Miracle At My Church - 2

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Wrangler

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Some months ago I was blessed to report a miracle at my church. Miracle At My Church I am blessed to report another miracle.

My church has been led by the same family for 4 decades. Now, the 2nd generation has taken over. The youngest son is the lead Pastor. The daughter is the Executive Director. A 3rd son is not in the family business as they say. This 3rd son was in Lodi, Ohio watching a basketball game a last weekend with his in-laws.

During the game his FIL collapsed from his seat on the bleachers and fell to the ground. As people rushed to him, he got up and sat down on his own accord, waving people off, a bit embarrassed as people kept going toward him to check on him.

You can imagine how disturbing it was for everyone to see a spectator collapse on the ground. You have to admit it is not an every day occurrence.

As soon as he sat down after waving people off and relaxed, his head went back, his eyes rolled back. He was unconscious and fell on the ground again, completely unresponsive.

They administered CPR until the paramedics arrived. Remaining unresponsive, the EMT's exercised their protocol of administering CPR. Putting him on the gurney, everyone in the basketball court could see he was dead. The game was canceled and you could hear a pin drop as everyone left.

Having children, the family focused on distracting the kids and keeping them calm. The 3rd son was just waiting for the inevitable call from the ER doctor, they did everything they could, blah blah blah, then confirming what everyone already knew, that the FIL was dead.

The call came, confirming the FIL was dead for 10-15 minutes. The doctor went on to say that he could not explain it but the FIL was resuscitated, still in ICU but stable. A week later he is not even in the hospital and has resumed his normal life. Praise God!
 

quietthinker

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What? people were kind to each other? ....that surely is a miracle!
 

Aunty Jane

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You know Wrangler, there is more to a ‘miracle’ than someone merely coming back from the brink. If CPR was administered for the whole time he was unconscious, the brain was receiving oxygen and being clinically dead is not the same as being brain dead. You can live without a beating heart for some time if CPR is circulating oxygenated blood to the vital organs....especially the brain.

I always wonder, when I hear about such things, how they correlate to the miracles of the Bible?
What were the first century miracles for? Was it just a random person getting sick and dying and then being revived? What is there about the resurrections recorded and in the Bible, and what was accomplished by them? In each case they were a witness to the power of God, not performed as some random act, but before witnesses to bring praise to God. Those who witnessed such things as the dead being raised...the blind regaining sight....or the deaf being able to hear for the first time.....the disabled walking.....there were witnesses to these things and it was clear that it was a miracle because of who performed it.

All the miracles were a foregleam of what we can expect to see in the new world to come....the healing of the sick and the resurrection of the dead....it wasn’t to be something continued after the apostolic period, as Paul indicated that the gifts would cease, having accomplished what God had sent them to do. They also showed the Jewish leaders that God had abandoned them and was backing the disciples of Jesus Christ, despite the fact that he was no longer with them.

The Bible indicates that all the gifts of the spirit were passed on by the laying on of hands of the apostles. Once the apostles died the gifts would die with them.

It’s wonderful that the man you spoke of, survived....but more a miracle of medicine than a miracle of God I would think.
Many people are brought into the ER who are not expected to pull through...but they do, despite the odds. Although the word “miracle” might be used, I have grave doubts that God is involved. Many Christians pray for miracles that never happen.....what do you tell them?

I really don’t believe that God picks people at random to “save” them from death....because where does that leave all the other good people who are not saved? We buried such a man today.....a man of God, a dedicated Christian and a cherished husband and father.....where was God for him and the hundreds of other good people who succumb to cancer and other devastating illnesses or accidents?

I am very dubious about modern day ‘miracles’. The devil can use them to his own advantage because that is one of the things that the false Christians claim to Jesus at the judgment....(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Matthew 7:21-23..
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ (NLT)

By whose power were these ‘miracles’ performed, if Jesus never knew them?
 

Wrangler

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I have grave doubts that God is involved.

Ye of little faith. God who is in control of all things and even counts the hair on our head is not involved this miracle?! Come on now. Isaiah 45:6-7. Luke 12:7

Many Christians pray for miracles that never happen.....what do you tell them?

