Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ) is NOT Almighty YHWH

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gadar perets

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There is much confusion concerning who Messiah Yeshua is. Some say he is the Son of God, others say he was God himself. Some say he is our Heavenly Father, others say he was our Heavenly Father’s Son. Some say he is Almighty YHWH, others say he is Almighty YHWH’s Son. The purpose of this thread is to teach the latter; that Messiah Yeshua is the Son of Almighty YHWH, not YHWH himself.

I could bombard you with all my Scriptures at once, but that would not accomplish anything except to make this a burdensome thread. The same holds true if you reject this teaching and bombard it with your proof texts. In the interest of being thorough and fruitful, please stick to one verse/passage at a time. My first passage is from Psalm 2.

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against His anointed, saying,

Verse 2 makes a clear distinction between YHWH and “His anointed” (Messiah Yeshua).

Psa 2:6 Yet have I (YHWH) set my king (Yeshua) upon my holy hill of Zion.​

Verse 6 also makes a clear distinction between YHWH and His king, Messiah Yeshua.

Psa 2:7 I (Yeshua) will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me (Yeshua), Thou art my Son (YHWH’s Son); this day have I (YHWH) begotten thee.​

Verse 7 was quoted in Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 and Hebrews 5:5 identifying the Son that was begotten as Yeshua.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me (YHWH), and I (YHWH) shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.​

It is Almighty YHWH that gives Yeshua the heathen for his inheritance and the earth for his possession.

This Psalm shows beyond any shadow of a doubt that Yeshua is not YHWH. They are two separate and distinct beings.
 
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Truth

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There is much confusion concerning who Messiah Yeshua is. Some say he is the Son of God, others say he was God himself. Some say he is our Heavenly Father, others say he was our Heavenly Father’s Son. Some say he is Almighty YHWH, others say he is Almighty YHWH’s Son. The purpose of this thread is to teach the latter; that Messiah Yeshua is the Son of Almighty YHWH, not YHWH himself.

I could bombard you with all my Scriptures at once, but that would not accomplish anything except to make this a burdensome thread. The same holds true if you reject this teaching and bombard it with your proof texts. In the interest of being thorough and fruitful, please stick to one verse/passage at a time. My first passage is from Psalm 2.

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against His anointed, saying,

Verse 2 makes a clear distinction between YHWH and “His anointed” (Messiah Yeshua).

Psa 2:6 Yet have I (YHWH) set my king (Yeshua) upon my holy hill of Zion.​

Verse 6 also makes a clear distinction between YHWH and His king, Messiah Yeshua.

Psa 2:7 I (Yeshua) will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me (Yeshua), Thou art my Son (YHWH’s Son); this day have I (YHWH) begotten thee.​

Verse 7 was quoted in Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 and Hebrews 5:5 identifying the Son that was begotten as Yeshua.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me (YHWH), and I (YHWH) shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.​

It is Almighty YHWH that gives Yeshua the heathen for his inheritance and the earth for his possession.

This Psalm shows beyond any shadow of a doubt that Yeshua is not YHWH. They are two separate and distinct beings.

Yes they are distinctly separate, But and there will always be a BUT God transmit's His authority to Yeshua, For YHWH say to Adoni sit at My right Hand until I make your enemies your Footstool, I don't have Opinion's as others do on this forum, so the Adoni is a replacement for YHWH ,KJV. I am sure there is a balance here. Psalms 110 verse 1?
 

Nomad

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The purpose of this thread is to teach the latter; that Messiah Yeshua is the Son of Almighty YHWH, not YHWH himself.

The Biblical doctrine of the Trinity teaches that God exists as three persons or hypostases, but is one being or essential nature. As such we would expect Scripture to make distinctions between the persons. That's all your proof texts demonstrate.

The Psalmist speaks of YHWH in Psalm 102:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.


The writer to the Hebrews applies the Psalmist words to the Son:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."


