Must Christians obey government

[APAK]

A topic that is especially timely today in this fallen world that is getting 'smaller' every year.

Today, many people are in fear whether imagined or true. Some people are resisting government, many are obedient to it.

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

Are there times when Christians should resist government? And if so, how are they to conduct themselves?

Please cite scripture where and when possible as the 'glue' of these discussions as in all biblical discussions of debate.

Thank you,

Blessings

APAK

 

[Josho]

Well I just found this thread here is what the Bible says. @Jay Ross may also be interested.

Romans 13:1-5
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

 

[Josho]

1 Peter 2:13-17

13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution,whether it be to the emperoras supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

 

[Josho]

Titus 3:1-2
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

 

[historyb]

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

Are there times when Christians should resist government? And if so, how are they to conduct themselves?

We obey God rather than man. We should peacefully resist as many Churches in California are including mine own and we are ready to go to jail.

 

[APAK]

Well I just found this thread here is what the Bible says. @Jay Ross may also be interested.

Romans 13:1-5
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

Let me start off by offering a brief context of these verses you wrote. I don't have much time to do much more right now....

It was at Rome under a ruthless government as one would find in today's N. Korea, China or surprisingly even in odd places in the West today.

It was an appeal to Christians to avoid unnecessary pain, hardship, even death with a conscience that the Spirit requires, from a government that was unyielding to their voices as they were already in a prison if not in a physical one as Paul lived at the time. Their lives would be prolonged if they were humble, submissive and obedient to the Romans. This theme is throughout scripture. These Christians had no rights to do anything in this environment they lived in. They came from conquered lands. Rome treated them as slaves and cattle. This is the setting and the audience for Paul.

Later then on more feedback..I will be speaking then of other examples in scripture that's fits Paul's concern for fellow Christians and OT saints..and where these verses and others, show necessary Spirit-led acts of resistance...and even defiance..

APAK

 

[Josho]

Let me start off by offering a brief context of these verses you wrote. I don't have much time to do much more right now....

It was at Rome under a ruthless government as one would find in today's N. Korea, China or surprisingly even in odd places in the West today.

It was an appeal to Christians to avoid unnecessary pain, hardship, even death with a conscience that the Spirit requires, from a government that was unyielding to their voices as they were already in a prison if not in a physical one as Paul lived at the time. Their lives would be prolonged if they were humble, submissive and obedient to the Romans. This theme is throughout scripture. These Christians had no rights to do anything in this environment they lived in. They came from conquered lands. Rome treated them as slaves and cattle. This is the setting and the audience for Paul.

Later then on more feedback..I will be speaking then of other examples in scripture that's fits Paul's concern for fellow Christians and OT saints..and where these verses and others, show necessary Spirit-led acts of resistance...and even defiance..

APAK

We are nothing compared to North Korea or China.

If the Holy Spirit leads then that's fine.

But what we are also seeing is far right wingers going against the law, because they are missing getting drunk with their mates and having wild times and wild parties.

As I said in the other thread, the current covid-19 restrictions are to prevent a far bigger spread of the virus and to keep people safe.

There have even been reports of some in churches/church groups that have caught covid-19. @Giuliano would know about that.

In most countries like Australia you are still free to worship at home with those living in your household, you are still free to fellowship online, these restrictions don't effect your Salvation.

As in Romans chapter 13, it says do what is right, by obeying the law to keep others safe, that is doing what is right.

An all out dangerous move to lift all restrictions could potentially see an extra tens of millions, maybe even a hundred million extra of people dying around the world, there would be many cases of infected people not even getting ventilators or the oxygen that they need. Due to restrictions though the amount of people that have been dying because of Covid-19 is still under a million, it's still a lot of deaths though.

I am pro-life so I support the restrictions they have in place here in Victoria. I am glad to be living in Australia, where they have dealt with the virus quickly and effectively.

 

[Josho]

We are nothing compared to North Korea or China.

If the Holy Spirit leads then that's fine.

But what we are also seeing is far right wingers going against the law, because they are missing getting drunk with their mates and having wild times and wild parties.

As I said in the other thread, the current covid-19 restrictions are to prevent a far bigger spread of the virus and to keep people safe.

There have even been reports of some in churches/church groups that have caught covid-19. @Giuliano would know about that.

