Natural Theology of Mortal Souls

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robert derrick

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I believe the base teaching for the created christ cult is their natural theology, that all souls are mortal and are never separated from the body.

While the body is dead, then the soul does not exist, which is a heaven or oblivion scenario.

They therefore say that Jesus Christ did not exist for three days and nights, while His dead body was in the tomb: therefore, Jesus Christ cannot be God.

They say God is the only immortal Being, and so God cannot possibly have a soul, which would make Him spiritually and physically mortal. Therefore, He could not possibly became a man with the 'mortal' living soul of all men.

The reason for all this is simple: they reject a hell and lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked souls of men and women.
 

robert derrick

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And so, anyone arguing against the immortality of the soul of men created in God's image, must believe only in a falsely created christ, whose soul ceased to exist and did not go to hell Himself to preach to the spirits in prison.

The natural theology of mortal souls and created christs, is simply used for their heaven or oblivion hope.

They would never think of themselves being on the oblivion ticket, but I guess they like to hedge their bets.
 

Tommy Cool

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And so, anyone arguing against the immortality of the soul of men created in God's image, must believe only in a falsely created christ, whose soul ceased to exist and did not go to hell Himself to preach to the spirits in prison.

The natural theology of mortal souls and created christs, is simply used for their heaven or oblivion hope.

They would never think of themselves being on the oblivion ticket, but I guess they like to hedge their bets.

My bet is on God's Word

The subject of soul has a couple tentacles that are interesting, but I will refrain from going there.

While soul is occasionally reference as the spirit of man, (subject to context) there is no immortality or transmigration of the soul……soul and spirit (biblically) are two very different things. How people use them in secular and religious dialogue may or may not reflect Gods intent.

One of the many great things about the Word of God is….. God will define things that are necessary for us to know…. which takes all the guess work out of it….so we don’t have to make things up. And if things are not defined in the Word ….we just don’t know.

Fortunately, God has defined body, soul, and to a limited degree … spirit.

Body as we all know is this earth suit that we inhabit. It’s formed from the dust of the ground Gen 2:7 and when we die it eventually returns to dust.

Soul - is what mobilizes our earth suit. soul life is our breath life. It was created in great whales and in all mammals…first.

I could go into several other things, but since soul life is the predominant subject in your post, I will just focus on that….Although I highly doubt you will be swayed by anything I state.

The word create is to bring something into existence that did not exist before, or to make something out of nothing…. Only God can create. And once He does …He does not need to re-create it again… He just speaks it into existence … That is evident in the first chapter of Genesis. From verses 1:3 to 1:20 God speaks everything into existence that He had already created in the first heavens and earth in Gen 1:1

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living [chay] creature [nephesh] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The word “living” is the Hebrew word “chay meaning life or living. And the word translated “creature” is the Hebrew word “nephesh” meaning soul………….God tells us in Leviticus what/where the soul is.

Lev 17:11 For the life (nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls (nephesh), for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul (nephesh).

The word “life” in this verse is the same word for soul (nephesh)

As per Biology: Oxygen is delivered throughout the body by means of the red blood cells (actually it’s the hemoglobin molecules from the red cells) that deliver the oxygen to the individual cells in the body tissue. The bloodstream also picks up CO2 from the body and returns it to the lunges to be exhaled…
When we die …the heart which pumps the blood, which delivers the oxygen to the brain …… stops….. soul life ceases in that individual person …. but is carried on through prodigy….. But if there is no offspring, the soul is gone when that person dies; there is nothing immortal about the soul….as 1Corinthians 15:50 makes clear.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption…

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh).
God did not create soul life in man He made it in man it had already been created in Gen_1:21.

God is spirit ... a spirit has no form. I believe God created spirit in man and that it was spirit that died when Adam blew it…And it was spirit within us unconditionally that God made available by way of what Jesus Christ accomplished. I believe scripture supports that ….but specifically it does not state that, so take it for what it’s worth.


