Natural Theology?

[TravisT]

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

Since the word of God states that some of God's Attributes are Clearly seen in Creation is it right for us to practice natural theology? It is some amazing stuff and using Logic we can know with undeniable logic some of God's Amazing Attributes. I believe is shines light on some of the doxology in the bible. But it is not practiced must in my opinion in christian circles.

We are called to love God with our heart and mind. Thoughts?

 

[StanJ]

Well as Darwin hadn't made an appearance yet when Paul wrote these words I'm pretty sure the whole thing about Evolution wasn't an issue back then. For the past hundred years mankind has been taking up the darwinian call more and more. The internet is full of forums that argue Evolution vs. Creationism.
I don't think it's hard at all for Christians to see that but Paul was making a simple point in back they really are without excuse. They will argue till they're blue in the face that God is not evident in nature but as God knows the heart he knows that they lie. The sad thing is more and more in Christian belief we find the pollution of darwinianism infecting the body. Maybe it's a good thing, in that it will weed out all those who don't or won't believe what God's word says?

 

[lforrest]

I agree with remembering natural philosophy. It can be used to build faith. However, natural philosophy is insufficient to understand God entirely, because other religions give their own explanations for natural phenomenon.

 

[StanJ]

Jesus used the so-called laws of nature a great deal in his teaching. Now in my opinion because God created nature these are really just the laws of God that he instilled in his creation. Not all laws of nature have a spiritual application but then again I've never really check them all out. Obviously laws such as sowing and reaping apply to both nature and our lives. Laws about working the Harvest apply both too the natural Harvest and the spiritual Harvest. If one doesn't work either there will be no results. However as lforrest said, we don't discover all of these things solely within nature but if people are honest with themselves they will see that nature is so complex it is impossible to have just appeared on its own and had to have a creator. Of course the proviso is that people have to be honest with themselves. That's not always a thing that sinners do, especially ones that are trying to make others sick and follow their evil ways.

 

[River Jordan]

It's ironic to watch someone argue that we can learn about God by studying His creation, but then demand that the things we learn conform to their personal pre-held beliefs. IOW, it's something like...

Person 1: Hey, we should study God's creation to learn more about God!

Person 2: We've been doing that, and it turns out populations evolve, and have been doing so for a very long time.

Person 1: NOT ALLOWED!!

 

[StanJ]

It's ironic to watch someone argue that we can learn about God by studying His creation, but then demand that the things we learn conform to their personal pre-held beliefs. IOW, it's something like...
Person 1: Hey, we should study God's creation to learn more about God!
Person 2: We've been doing that, and it turns out populations evolve, and have been doing so for a very long time.
Person 1: NOT ALLOWED!!

RJ we all know you've gone over to the dark side. You actually have to know God in order to be able to study Him and the OP said you can't know him apart from his word. His word tells us all we need to know about his creation and as long as we base what we do now on his word and don't make assumptions then we can't go wrong. Making assumptions and then shoehorning them into God's word is not the way God operates and it's not the way a true Christian operates.

 

[TravisT]

Stanj

Good points. We belive God's word and using undeniable logic we can come to know true statements about God from reason. Like from causality we can know he is infinite. We can then go back to the Bible and read passages like psalms 143:3 that God's greatness is unsearchable with new clarity and awe.

 

[mjrhealth]

Didnt Darwin have a change of heart just before his death, because he realised a lot of his theories where wrong, but was not allowed to rewrite his book.??

https://carm.org/secular-movements/evolution/did-darwin-become-christian-his-deathbed

 

[River Jordan]

RJ we all know you've gone over to the dark side.

Why do you have to say crap like that? What do you think that adds to the conversation?

You actually have to know God in order to be able to study Him and the OP said you can't know him apart from his word.

It also says that God's "invisible qualities" are evident in His creation. Therefore it stands to reason that we can learn about these qualities by studying creation.

His word tells us all we need to know about his creation

Really? Where in scripture does it talk about viruses, bacterial infections, and how to treat them?

and as long as we base what we do now on his word and don't make assumptions then we can't go wrong. Making assumptions and then shoehorning them into God's word is not the way God operates and it's not the way a true Christian operates.

Well yeah, and one of those assumptions is "I already know all I need to know about creation and I can't be wrong".

 

[River Jordan]

Didnt Darwin have a change of heart just before his death, because he realised a lot of his theories where wrong, but was not allowed to rewrite his book.??

https://carm.org/secular-movements/evolution/did-darwin-become-christian-his-deathbed

No. Any source that tells you that is either lying or ignorant.