In most countries like Australia you are still free to worship at home with those living in your household, you are still free to fellowship online, these restrictions don't effect your Salvation.

As in Romans chapter 13, it says do what is right, by obeying the law to keep others safe, that is doing what is right.

An all out dangerous move to lift all restrictions could potentially see an extra tens of millions, maybe even a hundred million extra of people dying around the world, there would be many cases of infected people not even getting ventilators or the oxygen that they need. Due to restrictions though the amount of people that have been dying because of Covid-19 is still under a million, it's still a lot of deaths though.

I am pro-life so I support the restrictions they have in place here in Victoria. I am glad to be living in Australia, where they have dealt with the virus quickly and effectively.

In many ways it has opened new doors for pastors and priests to preach and Evangelize, what was held in between 4 Church walls has now gone global, many, many Churches have gone global because of lockdown, and are reaching many people.

And many preachers, teachers, pastors and priests are reaching people who would not usually go to Church.

 

[Josho]

In many ways it has opened new doors for pastors and priests to preach and Evangelize, what was held in between 4 Church walls has now gone global, many, many Churches have gone global because of lockdown, and are reaching many people.

And many preachers, teachers, pastors and priests are reaching people who would not usually go to Church.

This lockdown has allowed us to watch live services hundreds or even thousands and thousands of kilometres across from the other side of the earth.

 

[historyb]

This lockdown has allowed us to watch live services hundreds or even thousands and thousands of kilometres across from the other side of the earth.

and allowed countless suicides. This was all non sense and didn't help anything, it was a liberal communist takeover and it dang near worked because people trusted in fear and not God

 

[Josho]

and allowed countless suicides. This was all non sense and didn't help anything, it was a liberal communist takeover and it dang near worked because people trusted in fear and not God

I believe what was being weighed up was the amount of deaths between action being taken and no action being taken. In total, I believe there would have been a lot more deaths if no action was taken to fight the pandemic.

There are mental health services out there that are trying their best to deal with people's depression and prevent them from taking their lives.

 

[historyb]

I believe what was being weighed up was the amount of deaths between action being taken and no action being taken. In total, I believe there would have been a lot more deaths if no action was taken to fight the pandemic.

I will disagree. The lock down made absolutely no different even our CDC and Dr. Fauci admitted that. It was all a show to get us to be sheep and I hate them absolutely for that, may hell be their home. In our country they created more death, the governor in NY is directly responsible for 30,000 nursing home deaths when he forced nursing homes to take people with covid. This whole thing is a lie Satan put upon the world, and you know the sad part - we fell for Satan's lie.

 

[Josho]

I will disagree. The lock down made absolutely no different even our CDC and Dr. Fauci admitted that. It was all a show to get us to be sheep and I hate them absolutely for that, may hell be their home. In our country they created more death, the governor in NY is directly responsible for 30,000 nursing home deaths when he forced nursing homes to take people with covid. This whole thing is a lie Satan put upon the world, and you know the sad part - we fell for Satan's lie.

Well then we will agree to disagree.

I live in a country where most still believe that the government does some things for the better of people, they might make some wrong decisions, but they still do make right decisions as well, even the left wing governments still make some right decisions.

John Howard 1996, a big reformation of gun laws and introducing tougher gun control laws, that decision ended up saving many lives and that was an Aussie right wing government at the time, which may sound like a total left wing move to Americans, but it ended up saving many lives.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... In total, I believe there would have been a lot more deaths if no action was taken to fight the pandemic. ...

U.S. COVID-19 Death Toll Is Inflated | RealClearPolitics!
The latest Centers for Disease Control data show that the COVID-19 fatality rate is 0.26% -- four times higher than the worst rate for the seasonal flu over the past decade. That is dramatically lower than the World Health Organization’s estimate of 3.4% and Dr. Anthony Fauci’s initial guess of about 2%.​

... and I would suspect that 0.25% is SILL INFLATED, -- with or without all the Shut-Downs, Masks, and Social Distancing --. But it DOES ruin our economy and lives, and MOST IMPORTANTLY -- it gives the Democratic Party CRITICISMS (fake as they may be) for the Republicans in an election year.