Brief history of Soul

Nimrod initiated the belief in Babylon. Later Zoroaster in the Assyrian-Babylon culture embrace the immortality of the soul. Daoism adopted the belief in the Chinese culture. And many of the ancient cultures accepted the idea of immaterial of the soul

The Greek philosopher Plato who lived from 427 - 347 B.C. believed that at death the body and soul were separated, but he said, “it was not the end of the soul”, he said that “the soul was indestructible”. He believed in the immortality of the soul and its eternal rewards and punishments after death. He was a student of Socrates 469 - 347 B.C. who believe the same… as did Pythagoras before him (570 – 490 B.C.)

Origen (185-254 A.D.) embraced Plato’s teaching and believed in the immortality of the soul. He believed that death the soul departed to an everlasting state of reward or everlasting punishment.

There were others, but Thomas Aquinas 1225 - 1274 A.D. crystallized the doctrine of the immortality of the soul… he wrote that the soul cannot be destroyed” in The Summa Theologica.


There is a long list of people who strung this unbiblical belief along until it became firmly entrenched in the religious doctrine…. Nowhere in the writings of man are their beliefs upheld by biblical scripture…
 

robert derrick

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While soul is occasionally reference as the spirit of man, (subject to context) there is no immortality or transmigration of the soul……soul and spirit (biblically) are two very different things. How people use them in secular and religious dialogue may or may not reflect Gods intent.

There is the soul first without the body, which every soul who believes the Scripture knows right well:

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

And there is the soul after the body is in the grave, which every soul who believes the Scripture knows Jesus' soul was not left in hell:

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Once certain Scriptures are rejected, then all else is just falsely interpreting more and more Scripture according to that first rejection.

One of the many great things about the Word of God is….. God will define things that are necessary for us to know…. which takes all the guess work out of it….so we don’t have to make things up. And if things are not defined in the Word ….we just don’t know.

True.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.


No more guess work. The soul of the man Jesus Christ was in hell, while His body was in the grave, and He went there by the Spirit.

Body as we all know is this earth suit that we inhabit. It’s formed from the dust of the ground Gen 2:7 and when we die it eventually returns to dust.

True

Soul - is what mobilizes our earth suit. soul life is our breath life. It was created in great whales and in all mammals…first.

This is where the natural man errs, relying on natural sciences rather than Scripture alone, for the true spiritual things of God and His created souls.

The life of the living soul is the Spirit breathed by Christ. The life of the natural body is the air of nature.

The Spirit is as the wind, but is not the wind itself, nor a force of nature.

The Spirit speaks expressly to the soul, while the wind says things about the natural course of the day.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Natural theology of mortal souls only gives lip service to the soul, while making the natural air to be a soul breathing in the natural body: Natural Pagan spiritism.

The word create is to bring something into existence that did not exist before, or to make something out of nothing…. Only God can create. And once He does …He does not need to re-create it again… He just speaks it into existence … That is evident in the first chapter of Genesis. From verses 1:3 to 1:20 God speaks everything into existence that He had already created in the first heavens and earth in Gen 1:1

True. And the soul ceasing to exist, when the body is dead, is an oblivion that does not exist. God does not uncreate anything.

The word “living” is the Hebrew word “chay meaning life or living. And the word translated “creature” is the Hebrew word “nephesh” meaning soul………….God tells us in Leviticus what/where the soul is.

Lev 17:11 For the life (nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls (nephesh), for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul (nephesh).
Scripture is not about what men thought of their words, but hos God uses them to reveal the true things of God, angels, and souls of men.

Scripture of God is not the ideas of Hebrews about the things of God.

The Bible is not the theological book of Hebrews.

God is not the Hebrew God.

The word nephesh used in Hebrew culture is fine for Hebrew culture, but it's use in Scripture has nothing to do with the Hebrew ideas about nephesh. The same for what the Greeks thought of the psyche.

As per Biology: Oxygen is delivered throughout the body by means of the red blood cells (actually it’s the hemoglobin molecules from the red cells) that deliver the oxygen to the individual cells in the body tissue. The bloodstream also picks up CO2 from the body and returns it to the lunges to be exhaled…
When we die …the heart which pumps the blood, which delivers the oxygen to the brain …… stops….. soul life ceases in that individual person …. but is carried on through prodigy….. But if there is no offspring, the soul is gone when that person dies; there is nothing immortal about the soul….as 1Corinthians 15:50 makes clear.

