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Matthew 13's parables.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Retrobyter, Apr 4, 2013.

  1. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    I've heard these parables of our Master being used time and time again as support for this point of view or that point of view, that I feel it's high time we understand the true meaning of these parables.

    First and foremost, these are parables about the King and His Kingdom, and that does NOT mean about the "church!" Yeshua` is talking about Himself as the future King of Isra'el and the Kingdom of God or God's Kingdom or the Kingdom from the sky (from "heaven") that He brings back with Him when He WILL return!

    Of the various parables recorded in Matthew 13, only the first one may be thought about as referring to this time period in which we currently live and call the "present." ALL of the others are about His FUTURE Kingdom.

    To understand this, let's springboard into them from another of Yeshua`s parables found in Luke 19:

    Luke 19:11-28
    11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
    12 He said therefore,
    A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
    15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
    16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
    17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
    18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
    19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
    20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
    21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
    22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
    23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
    24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
    25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
    26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
    27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
    KJV


    Notice the highlighted portions above, the parable surrounding the parable, so to speak. I believe (and I also think many of you do, too) that Yeshua` (Jesus) IS that "certain nobleman," as the KJV put it. That it was...
    1. YESHUA` who "went into a far country (to His Father) to receive for Himself a kingdom," and that it was...
    2. YESHUA` who will "return," and that it was...
    3. YESHUA` who will be the one who "when He was returned," will be He "having received the kingdom." Finally, it was...
    4. YESHUA` who "called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, 'Occupy till I come.'"

    Then, He introduced the parable within the parable, namely the Parable about the Ten Pounds, or in other locations, the Parable of the Talents.

    Therefore, WE are the servants to whom He entrusted those "pounds" or "talents" and He expects us to trade with them and increase His wealth during the NOW - the PRESENT - before He will return and take account of how well we did. Of course, not worrying at this point about what the "pounds" or "talents" are, my main concern is the TIMING of the events! From this parable, we can glean the information that the Kingdom is something Yeshua` LEFT the earth to acquire and that He will bring it WITH HIM when He LITERALLY and BODILY returns!

    If He returned "spiritually" at Pentecost or some other such time, like the stoning of Stephen, then the Parable about the Ten Pounds or the Parable of the Talents IS OVER, and Yeshua` is already reigning!

    I don't think so. If Yeshua` is already reigning, then - as I've said before - He is a very impotent King! If He is just to reign "in the hearts of men," then His "reign" is getting weaker, not stronger! No, this is NOT the correct way to expect His Kingdom. Look at the Messianic Psalm, Psalm 2. I've included quotation marks for you in descending order as such, namely ", ', <<, >>, ', ". I also added red letters for Yeshua`s words and purple letters for the LORD'S words (two different shades):

    Psalm 2:1-12
    1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
    2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his Anointed, saying,
    3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
    4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
    5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
    6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
    7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
    9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'
    10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
    11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
    KJV

    This is not just some "spiritual" message that is to be "interpreted" in some allegorical way; I believe this is a REAL, LITERAL occurrence that WILL happen at some point (or perhaps, at many points) within the reign of the Messiah when He returns!

    Why DO the goyim, the Gentiles, the heathen rage (Hebrew: raagshuw = they-are-in-an-uproar; they-are-being-disorderly) and the communities imagine (Hebrew: yehguw = they-murmur; they-grumble; they-complain-under-their-breath) a vain thing (Hebrew: riyq = emptiness; a-worthless-thing)?

    These kings of the earth "set themselves" (yityaatsvuw = they-station-themselves) and the leaders take counsel together - they have a United Nations meeting - against the LORD (YHWH), the INFINITE GOD, and against His Anointed One, the Messiah, His Representative! They will say,

    "Let's tear off their restraints, and throw their ropes away from us!" They are talking about BOTH the LORD (God Himself) AND His Messiah (Yeshua` the King) in the word "their!"

