Nation born in a day in 1948?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I don't know Hibbs.
but the prophecy states: Can a nation be born in a day? and Israel was! but you ignore the prophecies where God gathers Israel back to pour out His anger and fury to prepare them to receive th eMessiah.
Ezekiel 20:
33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
He is not ruling over them now. He does deal with them in the 'wilderness of the people' But where do you get that this means that He brings them back in 1948?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well in Ezekiel it speaks of them brought back in the latter times (hindermost time) But let us loo at teh Ezekile passage again:
Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version
33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
He deals by passing them under teh rod and purging out the rebels. God HImself will bring them into teh bond of the New covenant. Matter of fact it is the last three days of teh 7 year tribulation that teh veil is finally removed fromo Israel, and as a nationthey finally know and receive Jesus as messiah and call on Him and say the words blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord (Matt.) and it is this that causes the Lord to return.
First to Petra to break the siege made by the antichrist:
Isaiah 63
King James Version
63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
Then battles back to jerusalem where He slays the antichrist and false prophet and ascends the Mount of Olives and splits it in two.
I didn't see the hindermost thing you said was here. Where is it?
He has been doing that for millennia. (dealing with Israel) You need to pin it in the Tribulation or the end somehow if you claim it must apply there.
[/QUOTE] Nothing to do with 1948.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
History of the birth of the modern-day state of Israel
1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.
2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration:
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.
3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem. Most of the Biblical Judah/Judea is outside of it.
4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.
So the modern state known as Israel is the realization of the goal of the Zionist movement, a movement of mostly secular people, which was founded by Theodor Herzl in August 1897, and which was intended for the benefit of an extremely persecuted people who identify as Jews, who for the most part are of mixed ethnicity and ancestry, and for the most part are secular, but are nevertheless of one and the same religious background, and trace at least part of their genetic ancestry back to Abraham, via Isaac and Jacob.
The above is the most recent history of the house of Judah. However, with the exception of the small remnant, from circa AD 725, and following their exile, the house of Israel became scattered among the nations, where their descendants intermarried with Gentiles. The seed of Ephraim/the house of Israel had become mixed with the seed of the Gentiles by the time of Christ.
Hosea 1:10-11a
10 But still the number of the children of Israel will be like the sand of the sea, which may not be measured or numbered; and in place of its being said to them, You are not my people, it will be said to them, You are the sons of the living God
11 And the children of Israel and the children of Judah will come together and take for themselves one head.
Romans 9
24 Even us, who were marked out by him, not only from the Jews, but from the Gentiles?
25 As he says in Hosea, They will be named my people who were not my people, and she will be loved who was not loved.
26 And in the place where it was said to them, You are not my people, there they will be named the sons of the living God.
I believe in a coming literal 1,000 years, but God fulfills prophecy, not men who do not even believe in Jesus, and I do not believe the Zionist project has the blessing of God while those who prefer and pursue man's way are still in rejection of Christ. Yet the realization of the goals of determined men who do not believe in Jesus, to force a fulfillment of the prophecies of God which God fulfills in Jesus, is something about which many Christians exclaim, "Look what God is doing. And it is marvelous in our eyes". I think this Christian statement is even more of an insult to God and the Lord Jesus Christ than the continued rejection of Christ by Judah.
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
False. Israel (whether God brought them back there or not) has to be there to be able to be invaded, eventually repent, etc. If God had brought them back, their enemies would be long gone and wiped out now. They really would be in peace, have repented, etc etc. God is not done with Israel, and they have a glorious future. He is no more done with them than He is with Christians.
You seem to be saying that you agree that the nation modern Israel is not a result of God bringing them back to the land in 1948. Not sure what other point you are trying to make, maybe be clear.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with 1948.[/QUOTE]
Yes but not since 1948 has God been bringing Israel back from the nations they were scattered.
Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version
33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
Israel until the Jews returned was a wilderness. where will he gather them?
Ezekiel 38:8
King James Version
8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
Says who? They are getting on planes and travelling, yes. Why blame God? When He brings the remnant back, their enemies will be finished. History. Gone. Wiped out. They will also be in real peace..etc. That is not today, period.
That is something that God has done more than once. You cannot place that in the end times or 1948. Most commentaries I looked at place that section as history.
Yes the nation will have to exist to attack it. That does not mean God brought them there.
