the baby was not Joseph's !!!
    In fact, JUST THE OPPOSITE ,
    the evidence points to people believing it is/was Joseph's !!! That Joseph is/was the father !
     
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  12. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    The identity of Jesus' biological father was suspicious; but when Joseph
    stood with Mary to name her baby (Matt 1:21) from then on the lad became
    accepted as Joseph's boy.

    Matt 13:55 . . Is not this the carpenter's son?

    Luke 2:48 . . His mother said to Him, "Son, why have you treated us this
    way? Behold, your father and I have been anxiously looking for you."

    Jesus was ordained of God to inherit David's throne (Luke 1:32). Now the
    thing is; David's throne has never been passed down to one of his sons via a
    mother; it's always been passed down via the fathers in his line.

    For another thing, the throne has to come down via David's son Solomon.
    (1Kings 1:13, and 1Chron 22:9-10). Joseph is related to Solomon (Matt 1:6
    and Matt 1:16).

    Long story short: it was necessary for Joseph to adopt Mary's boy in order
    for the lad to get into Solomon's genealogy and thus qualify as a rightful heir
    to the throne promised him during the angel's visit with his mother. (Luke 1:31-33).
    _
     
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  13. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    When and to whom ?
     
  14. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    In this case, the OP seemed to be making the case (or at least implying) that Joseph was more righteous than Mary...
    "The word "all" suggests to me that Joseph wasn't compliant with just some of the Lord's wishes, nor even most, rather, the whole ball of wax. That's an amazing track record."
    I believe the righteousness referred to was one on account of faith (imputed), not a righteousness one had over the other.
     
  15. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    I think the op is presenting lessons from his tradition, his school, or his church, unproven and untested true (i.e. not tested to be proven truth with a result of proving true) .
    Some looks like it is truth, some looks like it is not. Thus all remains subject to testing, proving, verifying by Scripture, as Scripture Says and as Directed by the Creator, before accepting.
     
  16. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I was not saying you were completely wrong nor are you wrong in all that you have said here. In the OT the immediate reward was a continuing natural life versus the punishment of man inflicted death on the body of flesh of the offender. In the NT the death to be inflicted that matters is the death of the old man within ourselves that ruled us completely until, or if, we met the Master and the new man was born. We are to be "in" the Spirit of God, led by the Spirit then the reward is not a continuation of natural life, but the receipt of a never ending Life.

    "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26
     
  17. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Righteousness-- as it's presented in the story of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph --is
    exemplified by the righteousness attributed to the Jewish parents of the
    Lord's cousin; John the Baptist.

    Luke 1:5-6 . .There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain
    priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the
    daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both
    righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of
    the Lord blameless.

    The apostle Paul was another Jew who walked in all the commandments and
    ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    Phil 3:5-6 . . Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe
    of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews . . . touching the righteousness
    which is in the law, blameless.

    It sometimes surprises people that Jesus Christ wasn't a Christian; he was a
    Jew-- born under the law, circumcised the eighth day --as such he was
    yet another Jew whose righteousness was measured by the righteousness
    which is in the law.

    I really don't think it's a good idea to inject Christianity's by-faith
    righteousness into the story of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph seeing as how those
    folks were all Jews whose righteousness is measured by the covenant that
    Moses' people agreed upon with God in the Old Testament-- a.k.a. the law.

    Now, it's true that the righteousness which is in the law isn't righteous
    enough to attain heaven. However, the righteousness which is in the Jews'
    covenant is still to this day righteous.

    Rom 3:31 . . Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! On
    the contrary, we establish the law.

    Rom 7:12 . . The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous,
    and good.
    _
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
  18. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    If you think that Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, (and Moses and Abraham, etc etc etc) ,
    were not righteous by faith, (as without faith it is impossible to please Yahweh)

    who taught you that ?
     
  19. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    I didn't set this thread up intending for it to be a venue for testimonies,
    they're off-topic; but what the hay; maybe it's time for an intermission.

    I was christened an infant into the Roman Catholic Church in 1944, and
    eventually attended catechism to complete First Holy Communion and
    Confirmation.

    My siblings are Catholic, my mother was Catholic, my eldest brother entered
    the priesthood and made it to the rank of Friar before passing away in May
    2018 of cancer. (Though he was a Friar, my brother was no saint. He had a
    problem with alcohol till AA helped straighten him out). My wife is a former
    Catholic, her dad was Catholic, his wife was Catholic, my aunt and uncle
    were Catholics, and my wife's cousins are Catholic; one of them is qualified
    to teach Catechism.

    I was loyal to Rome up until I was 24, then one day I was approached by a
    Conservative Baptist minister who asked me if I was prepared for Christ's
    return.

    Well; I must've been either asleep or absent the day that the nuns talked
    about Jesus coming back because that man's question was the very first
    time in my whole life that I can remember somebody telling me.

    My initial reaction was alarm because I instinctively knew that were I called
    on the carpet for a face-to-face with Jesus, it would not go well for me
    because I had a lot to answer for. Well; I don't like being made to feel afraid
    so I became indignant and demanded to know why Jesus would come back.
    That's when I found out for the very first time that it was in the plan for
    Christ to take over the world. (I had somehow missed that in catechism
    too.)

    Then the minister asked me if I was going to heaven. Well; of course I had
    no clue because Catholics honestly don't know what to expect when they
    pass away. I was crossing my fingers while in the back of my mind dreading
    the worst.

    Then the man said; "Don't you know that Jesus died for your sins?"

    Well; I had been taught in catechism that Jesus died for the sins of the
    world; that much I knew; but honestly believed all along that he had been a
    victim of unfortunate circumstances. It was a shock to discover that Jesus'
    trip to the cross was deliberate, and that his Father was thinking of me when
    His son passed away, viz: my sins were among the sins of the world that
    Jesus took to the cross with him.

    At that very instant-- scarcely a nanosecond --something took over in my
    mind as I fully realized, to my great relief, that heaven was no longer out of
    reach, rather, well within my grasp!

    That was an amazing experience. In just the two or three minutes of
    conversation with that Baptist minister, I obtained an understanding of
    Jesus' crucifixion that many tedious years of catechism classes had somehow
    failed to get across. Consequently, my confidence in the Roman Catholic
    Church was shattered like a bar of peanut brittle candy dropped on the
    sidewalk from the tippy top of the Chrysler building.

    Long story short; I eventually went with that man to his church and, side by
    side with him and a couple of elders, knelt at the rail down front and prayed
    a really simple, naive prayer that went something like this;

    "God, I know I'm a sinner. I would like to take advantage of your son's
    death"

    My prayer wasn't much to brag about; but it was the smartest sixteen words
    I'd ever spoken up to that time.

    Matt 10:32 . .Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also
    acknowledge him before my Father in heaven.
    _
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  20. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    HALLELUYAH! And Let All the ANGELS in HEAVEN and all the Ekklesia on eart REJOICE! HALLELUYAH !

    God always knows how and when to reach anyone .....
     
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