    Then, in the middle of their meeting, they hear, "Heh. Heh, heh. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! HA! HA! HAW! HAW! HAW! 'Let's tear off their restraints.' That's RICH! 'Let's throw their ropes away from us.' Boo-hoo! HAW! HAW! HAW!" When He's through laughing, He speaks to them in a clear, unmistakeable voice, heavy in his wrath (Hebrew: b'apow = in-his-nostrils/passion) and in his burning anger (Hebrew: uwbacharownow = in-his-blaze) He shall vex them (Hebrew: yvahaleemow = he-shall-make-them-tremble; he-shall-alarm-them)!

    "Yet have I set MY King upon MY holy mountain Tsiown! Here, let me remind you about the decree:

    "'The LORD (YHWH, God the Father) has said to me (Yeshua`, the Son of God), "You are My SON! I have fathered you this very day! If you ask me for it, I will give you all the goyim - the nations - for your inheritance and the farthest extremities of the earth for your possession! You will break them to pieces with a switch of iron! You will shatter them like so many shards of pottery!"'

    "So therefore,... be wise now, O kings! Learn your lesson, O judges of the earth! Work for YHWH in fear! Spin around cringing in shuddering! Kiss the Heir (in welcome) or else He may become enraged and you will be destroyed on the road when His anger flares up even a little! Happy are all those who flee to HIM for their protection!"

    Now, all that being said, let's get into the parables of Matthew 13 as how they really apply to the FUTURE Kingdom:
     
  2. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    You admit Jesus has received a kingdom, so that means he is reigning. It is self-contradictory to state that someone has been made king, yet is not reigning.

    Also you are assuming that Christ is only in heaven. Jesus is in heaven, but his body is on earth through whom he reigns. He is not impotent, as you imply, as he is reigning over the affairs of man as he sees fit as his temple is built. His main concern is that the temple be completed and his servants reign over sin until the consummation. If you think his reign is getting weaker, then that says to me that you are focusing on the visible church and not him, and you really don't understand his return.
     
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom to all.

    As I've said before, the character of the Kingdom of God during the first 1000 years of haMelekh Yeshua`s reign has a MUCH different flavor than so many teach. His Kingdom will be one of FORCE and TYRANNY, albeit He WILL be a "benevolent tyrant."

    1 Corinthians 15:25
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    KJV


    So, let's look at the first parable:

    Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23
    1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
    2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
    3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
    4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
    5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
    6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
    7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
    8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
    9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    ...
    18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
    19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
    20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
    21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
    22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
    23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
    KJV

    Each one of the parables is given by Yeshua` to His disciples, including us, presenting to us elements of the parables in the nouns of the parable that are equivalent to other things, and the verbs give the relationships of these nouns such that the story is indicative of some truth about the Kingdom.

    The elements are often given to us directly by the Master. Here, ...

    The sower = the one heralding the Kingdom, whether the Master Himself, His herald John the Baptist, or one of His students.
    The seed = the word of the Kingdom or the message about the Kingdom.
    The fowl or the birds = the wicked one, whom we call "haSatan" or "Satan"
    The wayside or the hard-pan walk way = those who heard the message but didn't understand it
    The stony places or places that had some dirt upon all the rocks but had no depth of earth for the roots = those who heard the message and immediately with joy received it, but had no depth in themselves, and when tribulation or persecution arises, they are offended or made to sin.
    Therefore, the sun = the tribulation or persecution.
    The place with thorns = those who hear the message but have many cares of this life and the deceitfulness of riches.
    Therefore, the thorns = cares of this life and the deceitfulness of riches.
    The good ground = he who hears the message, receives it, and becomes fruitful, whether 100x, 60x, or 30x.

    However, one must understand that this is a message about the KINGDOM, not about the "church!" It is a message about the FUTURE, not about the present!


    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

    I do NOT accept that Yeshua` already has His Kingdom. He is NOT currently reigning, and it is NOT contradictory to say so! That is YOUR philosophy of theology, not mine. Pay attention to my words: He left TO RECEIVE a Kingdom and will return! It is wrong to say that He is already reigning! THAT'S the great deception for which most of those who call themselves "Christians" have fallen!

