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Featured NDEs and ADCs: Their Apologetic Value for Christian Witness

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Berserk, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) replicate by their seemingly "physical confirmations" and other verifications the evidence that persuaded the disciples that Jesus is alive. In my experience of witnessing, NDEs and ADCs can be more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why, I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published.

    But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
    (1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).

    (2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)."
    Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs.

    (3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
    In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

    (4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14).

    (5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:
    e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)."

    My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them.


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  2. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    (1) NDE researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody are now writing books about shared NDEs, which are generally far more evidential than most conventional NDEs because the doctors, nurses, and family members witnessing the apparent deaths actually experience key elements of the NDEs, including the OBE, the dying person's past life review, and the encounter with the Being of Light!

    (1a) Watch this brief interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIRE

    Elsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

    (1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Dr. Scott Taylor's testimony:

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRE

    Such shared NDEs refute the claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation in a dying brain.
     
  3. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    Roger B. recently retired from his top executive position is the federal HUD department. He is an agnostic, but developed an openness to the claims of Christ through the NDEs and ADCs that I am describing in this thread. He even invited me to his vacation home in Fort Erie, Ontario. A fellow employee referred Roger to a book "Lighted Passage," written by his relative, a Presbyterian minister named Howell Vincent. The book is primarily about Vincent's daughter Rea, who was killed in a car accident on her honeymoon. The ADC cited below was a source of great comfort to the family:

    (2) "On at least 2 occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea in visible tangible form and talked with her...I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time 3 other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked around the room with Nellie."

    From an evidential perspective this testimony rivals the Gospel resurrection stories and, for that very reason, lends them added credibility. Rev. Vincent's testimony certainly opened my agnostic HUD executive friend's heart to the Gospel and the possibility that Jesus really did rise from the dead. This ADC is similar to Jesus' resurrection appearances--e. g. Nellie's interaction with several family members, the experience of her blessing touch, and her provision of a supernaturally created keepsake.
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    The problem is, sight faith is not Holy Spirit saving faith. Believing with the flesh will not suffice.
     
  5. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    You are apparently oblivious of the need for the work of preevangelism. Evidential testimonies can open hearts to the possibility that the claims of Christ are worth considering and can thus lead to salvation. That was true for my agnostic friend Roger.
     
  6. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    (3) Rev.Albert Baldeo was one of the most respected ministers in Kelowna, BC in Canada. He was respected enough to be given a weekly column in the city paper. One of his articles described his Dad's shared NDE and I confirmed the ensuing description of it by direct contact with Albert: Albert also wrote an article about this shared NDE in the Kelowna newspaper.

    Albert was present at his Dad's death vigil in a nursing home. At 11:45 AM, his Dad sat up, looked ahead at an apparition, and exclaimed, "Hurry up, brother, hurry up!" Within a few seconds he passed away. Only later did Albert discover that his Dad's brother was simultaneously dying in another nursing home 10 miles away. That death vigil was also witnessed by family members. As death drew near, that brother suddenly sat up, gazed in the distance, and exclaimed, "Wait for me, brother, wait for me!" Seconds later, he died, and the family members present noted the time--11:45 AM! Two brothers were able to react to each other 10 physical miles apart and then their spirits were able to enter eternity simultaneously. Mind-blowing unique evidence for the reality of the soul!
     
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Have you ever had any involvement with a mental health professional? I find it unsettling that you call yourself "Berserk" and claim to see dead people.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2019
  8. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Jesus physically appeared to the disciples over a period of 40 days and he demonstrated to them that he was not a ghost/spirit. He also riminded them that he had told them that he would die and rise from the dead.
    There are no accounts that match Jesus prediction of his death, the death and resurrection among those who bewlieve in nde+adc.
    What really says that these things are useless for evangelism is Jesus's account of the rich man and the begger. When the rich man asked for the begger to warn his brothers he was told. 'If they will not believe the bible. They will not believe if someone rises from the dead.'

    Why does anyone need a nde or adc, when they have the account of Jesus's resurrection?
     
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  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Biblically speaking one is not dead until the spirit leaves the body.

    So there is no difference between NDE and ADC. They are both NDE.
     
  10. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    Where does Berserk claim to see dead people? None of the ADE posted thus far are his own.
     
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  11. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    He seems to think it is reality.........
     
  12. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    lforrest: "Where does Berserk claim to see dead people? None of the ADE posted thus far are his own.[/QUOTE]

    Dave resorts to insulting lying fabrications when his fallacious reasoning is exposed and he has no other answers.

    windmillcharge: "Jesus physically appeared to the disciples over a period of 40 days and he demonstrated to them that he was not a ghost/spirit. He also reminded them that he had told them that he would die and rise from the dead.
    There are no accounts that match Jesus prediction of his death, the death and resurrection among those who believe in nde+adc.