I do not think anything like that. The issue here is whether God already brought the Jewish people back to the land or whether they went there of their own accord and prophesy just acknowledges that.
Well, we could say that God wants Canada to be a nation and push for unnatural antichrist baby killing policies I suppose. We could say He wanted Hitler to invade other countries etc. The issue is prophesy here. The prophesies about when God brings them back after they repent and after He returns to rule earth. That was not 1948.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I'm saying that It's not a result of God bringing them back. Nor does God call Gentiles or Jews who are not in Christ, by the name of "Israel". They may call themselves "Israel" but if they are not found in Christ through faith in Christ, then Jews who call themselves "Israel" are no more Israel than Japanese people who do not believe in Jesus, calling themselves "Israel".
The nation that calls itself Israel today is the realized goal of secular Zionists. It just so happens that most secular Israeli Jews see God's hand in the birth of the 1948 state of Israel as much as I do (which is not at all).
God had no hand in it. Many religious Jews are trying to force a fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies which only God fulfills, and which are only fulfilled in Christ, but they attempt to do so to the exclusion of Christ. And so when this is done, many Christians exclaim, "See what God is doing in Israel. And it is marvelous in our eyes".
In my opinion those Christians who say the above or hold the above sentiments are the real Replacement Theologians, because by their theology they seek to replace God's work and the Israel that God established in Christ (the root of the olive tree) with another so-called "Israel" - those of the natural descendants of Abraham who have remained broken off from Israel through unbelief, and whatever work this other (state of "Israel") does for themselves, many Christians ascribe to God, which is in my opinion an insult to God and to His Christ.
1948's so-called "Israel" and 1967's reunification of Jerusalem is the realized goal of a people who are not Israel in God's eyes. It's not the work of God - either by God's preordained purpose, or by accident.
Romans 11 (Paul speaking to Gentiles who are considered Israel through faith in Christ)
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root (Christ), but the root bears you.
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!
22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
Since the days of Isaac and Jacob and the twelve tribes, there has always been only one Israel, not two. Many of Jacob's genetic seed are broken off through their unbelief. They are not part of Israel. Israel consists only of Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ through faith in Christ.
God has fulfilled His covenant and His promises to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, fulfilling them in the day that Jesus shed His blood:
"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah."
"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Jeremiah 31:31; Matthew 26:28).
So if there is a regathering into the land that has been promised by God, then it will be God's work and it has not happened yet. In Ezekiel they are said to live in peace and safety in unwalled villages after God has brought true Israel (the only Israel) back into the land. One can hardly say the Jews of Israel are able to live in unwalled villages today. They have had to erect walls all over the place to sop themselves being attacked by terrorists - and most of Biblical Judah is in the West Bank - it lies outside the borders constructed by the U.N in 1947 and agreed to in 1948.
God's work will not be so clumsy.
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To me God is calling to everyone now today to come to His Son. I believe that we are past the intertestimonial age that was at the end of Jerusalem in 70ad.
Where do people come up with 1948, or 1914?
To me doesn’t make sense. Maybe it’s because it’s exciting or thrilling to think of the end times and be part of that age that once was?
There seems to be different mindsets of thinking and believing, and it’s hard to know what to believe but do believe there are historical accounts about the destruction of Jerusalem in which talk about angels coming out of the clouds by these people who witnessed the destruction. I don’t even think they were Christian.
Josephus, Tacitus, Cassio Dio, Sertonius.
Believe that is a good thing to question anything one has been taught, though if someone continues to believe that the futurist view that is fine too.
The main goal is to love.
That is my desire is to love people, even if they might disagree with me on my thinking or view.
Where do people come up with 1948, or 1914?
To me doesn’t make sense. Maybe it’s because it’s exciting or thrilling to think of the end times and be part of that age that once was?
There seems to be different mindsets of thinking and believing, and it’s hard to know what to believe but do believe there are historical accounts about the destruction of Jerusalem in which talk about angels coming out of the clouds by these people who witnessed the destruction. I don’t even think they were Christian.
Josephus, Tacitus, Cassio Dio, Sertonius.
Believe that is a good thing to question anything one has been taught, though if someone continues to believe that the futurist view that is fine too.
The main goal is to love.
That is my desire is to love people, even if they might disagree with me on my thinking or view.