    We can be His "subjects" ahead of time, but technically, His Kingdom hasn't started, yet. Therefore, we are not currently "subjects" in reality although we can OWN HIM AS OUR KING AHEAD OF TIME! We will BECOME His subjects in reality when His Kingdom begins.

    Now, hear me out before trying to derail this thread, please.
     
  4. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Uh no. If your opening premise is fallacious, the rest of your argument will be fraudulent as well.

    Just because you say something is so doesn't make it so. The bible does indeed state the Jesus has received a kingdom, and by logical extension is currently ruling and reigning:

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

    This is what happened when he ascended the final time to the father (Acts 1:11) to sit at his right hand of power and authority. Steven saw it:

    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55-56

    The right hand of GOD is the authority and power of the kingdom.
     
  5. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

    Uh, yes! Neither of these passages that you quote say ANYTHING about Yeshua` having already received His Kingdom! In Dani'el 7:13-14, the message is that "there was given him dominion, and glory (fame), and a kingdom," but I believe that won't happen until His Father sends Him back here to earth! You highlighted the second part of that which you quoted, but you should have paid more attention to the FIRST PART!"Behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days (His Father), and they brought him near before him!" That's the SECOND ADVENT, His SECOND COMING! It is the FULFILLMENT of this:

    Acts 1:9-11
    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky).
    KJV


    Thus, just as He disappeared into a cloud in the sky, He will return with the clouds of the sky and descend back to the earth!

    Look at all the Scriptures that associate His second coming with clouds and the sky!

    Matthew 24:29-31
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    KJV


    Matthew 26:64
    64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    KJV

    Mark 13:24-27
    24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
    KJV



    Mark 14:61-62
    61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
    62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    KJV

    Luke 21:25-28
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    KJV



    Revelation 1:7

    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    KJV



    Revelation 14:14-16
    14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    KJV


    Revelation 19:11-16
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    KJV


    THESE are the fulfillment of Dani'el 7, but THEY HAVE NOT HAPPENED, YET! They WILL happen when HE RETURNS! I am NOT starting from a "fallacious opening premise" nor am I advocating a "fraudulent argument!" If you can't accept these Scriptures, then perhaps it is YOUR theology that is "fraudulent!"
     
  6. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    When Jesus was taken up by the clouds in Acts 9:9, he was taken to the father in clouds fulfilling the Daniel prophecy. His second coming will be the fulfillment of Acts 9:11. Leave in clouds, go to the father. Leave in clouds, return to the earth. Pretty simple.
     
  7. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

    Ridiculous. What does Acts 9:9 or 9:11 have to do with it?! You are being used of haSatan to derail this thread, and I am praying that the LORD will not allow it. Suffice it to say that I am putting you on "ignore" until I am finished. I won't be long. And, in the meantime, if you persist in being a nuisance, then we KNOW that you are a "troll," and SHOULD be ejected. I would simply ask that you hold your peace until I've talked about the rest of Matthew 13's parables. Thanks.
     
  8. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    O sorry. I used the wrong verses. Let me rephrase:

    When Jesus was taken up by the clouds in Acts 1:9, he was taken to the father in clouds fulfilling the Daniel prophecy. His second coming will be the fulfillment of Acts 1:11. Leave in clouds, go to the father. Leave in clouds, return to the earth. Pretty simple.
     
  9. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    The second parable of Matthew 13 is commonly called the parable of the wheat and tares (or weeds):

    Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43
    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
    ...
    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    KJV

    This is another example in which Yeshua` well defines the elements of the parable:
    1. He who sowed the good seed = the Son of man (Yeshua` Himself);
    2. The field = the world (that's the world-SYSTEM of politics, not the earth);
    3. The good seed = the children of the Kingdom;
    4. The tares (weed look-alikes) = the children of the wicked one;
    5. The enemy who sowed the tares = the devil;
    6. The harvest = the end of the age (Greek: aioonos), and...
    7. The reapers = the angels (messengers).