"No" is an answer to a prayer.

We don't often rejoice immediately when God says no but we usually rejoice right away when the answer is yes. Amen?
 

Wrangler

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I really don’t believe that God picks people at random to “save” them from death....because where does that leave all the other good people who are not saved?
Dear AJ, you want answers. This is your Achilles Heel, your idol of knowledge shows itself again. The Bible teaches faith over knowledge time and again. You don't want to hear this.

From today's Devotional Reading:
12 Now all we can see of God
is like a cloudy picture
in a mirror.
Later we will see him
face to face.
We don't know everything,
but then we will,
just as God completely
understands us.
13 For now there are faith,

hope, and love.
But of these three,
the greatest is love.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (CEV)

Notice that knowledge does not even make it to the top 3?

Although I do not have THE answer to your question, my answer is that God loves us regardless. Regardless of Daniel being eaten by lions or burned alive; regardless of passing the bitter cup from Jesus, regardless of letting Peter escape jail but let Paul be beheaded. Regardless of bringing back Lazarus but not David's infant son. Have faith in his loving Providence.
 

Wrangler

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I am very dubious about modern day ‘miracles’. The devil can use them to his own advantage because that is one of the things that the false Christians claim to Jesus at the judgment....(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
Dear AJ, no one is taking credit for this miracle.

And I know your religion prohibits recognizing modern day miracles - even though they happen all the time. Aren't we his temple?
 
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Wrangler

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Matthew 7:21-23..
“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ (NLT)

By whose power were these ‘miracles’ performed, if Jesus never knew them?

Oy vey! I am surprised at how literally you are taking this verse. "I never knew you" cannot literally apply to an all knowing deity. Obviously, these miracles were performed by God's power through Christ's name. It's just that the conduit of God's grace also backslid, failing to do the will of God.

The sinner was not told to get away from our lord because he exercised miraculous power through Satan but because he broke God's laws.
 

Aunty Jane

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@Wrangler.....I’m sorry if I hit have a nerve again, but it is my personal belief that the kind of miracles that happen today, particularly those performed in a showy religious setting are not from God. It’s theatre and the placebo effect at work. But those who claim miracles just because they beat the odds, are not genuine miracles IMO, no matter how much we might want to believe it.

I am not sure that God would ever say “no...I am going to let you die, but I am going to save your brother, or your infant, or your father”....is God up there pointing fingers at some people to live whilst letting others die?.....some suffering the most awful deaths...is this the God you worship?
What possible reason would God offer, to do that? Was that the way the first Christians saw miracles?

They were performed BY God’s servants with a view to changing deep seated attitudes among the Jews who knew about the miracles of the past. By demonstrating his power that way, God showed them that he had abandoned the Pharisees and embraced the disciples of his appointed King.

The miracles were also a demonstration of the things promised under the rulership of God’s kingdom.
Read Revelation 21:1-4 to see what we can expect in the future.

We can’t let emotion carry us away.....reality is what we live day to day, so wanting to see “miracles” today can be a trap that the devil can use to deceive us into believing something that is not true. Do we want to allow him do that? Feelings should not dictate our attitude towards anything without the backup of scripture.....it is God’s way of communicating with his servants on earth and has been ever since Moses began to document his dealings with his chosen nation. What is written is important because Jesus used the scriptures to settle all things.....even when confronted with the devil, his response to the temptations was “it is written”....so that should be our first port of call as well. What does God’s word have to say about it?

It’s not idolising knowledge.....it’s depending on God’s word to guide and direct us.....not our personal feelings about anything. Feelings can be manipulated and the devil knows how to do that.

2 Timothy 3:16-17...
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”

This is what we need to rely on for every decision we make.....as Jesus did. He of course was also guided by God’s holy spirit, but today people can claim to have it, and perform “miracles” that are actually backed up by the wrong power....we must never underestimate the devil’s deceptive power. (Look what he did to Job)

He can make a lie look like the truth and the truth look like a lie....we have already seen this with the trinity...he has the majority believing it. Isn’t this why “few” are on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) They worship a different God because they have two other gods in the Father’s place.