    On the contrary, some NDEs and ADCs are even more "physical" than the evidence of Jesus' resurrection appearances. Stay tuned for the evidence for this claim. Above all, you need to recognize that Jesus' resurrection body was not as obviously physical as most Christians make it out to be. Mary Magdalene is unable to recognize the Risen Jesus until He addresses her by name (John 20:14-15). More shockingly, the 2 disciples couldn't even recognize their travel companion as Jesus during their long walk with Him to Emmaus (Luke 24:15)! After Jesus appears on the Galilean mountain, "some" disciples doubt that it's Jesus, despite all the prior Jerusalem appearances! Even Jesus' breakfast appearance by the shore initially seems somewhat unconvincing to some disciples, despite HIs prior appearances: "None of the disciples dared ask Him: "Who are you? (John 21:12).""

    windmillcharge: "Why does anyone need a nde or adc, when they have the account of Jesus's resurrection?"

    (1) Just try to put the Gospel narratives after the discovery of the empty tomb into a coherent and logical sequence. Are you even aware of all the contradictions alleged for resurrection stories? According to modern NT scholarship, none of the Gospel resurrection stories can be traced to eyewitness testimony. Now as an evangelical, I work hard to refute these claims. I will discuss this complex problem in a separate thread, if asked to do so.

    (2) But the fact that these claims are routinely made in college New Testament courses creates a need for knowledge of the evidence for postmortem survival provided by the NDE/ ADC verifications. Indeed, I have seen firsthand how these modern paranormal experiences open skeptical minds in a way that Gospel resurrection stories cannot!
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Dave resorts to insulting lying fabrications when his fallacious reasoning is exposed and he has no other answers.

    windmillcharge: "Jesus physically appeared to the disciples over a period of 40 days and he demonstrated to them that he was not a ghost/spirit. He also reminded them that he had told them that he would die and rise from the dead.
    There are no accounts that match Jesus prediction of his death, the death and resurrection among those who believe in nde+adc.

    On the contrary, some NDEs and ADCs are even more "physical" than the evidence of Jesus' resurrection appearances. Stay tuned for the evidence for this claim. Above all, you need to recognize that Jesus' resurrection body was not as obviously physical as most Christians make it out to be. Mary Magdalene is unable to recognize the Risen Jesus until He addresses her by name (John 20:14-15). More shockingly, the 2 disciples couldn't even recognize their travel companion as Jesus during their long walk with Him to Emmaus (Luke 24:15)! After Jesus appears on the Galilean mountain, "some" disciples doubt that it's Jesus, despite all the prior Jerusalem appearances! Even Jesus' breakfast appearance by the shore initially seems somewhat unconvincing to some disciples, despite HIs prior appearances: "None of the disciples dared ask Him: "Who are you? (John 21:12).""

    windmillcharge: "Why does anyone need a nde or adc, when they have the account of Jesus's resurrection?"

    (1) Just try to put the Gospel narratives after the discovery of the empty tomb into a coherent and logical sequence. Are you even aware of all the contradictions alleged for resurrection stories? According to modern NT scholarship, none of the Gospel resurrection stories can be traced to eyewitness testimony. Now as an evangelical, I work hard to refute these claims. I will discuss this complex problem in a separate thread, if asked to do so.

    (2) But the fact that these claims are routinely made in college New Testament courses creates a need for knowledge of the evidence for postmortem survival provided by the NDE/ ADC verifications. Indeed, I have seen firsthand how these modern paranormal experiences open skeptical minds in a way that Gospel resurrection stories cannot![/QUOTE]
    If you think people see dead people, how do you know it's not schizophrenia or any other mental illness? You claimed to see Jesus, what did he look like? Are you aware scripture does not support your claims?
     
  14. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    Jesus' resurrected apperances were a special case. As were appearances of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. I don't see how they support claims of ADEs, though the other biblical accounts do support it.

    I have some theories for ADEs.
    First that some appearance are sanctioned by God and are permitted to ease someone's passing.

    Hauntings carry the hallmark of the demonic. Perhaps when someone dies who is afflicted by demons, those demons remain behind in a blended form.
     
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  15. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Jesus' resurrected apperances were a special case. As were appearances of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration. I don't see how they support claims of ADEs, though the other biblical accounts do support it.

    I have some theories for ADEs.
    First that some appearance that are sanctioned by God and are permitted to ease someone's passing.