    First, we simply make the substitutions and read it with the elements in place:

    The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man who sowed the children of the Kingdom in his world:
    25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked one among the children of the Kingdom, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also.
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow children of the Kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one?
    28 He said unto them, The devil hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the Kingdom with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the end of the age: and in the time of the end of the age I will say to the messenger, Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the Kingdom into my barn.


    Then, Yeshua` gives an additional explanation:

    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos = "age").
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels (Greek: aggeloi = "messengers"), and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend (Greek: panta ta skandala = "all the offenders/criminals"), and them which do iniquity (Greek: tous poiountas tees anomias = "the workers of the violations of Torah");
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear
    .

    In harmony with 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, this is talking about the future Millennium, the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom:

    1 Corinthians 15:20-28
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    KJV


    Thus, Yeshua` arrives WITH those who are His at His coming, He reigns putting His enemies under His feet until they ALL have been subjugated to Him, and then He destroys death, and then submits to His Father and passes the baton of the Kingdom on to His Father. The world empire that Yeshua` will build will become the Kingdom of the Father or His Father's Kingdom. This matches what we have read in Psalm 2:1-12 and it also matches Revelation 20:1-15 and 21:1-2, and it agrees with John 5:21-29:

    John 5:21-29
    21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (Just like they didn't honor Him in Psalm 2:1-3!)
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    KJV

    So, the point is that Yeshua` is talking about that time period between the beginning of His reign after He has returned and "sowed children of the Kingdom into His world" and the end of His reign over the world empire when He turns it over to the Father. Notice the highlighted contextual clues in Matthew 13:

    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


    Verses 41 and 42 parallel Revelation 20:7-15, the Great White Throne Judgment and the Second Death in the Lake of Fire and Sulfur at the end of the Millennium, and verse 43 parallels Revelation 21:1-2, the New Earth with its New Jerusalem capital!

    Therefore, this parable is NOT talking about this current time in which we live at all; it is talking about the future Kingdom of the Messiah when He returns!

    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

    No problem. I figured as much, but separating Acts 1:9 from 1:11 is not a good idea. It's actually the fulfillment of Acts 1:11 that will likewise fulfill Dani'el 7:13-14, 21-22, and 27. It's not a one-day event!

    Daniel 7:13-14, 21-22, 27
    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
    ...
    21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
    ...

    27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
    KJV


    Verses 13-14 harmonize with Revelation 11:15-19 at the seventh trumpet, when Yeshua` is given the Kingdom.

    Verses 21-22 and 28 harmonize with Revelation 19:11-20:6, when Yeshua` returns and rescues His nation Isra'el and conquers His first of many foes at Har-Megiddown ("Armageddon"). These also harmonize with Zechariah chapters 12-14 and many other passages in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Obadiah, etc.

    May the LORD bless you in your studies.
     
  10. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    So exactly where did Jesus go when he was taken from the earth in clouds as described in Acts 1:9?

    Is he wandering around heaven looking for something to do? Hanging out in a celestial pool hall with Gabriel? No. We are explicitly told that the son of man ascended in clouds to the father:

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

    And we are also clearly told that he received a kingdom at that time from the father:

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14

    There is no need for your torturous interpretations when things are explained so simply and clearly.

    You really have no credible evidence that Jesus will not receive the kingdom until he returns to earth.
     
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.


    Yeshua` went where He said He was going:

    John 14:2
    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    KJV

    And, we learn in Revelation that His Father's "house" is the New Jerusalem:

    Revelation 21:2-3
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    KJV


    And, this word translated "tabernacle" is the Greek word "skeenee" (pronounced "SKAY-nay"), means "tent," and is the same word used of Abraham's "house," a Bedouin tent, in Hebrews 11:9:

    Hebrews 11:8-10
    8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
    9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
    10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    KJV


    So, Yeshua` went to the New Jerusalem still under construction! And, THAT'S what He's been doing all this time! Remember: He is both a King AND a Carpenter! "All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made!"