When Jesus says “I never knew you” he means that he has never recognised those ones as his true disciples, even though they believed that they were “doing the will of the Father”....prophesying, expelling demons, and performing miracles “in his name”. Can those who practice what God condemns ever be guided by God’s spirit? If those who are deceived do not know that they are, who is to blame for that? God’s word is accessible to everyone. Jehovah has made sure of that. The devil can only mislead those who reject the truth. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

I meant no offence but simply wanted to respond to this subject as we had buried a dear friend yesterday. It struck a nerve with me.....
 

Wrangler

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@Wrangler.....I’m sorry if I hit have a nerve again, but it is my personal belief that the kind of miracles that happen today, particularly those performed in a showy religious setting are not from God.
I know you believe that. No evidence can alter your belief. This is because you lack faith in the living God to act today.

This was the sermon topic Sunday. You did not hit a nerve. I did. Hence, your many multi-paragraph posts, rationalizing your lack of faith. ;)
 

Wrangler

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We can’t let emotion carry us away
No one said anything about emotion. But I can see you are just ignoring all the posts I already made.

The basic problem with JW, that I can see, is the complete lack of the Spirit of God, coupled with total reliance on your own understanding. If one experiences something you do not understand, you always dismiss it as getting emotionally carried away.
 

quietthinker

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I know you believe that. No evidence can alter your belief. This is because you lack faith in the living God to act today.

This was the sermon topic Sunday. You did not hit a nerve. I did. Hence, your many multi-paragraph posts, rationalizing your lack of faith. ;)
ah yes, it's everybody else!....did I miss anyone?......ahhhh, of course, I missed me! :) Man! what an insight, I missed me.
 

Aunty Jane

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I know you believe that. No evidence can alter your belief. This is because you lack faith in the living God to act today.
We lack no faith in the living God today because the actions of his spirit among his people are obvious.....his spirit creates a unity of belief and purpose that we do not see in any other global brotherhood. (1 Corinthians 1:10.....Christianity cannot be disunited rabble!)

Why do we need 'miracles' which the devil can mimic? How does anyone know that the power is from God? Miracles are clearly the work of the devil in the post apostolic period according to scripture....we don't have to wonder because there are no genuine miracles in today's world like there was in the first century. There doesn't have to be.....this is the judgment period where people will be caught in the act of being themselves. God will not interfere with their choices....there are only "sheep" or "goats"....Jesus knows which is which.

We take care of each other like no other brotherhood I have ever seen. When you become one of Jehovah's Witnesses you are members of a global family, not just a local church. We know that what we believe is shared by every member, because the truth is the truth universally.....it doesn't matter what nation we occupy, the truth unites us.
We are known the world over for our preaching.....using the same method as Jesus' apostles and disciples used. (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 5:42) The very same method is used by emergency services who call "door to door" so that they don't miss anyone.
The "great commission" is the preaching and disciple making work that Jesus *commanded* (it wasn't optional).....who else does what we do?
In every nation, we present the same message to everyone we preach to, who all accept the same truth. (Matthew 28:19-20) What member of any church has sought you out to teach you about God's Kingdom and to warn you of the coming judgment? How many even know what the Kingdom is....what it will accomplish....and where it will take us?

This was the sermon topic Sunday. You did not hit a nerve. I did. Hence, your many multi-paragraph posts, rationalizing your lack of faith. ;)
There was nothing I wrote that cannot be backed up by scripture...something you seem to find unnecessary for some reason....my faith is strengthened by God's word, not weakened by things that Christ never taught.
 

Wrangler

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Why do we need 'miracles' which the devil can mimic? How does anyone know that the power is from God?
We know because the Bible says by their fruit, you shall know them.

It's not that we 'need' miracles. By God's grace he has granted us miracles. The idea that the devil is raising Christ followers is so absurd for all it does it bring people closer to God. Not a good devil, as far as devils go. :rolleyes:
 

quietthinker

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We lack no faith in the living God today because the actions of his spirit among his people are obvious.....his spirit creates a unity of belief and purpose that we do not see in any other global brotherhood. (1 Corinthians 1:10.....Christianity cannot be disunited rabble!)