Dittoes with the natural sciences used by natural man. Great biology makes for lousy doctrine of God.

Scripture of God is breathed by His Spirit into the souls of men. It is not words given by the natural air to natural brains.

The Greek philosopher Plato who lived from 427 - 347 B.C. believed that at death the body and soul were separated, but he said, “it was not the end of the soul”, he said that “the soul was indestructible”. He believed in the immortality of the soul and its eternal rewards and punishments after death. He was a student of Socrates 469 - 347 B.C. who believe the same… as did Pythagoras before him (570 – 490 B.C.)

True. As with many myths and legends of men, there can be some truth to them. Any truth in them is when Scripture confirms it, while also correcting the false versions of it: Whether it is the flood of Gilgamesh, the resurrected Sphinx, or the hades of spiritual theology in Greek paganism.

The Bible judges all books of men, by which some are proven true to some degree.

Men are not completely devoid of any truth, but without Scripture, they grope around in the dark, trying to discover it:

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Scripture here is plainly using an established spiritual theology of Greek pagans, to confirm some of it's truth pertaining to the things of God.

Like the flood of Gilgamesh, hades in the heart of the earth with immortal souls apart from mortal flesh, is not from Greek paganism, but is from Scripture showing where some of their theology is correct, though seen darkly.

No one needs to know the flood of Gilgamesh, in order to believe the flood of Noah. Nor does any man need to know the hades of Greek theology, in order to believe in the hell in the heart of the earth for souls of men.

There is even a king of that bottomless burning pit, called Apollyon, not the god Hades.

There is a long list of people who strung this unbiblical belief along until it became firmly entrenched in the religious doctrine…. Nowhere in the writings of man are their beliefs upheld by biblical scripture…

And there is always one or two Scriptures of God to rebuke all lies about the truth of His word:

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

This one Scripture collapses all the original languages and biological sciences arguments of natural man, that try to teach from them the doctrine of God.

It also confirms the hades with souls in the heart of the earth, while the bodies remain the grave.

Greek paganism is false, spiritual theology of the immortal soul is true.
 
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marks

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I believe the base teaching for the created christ cult is their natural theology, that all souls are mortal and are never separated from the body.

While the body is dead, then the soul does not exist, which is a heaven or oblivion scenario.

They therefore say that Jesus Christ did not exist for three days and nights, while His dead body was in the tomb: therefore, Jesus Christ cannot be God.

They say God is the only immortal Being, and so God cannot possibly have a soul, which would make Him spiritually and physically mortal. Therefore, He could not possibly became a man with the 'mortal' living soul of all men.

The reason for all this is simple: they reject a hell and lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked souls of men and women.
That makes a lot of sense to me.

Much love!
 

robert derrick

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As per Biology: Oxygen is delivered throughout the body by means of the red blood cells (actually it’s the hemoglobin molecules from the red cells) that deliver the oxygen to the individual cells in the body tissue. The bloodstream also picks up CO2 from the body and returns it to the lunges to be exhaled…
When we die …the heart which pumps the blood, which delivers the oxygen to the brain …… stops….. soul life ceases in that individual person …. but is carried on through prodigy….. But if there is no offspring, the soul is gone when that person dies; there is nothing immortal about the soul….as 1Corinthians 15:50 makes clear.

Here is where natural theology of mortal souls, becomes natural pagan spiritism and environmentalism, that teaches that all natural things, whether man or beast or tree or river, have spirit in them from the common air breathed on earth.

Natural theology says the same about all flesh and blood, but calls the air we breathe, the soul: it teaches the natural world has a soul breathed by all natural things therein.

It teaches the soul is the wind of the earth, that keeps the natural body alive by breathing it.

The soul is the created being of man, that breathes only the Spirit of Christ for life.

All nature is made mortal by Christ, including trees, grass, and bodies of birds, beasts, and man:

The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field.

But only the soul of man is made in the image of God, which is immortal and righteous.

Sinning kills the soul spiritually, so that Christ no more dwells therein: the natural body of man continues, but their soul is dead as the brute beasts of the field, who have no soul nor Spirit of Christ, nor are they lightened by the light of Christ:

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.


Natural theology of mortal souls is willfully ignorant of what the Spirit says to the churches and souls of men.