    Let me put this simply for one who wants to see simple things:

    When interpreting prophetic passages, don't forget the fourth dimension, the dimension of TIME. Often, in prophetic passages, the time dimension is not clearly seen:

    You've probably heard this before, whether in this way or not. I'm simply reminding you of what you've probably already heard.

    Douglas Connelly in his book Bible Prophecy For Blockheads (c. 2002, printed by Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI) wrote on p. 32,...



    It's this mountain range concept of time that I'm talking about.

    In Yeshua`s parable found in Luke 19:11-28 quoted above in the first post, in verse 15 He said, "And it came to pass, that when He was returned, having received the kingdom...." So, He does receive the Kingdom BEFORE He returns from His Father, I'll give you that. He may have ALREADY "received the kingdom" as far as the authority and the power and the right to reign, and this may have even been given to Him when He first got back to His Father!

    HOWEVER, the Kingdom is not fully realized, is not fully activated, is not "up and running" until He returns, because the PURPOSE of His Kingdom is "that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him," and they DON'T NOW! Was that clear enough? That's what I'm talking about, and that's why the Kingdom is not NOW but is a FUTURE Kingdom!
     
  12. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    That is of course true. It is a progression. His subjects work on building the temple until the king reining in heaven returns to reign on the earth.
     
  13. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, again, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

    Good! I feel that we're making some progress in agreement! My point is this: If you think we're in the Kingdom now, you AIN'T SEEN NUTHIN', YET! Shoot, when He starts to reign in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el, PHYSICALLY AND BODILY, His Kingdom will be so CONCRETE, TANGIBLE, AND REAL, that we will ALL wonder what in the world we were arguing about!

    So, it is to THIS Kingdom I believe these parables are referring, not to the petty little ways that people apply these parables today.

    With that said, let's look at the third parable:

    Matthew 13:31-32
    31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
    32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
    KJV

    Here, the elements of the parable are NOT explained; however, they are also not that difficult to understand when you consider that...

    the Kingdom itself = the single grain of mustard seed.

    We are not told anything else except how it may compare with "other seeds of other herbs," and how the full grown herbs compare.

    To me, this parable seems rather reminiscent of Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Dani'el 4 and of the stone that becomes a mountain in Dani'el 2:

    Daniel 4:4-27
    4 I Nebuchadnezzar was at rest in mine house, and flourishing in my palace:
    5 I saw a dream which made me afraid, and the thoughts upon my bed and the visions of my head troubled me.
    6 Therefore made I a decree to bring in all the wise men of Babylon before me, that they might make known unto me the interpretation of the dream.
    7 Then came in the magicians, the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers: and I told the dream before them; but they did not make known unto me the interpretation thereof.
    8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
    9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
    10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
    11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
    12 The leaves thereof were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all: the beasts of the field had shadow under it, and the fowls of the heaven dwelt in the boughs thereof, and all flesh was fed of it.

    13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
    14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
    15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
    16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
    17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
    18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
    19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonied for one hour, and his thoughts troubled him. The king spake, and said, Belteshazzar, let not the dream, or the interpretation thereof, trouble thee. Belteshazzar answered and said, My lord, the dream be to them that hate thee, and the interpretation thereof to thine enemies.
    20 The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
    21 Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
    22 It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

    23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
    24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
    25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
    26 And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule.
    27 Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

    KJV


    Dan 2:31-45
    31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
    32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
    33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
    34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
    36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
    37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
    38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
    39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
    40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
    41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
    42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
    44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
    KJV


    I believe that the point Yeshua` was making in His parable is the Kingdom's size and growth, that the Kingdom will start out small, indeed smaller than almost every other kingdom in the world, one of the smallest, at any rate. However, it will grow until it becomes a TREE providing places to nest for "the birds of the air." So, too, Yeshua`s Kingdom will grow throughout the 1000-year period until it fills the earth and becomes lodging for all!