There's also John 1:1

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It's pretty clear. Jesus is YHWH.
 

gadar perets

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Yes they are distinctly separate, But and there will always be a BUT God transmit's His authority to Yeshua, For YHWH say to Adoni sit at My right Hand until I make your enemies your Footstool, I don't have Opinion's as others do on this forum, so the Adoni is a replacement for YHWH ,KJV. I am sure there is a balance here. Psalms 110 verse 1?
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. YHWH said unto my Lord (Heb. "adoni"), Sit thou at my right hand, until I (YHWH) make thine (Yeshua's) enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 YHWH shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou (Yeshua) in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 YHWH hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou (Yeshua) art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 YHWH at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Once again we see a clear distinction between YHWH and David's Lord, Yeshua. It is Yeshua's Father YHWH that made Yeshua a priest forever via this oath. Yeshua has been given all authority by his Father YHWH. He is not a replacement for YHWH. He is YHWH's shaliach or representative to mankind.
 
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gadar perets

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The Biblical doctrine of the Trinity teaches that God exists as three persons or hypostases, but is one being or essential nature. As such we would expect Scripture to make distinctions between the persons. That's all your proof texts demonstrate.
The trinity doctrines teaches that the Father is NOT the Son and the Son is NOT the Father. Therefore, since the Scriptures teach the Father of Yeshua is YHWH, then Yeshua is NOT YHWH.

The Psalmist speaks of YHWH in Psalm 102:

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.

Correct, the Psalmist speaks of YHWH, not Yeshua.

The writer to the Hebrews applies the Psalmist words to the Son:

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."

You have erroneously applied Hebrews 1:8-9 as part of Psalm 102. Hebrews 1:10-12 has switched subjects to YHWH.
Psalm 102 are the words of an afflicted man as he cries out to YHWH. They are not the words of YHWH as He speaks to His Son.

Notice each of the other Old Testament quotes in Hebrew 1;

Psalm 2:7; (Hebrews 1:5) - "...Thou art my Son; this day I (YHWH) have begotten thee."

2 Samuel 7:14; (Hebrews 1:5) - "I (YHWH) will be to him a Father..."

Deuteronomy 32:43 (LXX); (Hebrews 1:6) - "And let all the angels of God (of YHWH) worship him."

Psalm 45:6,7; (Hebrews 1:8) - "Thy throne O elohim...therefore elohim, thy Elohim (YHWH) has anointed thee."

Psalm 110:1; (Hebrews 1:13) - "Sit on my right hand, until I (YHWH) make thine enemies thy footstool."​

In each of these quotes it can be seen that either YHWH is talking to His Son or about His Son. Yet, in Psalm 102:25-27 it is the Psalmist talking to YHWH. Therefore, to include Hebrews 1:10-12 among those things that YHWH said to or about His Son is incorrect.

The writer of Hebrews had written verses 1-9 to show how YHWH exalted His Son, even above the angels. It appears as though the writer was then moved to exalt YHWH as well by including verses 10-12 as a parenthesis. He then resumes by showing Yeshua's exaltation in verse 13 which is a continuation of verse 9.

There's also John 1:1

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It's pretty clear. Jesus is YHWH.
This verse does not say "the word was YHWH". In fact, John 1:1-5 refer to the "logos" which is a thing (YHWH's spoken words, thoughts, plan, etc.). You are reading Yeshua into this text as did the KJV translators. Versions prior to the KJV such as Tyndale's Bible, Matthew's Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible, The Bishop's Bible, etc., did no such thing. They refer to the "logos" as "it", not "him".
 

mjrhealth

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@gadar perets well at least we agree on something. Jesus is the word of God come in the flesh, it is another part of God as is His Spirit, but all one and in agreement..It even says

Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
 

ScottA

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There is much confusion concerning who Messiah Yeshua is. Some say he is the Son of God, others say he was God himself. Some say he is our Heavenly Father, others say he was our Heavenly Father’s Son. Some say he is Almighty YHWH, others say he is Almighty YHWH’s Son. The purpose of this thread is to teach the latter; that Messiah Yeshua is the Son of Almighty YHWH, not YHWH himself.

I could bombard you with all my Scriptures at once, but that would not accomplish anything except to make this a burdensome thread. The same holds true if you reject this teaching and bombard it with your proof texts. In the interest of being thorough and fruitful, please stick to one verse/passage at a time. My first passage is from Psalm 2.

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against His anointed, saying,

Verse 2 makes a clear distinction between YHWH and “His anointed” (Messiah Yeshua).

Psa 2:6 Yet have I (YHWH) set my king (Yeshua) upon my holy hill of Zion.​

Verse 6 also makes a clear distinction between YHWH and His king, Messiah Yeshua.