------------------------------------------------

And in our local grocery store Corporate Policy was only to ASK, but not to DEMAND that I wear a Face Mask and that the POLICE would NEVER be called if I declined to wear a Face Mask. So when I entered the store, I declined to wear a Face Mask, and then the staff VIOLATED Corporate Policy and their own copy of the Corporate Memorandum to the Store by DEMANDING that I wear a Face Mask or leave. And as I was leaving some of the Store personnel actually had the POLICE on the phone as I was LEAVING! And I'm still waiting for an apology from the Store Manager some two months later ...

Silly sheep!
Bobby Jo

 

[Brakelite]

Before the time of Christ the Roman republic was considered god. The state was god. Everything and everybody was subordinate to the state. The state ruled all. By the time Christ came, the state had reposed in the person of Caesar. Caesar was at the time of Christ considered divine, as the state was divine, so now is Caesar. So when Christ said "Render to Caesar that which is Caesars, and to God that which is God's, Jesus was placing an impenetrable barrier between the state, and God, and was a direct affront to the divine claims of statehood or kingly power over the individual conscience. It is up to the individual conscience to decide what things pertain to God, and what things pertain to the state. Yet Jesus nor Paul suggested that the state had no place at all. The scripture merely proposes that the state take its rightful place, and stay there. The moment the state encroaches upon territory rightly belonging to God, it takes upon itself authority to which it has no legal claim. There are things in which the state has jurisdiction...in those areas the state is to be respected. In those areas where the state has no jurisdiction, men ought to obey God rather than men.

 

[David H.]

A topic that is especially timely today in this fallen world that is getting 'smaller' every year.

Today, many people are in fear whether imagined or true. Some people are resisting government, many are obedient to it.

Should Christians obey government under any circumstance(s)?

Are there times when Christians should resist government? And if so, how are they to conduct themselves?

Please cite scripture where and when possible as the 'glue' of these discussions as in all biblical discussions of debate.

Apak,
Let me say there are seasons when the righteous thing to do is resist. For example we have most of Christendom in Germany under Hitler being silent in the face of His antisemitism, and hatred, yet a few voices resisted to their own detriment and some even tried to help the Jews survive such as the Ten Boom family. So in the face of atrocity and tyranny we as Christians should never remain silent, but we should always speak the truth in Love to those who are in power... Paul did over and over again, Stephen filled with the Holy Ghost did not hold back, but spoke the truth and was stoned for it. We as Christians are the salt of the earth, when we lose our saltiness is when we are not worth anything. We are the light to a fallen world, we need to let that light shine, not hide it in an earthen vessel. We are not given the spirit of fear, and there is coming a time when we will be brought before councils and tried, when we will have to give our testimony, we will not hold back then as the Holy Spirit will give us unction to speak the truth, we must merely speak what he give us to say.

And then self defense is a whole different question as well. When Tyranny becomes too powerful, there is but one option remaining to fight. When the beast says take the mark or else, it is resistance to authority to refuse the mark. Romans 13 will not apply then, now will it?

Even the preaching of the Gospel in some places is against the authorities of those nations. This country is quickly evolving into that as well even now. What happens then? does Romans 13 apply? or will you Obey God and continue the great commission?

When does romans 13 apply? when the government is not out to destroy you for your faith, when you have freedom to preach the word and speak the truth, even if it offends. Not a popular thing these days, but just remember that our only offensive weapon is the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God Everything else is defensive.... swing the sword till you have no more strength to and even then the Holy Ghost will give you the words when you have none ....See Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

 

[marksman]

Well I just found this thread here is what the Bible says. @Jay Ross may also be interested.

Romans 13:1-5
Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience.

Now apply that to the government of North Korea where you can be thrown into prison for owning a bible.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Now apply that to the government of North Korea where you can be thrown into prison for owning a bible.

SHEEPLE are individuals who RESIST Government oppression! -- That's Orwell's "doublespeak".


... I'm not a sheeple ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Josho]

Now apply that to the government of North Korea where you can be thrown into prison for owning a bible.

Post #7
"We are nothing compared to North Korea."

We are allowed to own Bibles in Australia, USA, Canada, New Zealand, UK, Europe and a number of other countries.

 

[Josho]

@marksman

When is it okay to disobey the government and authorities? Are there any exceptions?

Let me give you an example.

If you are in North Korea or China or some severely persecuted country and they tell you to renounce Christianity, then you can and should disobey them, if Bibles are banned, then it's perfectly fine to disobey the government, go get a Bible, own one and read one.