    Shalom, ChristRoseFromTheDead.

    The only comment I would add is that I do NOT believe that Yeshua` is a "King reigning in heaven." He is not reigning now, not in "heaven," not on earth, and not even "in the hearts of men," as some teach. Prophecy is VERY SPECIFIC about where the Messiah will reign!
     
  14. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    The next parable was the last to be told to all the people outside, the Parable of the Leaven:

    Matt 13:33
    33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
    KJV

    This is a HUGELY misunderstood parable! The elements of the parable are as sparse as were the elements for the parable of the mustard seed.

    The kingdom from the sky = leaven (or yeast or some other leavening agent).

    We are not told who the woman represents nor are we told what the "three measures of meal" might represent. All we can glean from this is that it's a LOT of bread dough, more than a single person can carry! Leaven such as yeast, being a single-celled plant, multiplies as it grows; so, the more time that passes, the more leaven is in the bread dough. As long as it can find warmth, water, and food (the bread dough), it will continue to multiply.

    I believe that this is talking about the INFLUENCE of the Kingdom during the 1000 years. Its influence will also start out negligible but will continue to grow, very similarly to its growth in size.

    This "leaven" is DEFINITELY NOT a "type of sin," as some teach! Not unless one expects the Kingdom from the sky, God's Kingdom, to be a "type of sin!"

    As I've said before in a different thread, don't get too hung up on the types! If you think a particular type is always to be associated with one thing, like sin, then you are too rigid in your usage of types and have become a "typolatrist," one who WORSHIPS the types! "Typology" is the "study of types," but "typolatry" (coined) is the "WORSHIP of types!" Types, like any analogy, can change from usage to usage, depending on the user and that person's context!

    Here, the "leaven" is related to the "Kingdom" and therefore about the Kingdom's INFLUENCE.

    This is reminiscent of the Queen of Sheba's visit to Shlomo haMelekh (King Solomon), curious about and investigating his renowned wisdom. MANY kings will seek the Messiah's wisdom during those years, and His advice will be much more heeded than that of any other advisor they could hope to hear! Kings, presidents, and leaders the world over will be hanging on His every word!

    Have a wonderful, weekly Resurrection Day (aka Sunday)!
     
  15. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    The next parable was told within the house to His disciples and those who were with Him inside the house only:

    Matthew 13:44
    44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
    KJV

    This parable makes the equation...

    the Kingdom of heaven = treasure hid in a field.

    He didn't say who the man was; so, it could be any man - anybody!

    The real picture of this parable is to be found in the background story: A man is digging in the ground. Why? Who knows? Maybe, he's planting crops, but he's not digging in HIS ground. The land belongs to someone else; so, he is probably working for that other person. He stumbled upon a treasure that was hidden in that field. Obviously, from the story, we can understand that the owner of the field had no idea of its presence. The man re-hides the treasure (buries it back in the ground), sells all that he has (which obviously is not comparable to the value of the treasure), and having enough money to bargain for the field, buys the field from the current owner. Once he owns the field and has all the rights to the field and whatever is found on that land, he is safe to go back and dig up HIS OWN treasure because he bought it with the field!

    Here, the Kingdom from the sky is likened to that treasure. When a person discovers its true worth, he will do everything in his power to make sure that he is the "owner" - an inheritor - an heir- of that Kingdom because he knows its true value and wants a "piece of the action!" When Yeshua` begins His Kingdom in reality in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el, at the beginning of what is called the "Millennium," the "1000 years" when haSatan is locked away, it will start out small and relatively uninfluential. When an inhabitant of the earth learns its TRUE worth, he will do everything he can to make sure that he is a part of that Kingdom!

    Shalom, again, everyone.