@dad,
You are right, God told Abraham in Genesis 15:16 that his descendants will return to the land of Canaan in their own strength. Here is the passage which contains three separate prophecies,
1. Concerning the nation of Israel becoming slaves in Egypt and that God will bring them out with great possessions and that he will also judge that nation for their deeds against the nation of Israel while they lived in Israel.
2. Concerning Abraham that he would live out his days in peace and be buried at a good age.
3. That some of Abraham's descendants will return to the Land of Canaan in the fourth age of their existence in their own strength seeking God, but God will not give them any assistance like He said he would when He brought out of Egypt. We are also told in this one verse prophecy that the iniquities of the Amorite people would not be compete when they return.
From my research, I ascertained that Isaac was born at the beginning of the year 2052 BC and that some of Abraham's descendants returned in the year 1948 AD, 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, Abraham's first descendant that fulfilled God's promises to Abraham.
Shalom.
PS: - In the prophecies in Ezekiel where God has said that He will Gather Israel to Himself, His word is that he will plant them in the fertile field of "Israel," i.e. Christ, and teach them on, i.e. about, the mountain, i.e. religion, of "Israel," i.e. Christ, where they are living in the valleys and ravines beside the rivers where they have been scattered through the whole earth. We really need to be careful that we do not confuse what the translators have wrtten in their translations which do not reflect the same contextual messages as contain in the Hebrew texts in which they were contained.
You are right, God told Abraham in Genesis 15:16 that his descendants will return to the land of Canaan in their own strength. Here is the passage which contains three separate prophecies,
1. Concerning the nation of Israel becoming slaves in Egypt and that God will bring them out with great possessions and that he will also judge that nation for their deeds against the nation of Israel while they lived in Israel.
2. Concerning Abraham that he would live out his days in peace and be buried at a good age.
3. That some of Abraham's descendants will return to the Land of Canaan in the fourth age of their existence in their own strength seeking God, but God will not give them any assistance like He said he would when He brought out of Egypt. We are also told in this one verse prophecy that the iniquities of the Amorite people would not be compete when they return.
Genesis 15:12-16: - 12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation/age they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."
From my research, I ascertained that Isaac was born at the beginning of the year 2052 BC and that some of Abraham's descendants returned in the year 1948 AD, 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, Abraham's first descendant that fulfilled God's promises to Abraham.
Shalom.
PS: - In the prophecies in Ezekiel where God has said that He will Gather Israel to Himself, His word is that he will plant them in the fertile field of "Israel," i.e. Christ, and teach them on, i.e. about, the mountain, i.e. religion, of "Israel," i.e. Christ, where they are living in the valleys and ravines beside the rivers where they have been scattered through the whole earth. We really need to be careful that we do not confuse what the translators have wrtten in their translations which do not reflect the same contextual messages as contain in the Hebrew texts in which they were contained.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I like your post and agree, even though we possibly disagree on my futurist understanding of the book of Revelation (Revelation chapters 4 onward).
Naturally, as a futurist I do not believe that the temple and the holy city in Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to a physical temple in Jerusalem or to Jerusalem on earth, but to the Tabernacle of God and the people of God. Here are my Biblical reasons:
The Revelation calls the New Jerusalem the holy city three times (Revelation 21:2; Revelation 21:10; Revelation 22:19), so if Revelation 11:2 is an exception, it would be really odd - because that would mean that the Jerusalem on earth would be called both "the holy city" and "Sodom and Egypt" in one and the same passage.
With regard to the temple mentioned in Revelation 11:1-2, the Greek word naos is used - and the last time in the New Testament that word is used in reference to the Jerusalem temple, is in the verses describing the tearing of the veil:
Thayer's:
1 used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2 any heathen temple or shrine
3 metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ.
The word naos also appears 3 times in Acts - but not in reference to the temple in Jerusalem: Acts 7:48 ; Acts 17:24 ; Acts 19:24 (See https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/eng/greek/3485.html)
So up to the time of the tearing of the veil between the holy place and holy of holies, the word naos refers to the Old Testament temple:
After this, naos refers only to the New Testament Temple:
So if Revelation 11:1-2 is referring to the temple that stood before A.D 70, then the beast that was destroyed by Christ was Rome, and the two witnesses appeared before A.D 70, and Christ returned in A.D 70, ......
Well, I have my reasons for not believing that all the Revelation occurred by A.D 70... but these are enough reasons here.
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