Why do we need 'miracles' which the devil can mimic? How does anyone know that the power is from God? Miracles are clearly the work of the devil in the post apostolic period according to scripture....we don't have to wonder because there are no genuine miracles in today's world like there was in the first century. There doesn't have to be.....this is the judgment period where people will be caught in the act of being themselves. God will not interfere with their choices....there are only "sheep" or "goats"....Jesus knows which is which.

We take care of each other like no other brotherhood I have ever seen. When you become one of Jehovah's Witnesses you are members of a global family, not just a local church. We know that what we believe is shared by every member, because the truth is the truth universally.....it doesn't matter what nation we occupy, the truth unites us.
We are known the world over for our preaching.....using the same method as Jesus' apostles and disciples used. (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 5:42) The very same method is used by emergency services who call "door to door" so that they don't miss anyone.
The "great commission" is the preaching and disciple making work that Jesus *commanded* (it wasn't optional).....who else does what we do?
In every nation, we present the same message to everyone we preach to, who all accept the same truth. (Matthew 28:19-20) What member of any church has sought you out to teach you about God's Kingdom and to warn you of the coming judgment? How many even know what the Kingdom is....what it will accomplish....and where it will take us?


There was nothing I wrote that cannot be backed up by scripture...something you seem to find unnecessary for some reason....my faith is strengthened by God's word, not weakened by things that Christ never taught.
you witness to yourself!
 
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Aunty Jane

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We know because the Bible says by their fruit, you shall know them.
Who's fruits are we talking about? It has to be one united brotherhood who all accept the same truth. There are not many versions of the truth...there can be only one....so who has it? We can't all be right.....and when Christ comes as judge he will reject those who have failed to "do the will of the Father".....so what is "the will of the Father"? (Matthew 7:21-23)

It's not that we 'need' miracles. By God's grace he has granted us miracles. The idea that the devil is raising Christ followers is so absurd for all it does it bring people closer to God. Not a good devil, as far as devils go. :rolleyes:
I completely disagree with that....Paul said that the gifts would cease....the only mention of miracles in the later times was connected to the devil as a deception. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

1 Corinthians 13:8-13....ESV.
"As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."


The gifts of the spirit were given for a time and a reason......when the Christian congregation was in its infancy, they needed the kinds of things that would attract spiritual "children", but the Christians had to grow up and realize that there was so much more to being a disciple of Christ than miracles.

The identifying marks for genuine Christianity are "faith...hope....and love"....not miracles.
John 13:34-35...
"I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

No miracles are required....because the prayers for a miracle that go unanswered apply to the majority.....is this the god you worship?
The one who says "no you can't have a miracle, but I'll do one for someone else" ? If miracles were from God then would he deny them to all his children?

You can't have faith without knowledge.....you cannot preach without knowledge.
Romans 10:14-15.....
"However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
 

Wrangler

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There was nothing I wrote that cannot be backed up by scripture...something you seem to find unnecessary for some reason
AJ, this is not a Scriptural debate forum but a Praise forum. I am praising the living God from my lived experience, not pedentically showing off my head knowledge of parchment.

Your idolatry of and pride in knowledge is unbecoming of God's children. I'll give you a Scripture verse to ponder. Then he said: I promise you this. If you don't change and become like a child, you will never get into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3 (CEV).
 

Wrangler

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I completely disagree with that....Paul said that the gifts would cease....the only mention of miracles in the later times was connected to the devil as a deception. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

That is false. You can disagree all you want. This must be a false teaching of JW. Paul did NOT say gifts would cease. Your own reference does not say this.
14 And it is no wonder. Even Satan tries to make himself look like an angel of light. 15 So why does it seem strange for Satan's servants to pretend to do what is right? Someday they will get exactly what they deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (CEV)

He did say to be eager for gifts. Why would he say to be eager for gifts if they were to cease? 1 Corinthians 14:1.