They teach a lip-service to the spiritual things of God and the souls of men, so that man is made no different from beasts of the field, who all breathe the same natural air for life on earth, and they call it soul.

This natural theology of course is not from Christ, but from the prince and the power of the air, who makes himself the falsely created christ of natural soul theologians.
 

robert derrick

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There is only One Immortal, Who dwells alone in unapproachable light
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

There is only one God, that is immortal abiding in the Light: Only the true God abides immortally in the Light, whether in heaven or as a man on earth.

All other gods, that would be gods, are no gods, though they are eternal beings reserved for judgement forever, whether wicked angel or man.

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
 

Phoneman777

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There is the soul first without the body, which every soul who believes the Scripture knows right well:
Everyone, please disregard this pseudo-scholar's musings. Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly and unequivocally says the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life - it does NOT exist prior to that.

This is an unBiblical doctrine of the Mormon church (and occultism, perhaps, at large) which says men who are exalted to godhood are granted the privilege of having celestial sex with their many goddess wives in order to produce the billions of "souls" that will eventually inhabit the fleshly bodies of babies born on the planet over which they are granted the privilege to divinely rule.

Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV:

[2] Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
[3] Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

See that? They that "have not been" born are said to have not "seen" the sufferings of this world. If souls already exist before the body is born, not only would they know about this horrible place, but would most certainly be fighting each other for a spot at the back of the line.
 
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robert derrick

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Everyone, please disregard this pseudo-scholar's musings. Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly and unequivocally says the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life - it does NOT exist prior to that.

This is an unBiblical doctrine of the Mormon church (and occultism, perhaps, at large) which says men who are exalted to godhood are granted the privilege of having celestial sex with their many goddess wives in order to produce the billions of "souls" that will eventually inhabit the fleshly bodies of babies born on the planet over which they are granted the privilege to divinely rule.

Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV:

[2] Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
[3] Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

See that? They that "have not been" born are said to have not "seen" the sufferings of this world. If souls already exist before the body is born, not only would they know about this horrible place, but would most certainly be fighting each other for a spot at the back of the line.
Nothing like quoting the natural mind of a man, that has forgotten God, in order to learn the unspiritual things of natural minded flesh and blood.

He also said there is nothing new under the sun, whereas Job prophesied seeing God in the flesh on this earth.
 
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robert derrick

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The soul being created first is a matter of priority, not of time, since the Spirit quickening the soul alive, also warps the soul in the womb of a woman.

The problem with natural minds trying to interpret Scripture, is they immediately conclude things not written, base upon their own natural understanding.

They do the same with teaching of Scripture.

The soul being created first and separate from the body, does not mean the body is not already shaped in the womb, even as the body of Adam was in time first shaped, and then the soul was breathed into the natural body, so that man became a living soul in mortal flesh.

One good thing about false teaching of Scripture, and false reading of what is taught from Scripture, is the opportunity to correct it by teaching more truth of Scripture.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Like the honey out of the lion's ripped belly, out of evil, good can come:

And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness.
 

Phoneman777

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Nothing like quoting the natural mind of a man, that has forgotten God, in order to learn the unspiritual things of natural minded flesh and blood.

He also said there is nothing new under the sun, whereas Job prophesied seeing God in the flesh on this earth.
First you discount the stellar scholarship of learned men, NOW YOU CONDEMN SOLOMON? A blind man can see that "nothing new under the sun" refers to the things of man - not God - but the spiritually blind will lead himself and those who follow him into a ditch. Even the word "forever" when it refers to the affairs of God means "for eternity" but when it refers to the affairs of men it means "all the days of life".

I'm happy I was able to show everyone from Ecclesiastes 4 and Genesis 2 that souls do not come into existence until the moment when the Body and the Breath of Life are united...and that when the Breath returns to God and the Body returns to the Earth, the Soul ceases to exist ------------- which means there's no such thing as Eternal Torment because when the wicked come up in the Resurrection of the Damned and go for their swim in Fire Lake they will again "pass away" out of existence in the Second Death, a permanent death, an everlasting death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.
 

face2face

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I believe the base teaching for the created christ cult is their natural theology, that all souls are mortal and are never separated from the body.