Psa 2:7 I (Yeshua) will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me (Yeshua), Thou art my Son (YHWH’s Son); this day have I (YHWH) begotten thee.​

Verse 7 was quoted in Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5 and Hebrews 5:5 identifying the Son that was begotten as Yeshua.

Psa 2:8 Ask of me (YHWH), and I (YHWH) shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.​

It is Almighty YHWH that gives Yeshua the heathen for his inheritance and the earth for his possession.

This Psalm shows beyond any shadow of a doubt that Yeshua is not YHWH. They are two separate and distinct beings.
"Other Faith" Hahaha...right...

The parable has failed you. God is One.
 

gadar perets

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"Other Faith" Hahaha...right...
I am a believer in Messiah Yeshua, the Savior of the world. He is my personal Savior and Master. One does not need to be a "Christian" to be a believer and true child of YHWH.

The parable has failed you. God is One.
What parable would that be? We agree that God is One. As Yeshua put it when he was praying to his Father,

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yeshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3​
 

gadar perets

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I see no one has addressed Psalm 2 in particular, so I will assume you all agree that it teaches YHWH and Yeshua are two separate beings. Therefore, I will move on to my next passage later this evening. BTW, this is not a thread about whether or not the trinity doctrine is true or that Yeshua is "God". It is about whether or not Yeshua is YHWH.
 

tabletalk

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From 1Timothy 6: 13. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14. that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15. which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16. who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.

I guess you cannot speak to the many Christians who do not know (and never will know) Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.
God is Yhwh.
The above verses seem to teach that Jesus is God.
Whomever you serve, follow, teach about, proclaim, love, bow down to, etc. must be your God. That is Jesus, the '...only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16. who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.'
 

ScottA

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What parable would that be? We agree that God is One. As Yeshua put it when he was praying to his Father,

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Yeshua Messiah, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3​
All things that come into the world, even the world itself, come in parable, even Christ. But the [object] of a parable is not the [subject], so you can say they are not the same...but this does not tell the truth of what is manifest. The truth is that God is One, and the image thereof is an image, not different, but the same. Therefore, He says, "I am."

But you say, He "is not."
 

APAK

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From 1Timothy 6: 13. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14. that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15. which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16. who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.

I guess you cannot speak to the many Christians who do not know (and never will know) Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.
God is Yhwh.
The above verses seem to teach that Jesus is God.
Whomever you serve, follow, teach about, proclaim, love, bow down to, etc. must be your God. That is Jesus, the '...only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16. who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.'
tabletalk:

Is your point in verse 15 concerning the phrase “King of kings and Lord of lords and/ or the structure of the verse? Let’s examine both areas.

The expression ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’ is about Jesus Christ and not God Almighty! God Almighty would be called God of gods.

In the OT this expression is used to mean the BEST King or the BEST Lord. It is fitting to use it for our Lord and Saviour.

(Ezr 7:12) Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace and so forth.

Look at Ezra 7:12; Artaxerxes was called king of kings. He was not Jesus Christ nor was he God Almighty.

Another OT example:

(Eze 26:7) For thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I will bring on Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, with chariots, with horsemen and a company, and many people. (NEV)

King of Babylon was called king of kings. He was never Jesus Christ or God Almighty (YHWH).

Final example:

(Dan 2:37) You, O king, are a king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory. (NEV)

King Nebuchadnezzar is called king of kings. Daniel credits YHWAH for giving him this title as YHWH gave his son, Jesus this same title.

Now verse 15 is in active language is: YHWH, being the blessed and the only God, will reveal Jesus as the King of kings and Lord of lords. Yes, nearly half of the Bible translations do give the impression that Jesus will present YHWH in the future. And we both know that is nonsense.

Look as Acts 3:20

(Act 3:18) But the things which God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ should suffer, He thus fulfilled.
(Act 3:19) Therefore, repent and be converted, so that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
(Act 3:20) and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you, Jesus; (ALL NEV)

God will bring or reveal Jesus in the future…

(1Ti 6:13) I urge you in the sight of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate made the good confession:
(1Ti 6:14) Keep the commandment without stain, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Ti 6:15) In due time He shall reveal him, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
(1Ti 6:16) who only has immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable. Whom no one has seen, nor can see. To whom be honour and power eternal. Amen. (ALL NEV)

Verse 16 is solely about God Almighty (YHWH) NOT Jesus Christ.