    The next parable was also told to His disciples within the house:

    Matthew 13:45-46
    45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
    46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
    KJV


    This parable is sometimes mislabeled as the "Parable of the Pearl(s)" or the "Parable of the Goodly Pearl(s)." NONE of those titles are descriptive of this parable. It should really be called the "Parable of the Merchant" or the "Parable of the Merchant Man."

    The focus should be on the MAN, not on the pearls. The one element identified is the same as above:

    The kingdom of heaven = a merchant man.

    The merchant man HAPPENED to be seeking goodly pearls, although such a merchant could be searching for anything of value. Pearls can be quite valuable if they are large, rare, and of the right shape, color and quality. However, we are not told what the pearls may represent. Therefore, they aren't elements of the parable.

    The point Yeshua` is making is that the Kingdom can sell all that it has and still turn a profit, thanks to the wisdom of haMelekh Yisra'el, the King of Isra'el, who is Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym, Ieesous ho Christos Theou, or Jesus the Anointed (the Christ) of God. Furthermore, He is not squeamish to turn such a profit! That is the confidence of the King!
     
  16. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    The next parable was also given within the house: The parable of the seining net.

    Matthew 13:47-50
    47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
    48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
    49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    KJV


    A couple of things here:

    First, the elements of the parable are given:

    Kingdom from the sky = a net that was cast into the sea
    Good kinds (of fish) = the just (or rather, the justified)
    Bad kinds (of fish) = the wicked
    Casting them away = casting them into the furnace of fire

    Second, we are given the additional information that this will occur at the "end of the world," or rather, at the "end of the age" (Greek: tee sunteleia tou aioonos = "the with-end of-the age" or the "the final completion of the age"). That won't happen until AFTER the end of the Millennium. Therefore, this is to be expected AFTER the first 1000 years of His Kingdom.

    Regardless when one thinks the "end of the age" will occur, this parable coincides with the parable of the wheat and tares, and information given with that parable places this parable AFTER Yeshua` has subdued all of His enemies, according to 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.



    So, in my opinion, all of the parables of Matthew 13 (with the exception of the first one) have to do with the Messiah's Kingdom yet to come. These first 1000 years of His Kingdom are at the END of this age, before the Fire, and before the Final Age, the Eternal State, when the New Jerusalem descends to a re-created New Earth and Sky, a THIRD Earth and a THIRD Sky (the THIRD heaven), and this understanding comes from harmonizing 2 Peter 3:3-13, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, and Revelation 20:1-15:5 with these parables.
     
  17. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Shalom Retrobyter. Did you happen to notice the personal and individual nature of the Bema Judgments witnessed in your own quoting of Luke 19 with your opening statement? It is personal and individual just as is all of the Gospel of Yeshua:

    Luke 19:15-20 KJV
    15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, (Acts 2 Shavout) then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
    16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
    17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been
    faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
    18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
    19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
    20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:


    Then came the first . . .
    And the second came . . .
    And another came . . . . . . .

    Each in his or her own appointed times; beware the herd mentality or you will not see it . . . :)
     
  18. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, daq.

    Of course, I noticed the individual nature of the beema-judgment incidents within Luke 19; however, most Christians today don't have to be instructed on that individuality. Most are taught individualism-in-"Salvation" all the time! What they REALLY need to learn is the nationality aspect of it, and I am not talking about "herd mentality" at all. By the way, just what do you think the "Gospel of Yeshua`" is?

    Let me give you a couple of hints:

    First, it was already well-known by most of the children of Isra'el at the beginning of Yeshua`s "ministry":

    Mark 1:14-15
    14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
    KJV

    Yeshua` didn't have to explain it or convince anyone; they already KNEW what it was. He merely had to tell them it's time "IS HERE" (at the time Yeshua` offered it)! Rather than seeing it as a fable or myth, they were to "repent" - reverse their thinking about it - and BELIEVE it!

    Second, it was NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection" of Himself. Who at that time accepted that Yeshua` was indeed God's Messiah? Who among the children of Isra'el believed that the Messiah of God had to die after His coming? Who would even believe that the Messiah would come back to life again if He was to die? There are a LOT of practical "layers to this onion," a LOT of hurdles to overcome for the Gospel to be anything CLOSE to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4!