While the body is dead, then the soul does not exist, which is a heaven or oblivion scenario.

They therefore say that Jesus Christ did not exist for three days and nights, while His dead body was in the tomb: therefore, Jesus Christ cannot be God.

They say God is the only immortal Being, and so God cannot possibly have a soul, which would make Him spiritually and physically mortal. Therefore, He could not possibly became a man with the 'mortal' living soul of all men.

The reason for all this is simple: they reject a hell and lake of fire with eternal torment for the wicked souls of men and women.
This is correct for the most part.
 
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robert derrick

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This is correct for the most part.
Thank you. I must say you have the most integrity of anyone I have disagreed with.

What I try to do, is to strip all teachings of the fluffy stuff, and get down to the bare bones. It's the same that I do with my own teaching.

And most people get offended, so that they either misrepresent what I am showing about their teaching, or just attack the messenger.

Several times, you have acknowledge the accuracy of my commentary of your doctrine, without any offense or sign of weakness.

You know what you teach and why, and you don't mind others repeating it in their own words, so long as it is correct.

I applaud you, even if we disagree over the doctrine of mortal souls.

Afterall, what matters most is our inward purity with Jesus Christ, and walking as He walked on earth.
 

Jim B

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Everyone, please disregard this pseudo-scholar's musings. Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly and unequivocally says the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life - it does NOT exist prior to that.

This is an unBiblical doctrine of the Mormon church (and occultism, perhaps, at large) which says men who are exalted to godhood are granted the privilege of having celestial sex with their many goddess wives in order to produce the billions of "souls" that will eventually inhabit the fleshly bodies of babies born on the planet over which they are granted the privilege to divinely rule.

Solomon says in Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 KJV:

[2] Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
[3] Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.

See that? They that "have not been" born are said to have not "seen" the sufferings of this world. If souls already exist before the body is born, not only would they know about this horrible place, but would most certainly be fighting each other for a spot at the back of the line.

Genesis 2:7, KJV: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." It doesn't say what you claim it says.

Some other translations...

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." NIV

"then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." NRSVue

"The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." NET

You are focusing on the single word "soul" in the KJV. Poor exegesis. There is nothing that says that the soul didn't exist prior to this.

The rest of your post is irrational.
 

robert derrick

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I am learning that some doctrines put out by people, are only smokescreen to cover their real disagreement with the Bible.

With the JWs, there are many layers, that they entangle Christians into debate with, but it's all about doing away with torment of immortal wicked souls.

Mortal soul theology is the first layer, and then created christ-gods is just the surface.

They only care about those two, in order to rid themselves of their hatred for everlasting torment of the beast, false prophet, and them with the mark of the beast.

I mean, no decent person likes it, and all sane persons would hate to be there, but that is not reason enough to do such violence to Scripture, and stir up such confusion in Christianity.

Mariology is a near benign desire for unconditional motherly love, compared to the abundance of pseudo-scholarship and enlessly carnal minded debates, that is put into the JW theology.
 

marks

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God is spirit ... a spirit has no form. I believe God created spirit in man and that it was spirit that died when Adam blew it…And it was spirit within us unconditionally that God made available by way of what Jesus Christ accomplished. I believe scripture supports that ….but specifically it does not state that, so take it for what it’s worth.
I think this is correct myself.

Much love!
 

marks

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There is a long list of people who strung this unbiblical belief along until it became firmly entrenched in the religious doctrine…. Nowhere in the writings of man are their beliefs upheld by biblical scripture…
It seems to me that the Scriptures do actually show the soul of unredeemed man continuing past the dissolution of the body, apart from a spirit existance.

Much love!
 

marks

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He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
If there were no hell that souls would be in, this would be a tautology, meaning nothing. Of course He wouldn't be left in hell if no one was!

Much love!
 
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robert derrick

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If there were no hell that souls would be in, this would be a tautology, meaning nothing. Of course He wouldn't be left in hell if no one was!

Much love!
There are always one or two Scriptures that plainly prove the truth, and we either accept them as written to renew our minds in Christ, or we reject them to harden our minds for our own tradition.

It's not by chance that the same ones who say Jesus did not go to hell, apart from His body in the grave, also say the Word was not God, but only a god.