    Hauntings carry the hallmark of the demonic. Perhaps when someone dies who is afflicted by demons, those demons remain behind in a blended form.[/QUOTE]
    You mention seeing Jesus. What did he look like?
     
  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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  17. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    You mention seeing Jesus. What did he look like?[/QUOTE]

    The disciples saw Jesus after his resurrection. They didn't doubt his identity, but rather Thomas doubted if he was a ghost or physically there. He was physically there, proving to Thomas that he had risen from the dead.
     
  18. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    The disciples saw Jesus after his resurrection. They didn't doubt his identity, but rather Thomas doubted if he was a ghost or physically there. He was physically there, proving to Thomas that he had risen from the dead.[/QUOTE]

    And that his body was glorified.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    The disciples saw Jesus after his resurrection. They didn't doubt his identity, but rather Thomas doubted if he was a ghost or physically there. He was physically there, proving to Thomas that he had risen from the dead.[/QUOTE]
    “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2) = we don't know.
     
  20. Berserk

    Berserk Active Member

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    AN ADC AS PHYSICAL AS ANY OF JESUS' RESURRECTION APPEARANCES

    (4a) :Leonard was a wealthy elderly businessman who was a beloved member of a church I pastored in western New York. On a few occasions I had dinner with him and his wife Helen. He was very anxious that I visit his brother, his wife, and his cousin when they had health issues. But one day it dawned on me that he seemed to have little or no grief about the premature deaths of his son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children in a small plane crash. One day Leonard asked me to visit him to discuss a possible visit to his dying cousin who lived across the road who had refused any visitation. Leonard wasn't home, but I found myself remarking to Helen at how easily Leonard seemed to adjust to the tragic deaths of his young son's family. Helen replied cryptically, "Oh, that's because Jeff visited him, but Leonard doesn't like to talk about that!" Curious, I took the risk to make the same observation to Leonard the next time I saw him. His responded with the most dramatically supernatural encounter I've ever encountered.

    Leonard told me that after the funeral he was about to drive Jeff's pickup truck to town on an errand. As he approached the end of his driveway, he noticed a figure looming from the ditch by the highway. It was his late son Jeff! Jeff approached the pickup, saying, "Hi Dad, do you mind if I drive my pickup for old time's sake?" A stunned Leonard slid over and Jeff got in and drove his pickup north towards Rochester, NY on Rte. 37. Jeff assured his Dad and he and his family were together and OK and then revealed the details of his financial investments to help Leonard settle his estate. After driving a few miles, Jeff abruptly turned right on a less traveled highway and drove a couple of miles until they approached a thicket of woods. Jeff then solemnly remarked: "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to drive any further." Jeff then got out of the pickup, walked towards the woods, and dematerialized! A stunned Leonard then drove the pickup home.

    Leonard told me that Jeff's paranormal visit did little to ease his grief because he was in shock and the whole adventure seemed too surreal to be real. But everything changed the next morning. Leonard awakened with a heavy heart and went for a walk in the woods behind his house to ease his grief. He was soon overcome by a weeping spell and sat down on a log. Then he heard a branch crack and saw a young woman approaching. It was Jeff's late wife Karen! She chided him, "Dad, didn't we tell you that we are all together and OK? So what are you doing grieving like this? You get back in the house and comfort Mom (Helen)!" It was Karen's comforting visit that dispatched most of Leonard's grief.

    After sharing this amazing account, Leonard gazed at my incredulous expression with great concern and I felt ashamed because he hadn't wanted to share this experience and I had goaded him into sharing it. I apologized, adding that I was grateful that he shared his ADC and I just needed time to process what I'd heard.

    I asked him if he had shared this experience with his 2 daughters and he said No. He didn't want his family to think he was crazy. I left to pastor another church a year later and eventually heard that Leonard had passed away, but that his daughter had shared his ADC at his funeral service. Apparently, my sympathetic listening had encouraged him to share his ADC with his daughters.

    I'm impressed by the twin confirmations that Leonard's grief was gloriously terminated by this most miraculous ADC and by the unknown information received during the ADC about his son Jeff's investments. I have found that this testimony in particular has opened the minds of intelligent skeptics to the Gospel in a way that no standard presentation of the Gospel could. in so doing, it lends added credibility to Gospel resurrection narratives.

    (3b) Not all ADCs feature souls secure in Heaven. You will remember the bald actor, Telly Savalas, who starred in the Kojak TV series. Telly shares an ADC analogous to Leonard's in an interview:

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D861&FORM=VIRE

    I suspect that the discarnate driver is trapped in Hades.
     
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