    So, I ask you, what IS the "Gospel of Yeshua`?" Did it differ from that of Yochanan (John) the Immerser? Did it differ from that of Rav Sha'uwl (Paul)?
     
  19. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Not to say that "the herd mentality" is a bad thing but in fact is nearly inescapable because, after all, we are likened to the sheep of a fold. However, it is not all one hundred sheep that go astray at the same time according to the parable but rather the one which the Shepherd then goes and gets, ("saves") while the other ninety nine remain secure in the sheepfold.

    As for the remainder of your comments Rav Sha'ul very strictly and meticulously adheres to the Gospel of Yeshua though most neither realize nor recognize how the doctrines fit hand in glove. Yochanan the Immerser did not come to proclaim a "Gospel" of sorts but rather to bear witness of The Light. If you truly desire to know the truth about John Elias then you will need to answer the question presented by the clear emphatic statement concerning him which the Master did speak in Mark 9:13. Yeshua clearly states IT IS WRITTEN of Elijah that they would do unto him whatsoever the wished and clearly what they did was cast him into prison and then, on the whims of a damsel and her wicked mother, they beheaded him:

    Mark 9:13 ASV
    13. But I say unto you, that Elijah is come, and they have also done unto him whatsoever they would, even as it is written of him.

    Mark 6:21-27 KJV
    21. And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
    22. And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
    23. And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
    24. And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
    25. And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
    26. And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.
    27. And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,

    Mark 9:13 KJV
    13. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.


    Here are some Tanak clues:

    1 Samuel 17:50-51 KJV
    50. So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
    51. Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off [HSN#3772 karath] his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.

    1 Samuel 31:8-9 KJV
    8. And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa.
    9. And they cut off [HSN#3772 karath] his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.


    Original Strong's Ref. #3772
    Romanized karath
    Pronounced kaw-rath'
    a primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces):
    KJV--be chewed, be con-[feder-]ate, covenant, cut (down, off), destroy, fail, feller, be freed, hew (down), make a league ([covenant]), X lose, perish, X utterly, X want.

    Where is it WRITTEN of Elijah that they would KARATH him off?
    :)

    And this is the Gospel of Yeshua, Yochanan, and Paulos:

    Luke 1:67-75 KJV
    67. And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    68. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69. And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70. As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71. That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72. To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73. The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75. In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.


    It seems not many understand this but the following is the "Royal Law" and "Law of Liberty" of which James speaks:

    Matthew 6:12-15 KJV
    12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


    It really is that simple but took the rightful Heir to present it from the Father and CONFIRM the Covenant in his own blood.

    James 2:8-13 KJV
    8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
    9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


    It is clearly about mercy and showing mercy, and the grace that we receive is the Testimony and the Blood of Atonement of Messiah Yeshua. If therefore one will forgive others their trespasses then the heavenly Father will forgive him also, but if not then neither will the Father forgive such a one; the statement is plain as day. There is therefore NO EXCUSE for what the modern shepherds have done in "abolishing the Law" because whenever one stumbles we have the mercy and the grace to pick back up and continue in Messiah. Paulos reveals the same:

    2 Corinthians 3:14-17 KJV
    14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
    15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    16. Nevertheless when it
    (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
    17. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


    Not saying this is you but the Gospel is not about "annulling" or "doing away" with Torah or the Old Testament but rather understanding it according to the doctrines of the Master and having the vail taken away. The vail is upon the heart, mind, and eyes unless and until one truly repents. There is no excuse for abrogating Torah in light of the fact that we have the forgiveness, mercy, and grace of the heavenly Father through his Son. :)
     
  20. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'ChristRoseFromTheDead'
    I was greatly impressed by your comment saying, "Jesus is in heaven, but his body is on earth through whom he reigns".
    Thank you!
     
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