Which arguments should definitely not be used?

“Darwin recanted on his deathbed”. Many people use this story, originally from a Lady Hope. However, it is almost certainly not true, and there is no corroboration from those who were closest to him, even from Darwin’s wife Emma, who never liked evolutionary ideas. Also, even if true, so what? If a prominent creationist recanted Creation, would that disprove it? There is no value to this argument whatever.

Here's another creationist source: https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/darwins-deathbed-conversion-a-legend/

 

[mjrhealth]

It also says that God's "invisible qualities" are evident in His creation. Therefore it stands to reason that we can learn about these qualities by studying creation.

Nothing wrong is studying creation. Would love to know why God created the dinosaurs, fascinates me as does archeology and paeantology.

 

[TravisT]

River Jordan,

You are right about some closed minded people when studying Creation. God's Invisible attributes are stated as being clearly seen from creation. StanJ, I do not think that believing that God can use evolution for his Glory makes someone turn to the dark side.

 

[TravisT]

But again evolution is just a theory.

 

[TravisT]

I'm talking more about God being the umcaused cause of the universe

 

[River Jordan]

You are right about some closed minded people when studying Creation. God's Invisible attributes are stated as being clearly seen from creation.

Glad we agree.

But again evolution is just a theory.

Evolution is both a theory and a fact. It's a fact because we see populations evolve. The theory of evolution provides an explanation for how it happens. It's just like the germ theory of disease. It's a fact that germs cause disease because we see them do it. Germ theory provides an explanation for how that happens.

 

[OzSpen]

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

Since the word of God states that some of God's Attributes are Clearly seen in Creation is it right for us to practice natural theology? It is some amazing stuff and using Logic we can know with undeniable logic some of God's Amazing Attributes. I believe is shines light on some of the doxology in the bible. But it is not practiced must in my opinion in christian circles.

We are called to love God with our heart and mind. Thoughts?

Since I live in a post-Christian, ungodly culture, I find that natural theology (as per Rom 1:18-32; Psalm 19) is an excellent way of building common ground with people who deny the existence of God.

If people had to deal with more people in the non-Christian world in proclaiming the Gospel on a one-to-one basis, they would find the opportunities for using natural theology to be everywhere.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Glad we agree.


Evolution is both a theory and a fact. It's a fact because we see populations evolve. The theory of evolution provides an explanation for how it happens. It's just like the germ theory of disease. It's a fact that germs cause disease because we see them do it. Germ theory provides an explanation for how that happens.

How do we see macro-evolution with populations?

 

[River Jordan]

How do we see macro-evolution with populations?

"Micro-evolution" is evolution below the species level, and includes things like antibiotic resistance in bacteria. We see that.

"Macro-evolution" is evolution above the species level, and includes things like the evolution of new species. We see that too.

And since both are just evolution at different scales, evolution is indeed a fact.

 

[OzSpen]

RJ we all know you've gone over to the dark side. You actually have to know God in order to be able to study Him and the OP said you can't know him apart from his word. His word tells us all we need to know about his creation and as long as we base what we do now on his word and don't make assumptions then we can't go wrong. Making assumptions and then shoehorning them into God's word is not the way God operates and it's not the way a true Christian operates.

Stan,

Actually, we don't need to know God personally to be able to study Him. We know that because God has told us so in Romans 1:20 (ESV), which states:

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Who are 'they'? Those who perform ungodly and unrighteous acts and suppress the truth (Rom 1:16 ESV).

So, in natural revelation ('the things that have been made') God's eternal power and divine nature can be known to such an extent that unbelievers 'are without excuse'. This revelation in nature does not bring salvation, but it does bring knowledge of the existence of God's power and divine nature.

In fact, Rom 1:20 says that these 'have been clearly perceived' since the beginning of time - the beginning of creation.

So, wicked, sinful, reprobate human beings can know the knowledge of God's eternal power and divine nature through creation. This was one of the influences in John Blanchard's book, Does God Believe in Atheists? (EP Books 2011).

Therefore, God can say all nonbelievers are 'without excuse' because they know of God's existence. What have they done with that knowledge?

Oz

 

[StanJ]

Didnt Darwin have a change of heart just before his death, because he realised a lot of his theories where wrong, but was not allowed to rewrite his book.??

https://carm.org/secular-movements/evolution/did-darwin-become-christian-his-deathbed

His children were with him on that night, and as they were at his deathbed I would have to defer to their perspective.