In summary: Verse 13-16 says:

In the sight of YHWH who gives to all things, and Jesus’ confession to Pontius Pilate, keep the commandment (in verses 11 and 12) until Jesus appears again. Jesus will be revealed at the right time by YHWH. YHWH is the blessed and only God, who will present Jesus as the BEST King and Lord. We give YHWH honor and power eternal, the only SOURCE of immortality and lives in unapproachable light, who no one has seen.

Bless you,

APAK
 

gadar perets

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From 1Timothy 6: 13. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14. that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15. which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16. who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.

I guess you cannot speak to the many Christians who do not know (and never will know) Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.
God is Yhwh.
The above verses seem to teach that Jesus is God.

The translation you gave above is deceiving and wrong which is why "it seems to teach that Jesus is God". The Greek does not say, "He who is" in verse 15. That is why it is in italics. Verses 15-16 are referring to "God" who is contrasted with "Christ Jesus" in verse 13. Have men seen Yeshua/Jesus? Yes. Therefore, Yeshua cannot be the one "whom no man has seen or can see".

Whomever you serve, follow, teach about, proclaim, love, bow down to, etc. must be your God. That is Jesus,...
This is wrong thinking. I can do all those things concerning Yeshua, but that does not make him my God. My God is his God and his God is YHWH.
 

gadar perets

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All things that come into the world, even the world itself, come in parable, even Christ. But the [object] of a parable is not the [subject], so you can say they are not the same...but this does not tell the truth of what is manifest. The truth is that God is One, and the image thereof is an image, not different, but the same. Therefore, He says, "I am."

But you say, He "is not."
I don't know how to reply to this philosophy. Yeshua says, "I am ... what?" "I am YHWH"? He never said such a thing.
 

gadar perets

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The expression ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’ is about Jesus Christ and not God Almighty! God Almighty would be called God of gods.
YHWH is also called "Lord of Lords" (Deuteronomy 10:17). He is also called "the King of glory", "the King of the whole earth", and "the King of Israel". That makes Him Yeshua's King which, in turn, makes YHWH the King of all kings including Yeshua.
 

APAK

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YHWH is also called "Lord of Lords" (Deuteronomy 10:17). He is also called "the King of glory", "the King of the whole earth", and "the King of Israel". That makes Him Yeshua's King which, in turn, makes YHWH the King of all kings including Yeshua.

Yes..gadar perets:

(Deu 10:17) For Yahweh your God, He is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty and the awesome, who doesn’t respect persons nor take reward.

(Psa 136:2) Give thanks to the God of gods; for His grace endures forever.
(Psa 136:3) Give thanks to the Lord of lords; for His grace endures forever:

In OT YHWH associated with Lord of lords also connected with 'God of gods.'

In 1 Tim 6:15 I wonder why Jesus would not be associated as Lord of lords and Kings of Kings as he is called this in Revelation. He is revealed with a new title....YHWH is revealing Jesus for some great title. Else it might be overkill to add another title to YHWH here as is he already called the blessed Ruler in verse 15...

just saying...I can see it either way when it is all said and done.

APAK
 

tabletalk

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The translation you gave above is deceiving and wrong which is why "it seems to teach that Jesus is God". The Greek does not say, "He who is" in verse 15. That is why it is in italics. Verses 15-16 are referring to "God" who is contrasted with "Christ Jesus" in verse 13. Have men seen Yeshua/Jesus? Yes. Therefore, Yeshua cannot be the one "whom no man has seen or can see".


This is wrong thinking. I can do all those things concerning Yeshua, but that does not make him my God. My God is his God and his God is YHWH.

I can't tell if these verses are claiming that Jesus is God. Thanks for pointing some things out, although I think leaving out the words "He who is" in verse 15 still doesn't convince me that 15 and 16 are referring to God.
Would you say that you must accuse trinitarians of idolatry, worshipping a false God (Jesus)?
 

ScottA

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Then you are not making any sense.

You can't have it both ways. Either Jesus is "I am" (God), or He is not. Either you believe Him and what is written of Him, or you do not. You say He is your Lord. Is your Lord a liar?

...But here you say He is ("I am", meaning God) after saying He is not.

Like I said, you're not making any sense.
 
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