New But Not Improved

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Netchaplain

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I say “not improved” because the new man does not need improved, being the nature after Christ (Col 3:10); and the old man cannot be improved, because it cannot be “subject” to the will of God (Rom 8:7)! I am the new man, not the old, for we “are not in the flesh” (old man or sin nature - Ro 8:9), though it yet “dwells within me.” Paul realized that he was not part of the old man when he said he did not do the wrongs, but the sin (old man) did the wrongs (Ro 7:17, 20 ); and we ourselves, in our new man are not in connection with our old man!

God has placed enmity between the believer and the old man (and between anything opposing God), so that it can be said that it’s not the believer, in his new man sinning, but in the old man; and we are not our old man. This is not to deny we sin but that we are not accountable for the old man; because it is not us, the new man that only desires to please God (1Jo 3:9).

God knows our will is only to please Him, for He “works” this in all who are reborn (Phl 2:13). This answers to why the separation, or sanctification from the old man (flesh). He does not want us to have any part with it, other than when we are tested by its temptings. When we see ourselves sin, we know it is not us in the new man but in the old, and we continue to learn God’s will because of it.

The new man does not sin, and it is never intentional or willful when we do sin. This is the intension of Paul’s use of the word “captive” (Ro 7:23). He still sins against his will, and protests that it is not him doing the sin. He has to be brought “into captivity to the law of sin” which is in him.

Paul knew he still sinned, but he also learned that he is “delivered” from the sin (Rom 7:24), and was thankful to God (v 25). He said he served the will of God “with the mind,” which is the intension of his new man; and when he said it was “myself” (v 25), he was referring also to his new self. He admitted still serving “the law of sin,” but he now knew it was not with himself in the new man that did it, but with the “flesh” (old man or sin nature).

I believe this answers to that “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God” (1Jn 3:9). When you are reborn God “works in you” not to desire to sin—which is the goal. The “seed” is the new nature, that “cannot sin,” which are those reborn and have a new nature from Christ (some think the “new man” is Christ, but this cannot be because it was “created” - Eph 4:24).

When we sin, though it is with the old man, we still confess (admit) we sinned and repent; and thank God for His unbroken and “faithful” forgiveness (1Jn 1:9)!
 

1stCenturyLady

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I say “not improved” because the new man does not need improved, being the nature after Christ (Col 3:10); and the old man cannot be improved, because it cannot be “subject” to the will of God (Rom 8:7)! I am the new man, not the old, for we “are not in the flesh” (old man or sin nature - Ro 8:9), though it yet “dwells within me.” Paul realized that he was not part of the old man when he said he did not do the wrongs, but the sin (old man) did the wrongs (Ro 7:17, 20 ); and we ourselves, in our new man are not in connection with our old man!

Sorry, but you are misinterpreting Romans 7:17 and 20 and taking them completely out of context. Everything from 14-25 is Paul speaking of those who are only under the law, before Christ. They still have sin in them, don't they? Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him is no sin. 1 John 3:5.

Go further to Romans 8:2 and you will see how he says he was FREED from the law of sin and death. IOW Paul was FREED from Romans 7:14-25!

Those who are actually born again, and not just psuedo-Christians, do not have two natures; they only have the born again nature like Christ. A psuedo-Christian only has their old man sin nature, and why they believe we must have two natures and are saved. Nope. They never knew Christ, just about Him. Matthew 7:21-23

chaplain, read Romans 7:5-13. You will see in verse 5 that Paul is recalling what it was like before Christ and the Spirit. "5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
 

Netchaplain

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Sorry, but you are misinterpreting Romans 7:17 and 20 and taking them completely out of context. Everything from 14-25 is Paul speaking of those who are only under the law, before Christ. They still have sin in them, don't they? Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him is no sin. 1 John 3:5.
Hi and thanks for the reply. It's my understanding that Paul is a Christian in Ro 7:14-25, and some think he is still a non Christian, but what he presented is only what a Christian would say.
 
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amigo de christo

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Sorry, but you are misinterpreting Romans 7:17 and 20 and taking them completely out of context. Everything from 14-25 is Paul speaking of those who are only under the law, before Christ. They still have sin in them, don't they? Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in Him is no sin. 1 John 3:5.

Go further to Romans 8:2 and you will see how he says he was FREED from the law of sin and death. IOW Paul was FREED from Romans 7:14-25!

Those who are actually born again, and not just psuedo-Christians, do not have two natures; they only have the born again nature like Christ. A psuedo-Christian only has their old man sin nature, and why they believe we must have two natures and are saved. Nope. They never knew Christ, just about Him. Matthew 7:21-23

chaplain, read Romans 7:5-13. You will see in verse 5 that Paul is recalling what it was like before Christ and the Spirit. "5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
I think some folks are fast forgetting something . THIS . WHO WE OBEY IS WHOSE WE ARE .
they so busy looking for an excuse to sin instead of looking unto HE who can succor us through any temptation .
How come paul said LET IT NOT once be named , and many today just say , GIVE UP we cant stop .
SOMEONE knew the POWER OF CHRIST , whereas today , ME THINKS MANY DO NOT .
 
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1stCenturyLady

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I think some folks are fast forgetting something . THIS . WHO WE OBEY IS WHOSE WE ARE .
they so busy looking for an excuse to sin instead of looking unto HE who can succor us through any temptation .
How come paul said LET IT NOT once be named , and many today just say , GIVE UP we cant stop .
SOMEONE knew the POWER OF CHRIST , whereas today , ME THINKS MANY DO NOT .

That is why I am on these forums for years. I AM AFRAID FOR THE CHURCH. IT APPEARS WE ARE IN THE "FALLING AWAY."
 

1stCenturyLady

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Hi and thanks for the reply. It's my understanding that Paul is a Christian in Ro 7:14-25, and some think he is still a non Christian, but what he presented is only what a Christian would say.

What? Do you really entertain the thought that when Paul wrote Romans he was not a Christian? You are a chaplain. You have more responsibility than most to read in context. Jesus frees us from sin. Do you believe that or not? The person in Romans 7:14-25 is NOT free from sin until he receives the Spirit in the next chapter. But Romans 7:5 depicts a Christian, but to show that the LAW was holy, and that it was WE who made it of non-effect, Paul writes of what it was like under the law for the past 1500 years, until Christ came and took away our sin.

Now go back and study. James 3:1
 

Netchaplain

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What? Do you really entertain the thought that when Paul wrote Romans he was not a Christian? You are a chaplain. You have more responsibility than most to read in context. Jesus frees us from sin. Do you believe that or not? The person in Romans 7:14-25 is NOT free from sin until he receives the Spirit in the next chapter. But Romans 7:5 depicts a Christian, but to show that the LAW was holy, and that it was WE who made it of non-effect, Paul writes of what it was like under the law for the past 1500 years, until Christ came and took away our sin.

Now go back and study. James 3:1
v 17 and 20--"no more I that do the wrong" is Paul in his new nature, as he points out he still has the old nature. No Pharisee would ever say "I delight in the law of God," for the law was a bloody and burdensome thing.

"He divides himself as it were into two parts, the mind, by which he means his inward man, his renewed self; and "the flesh," by which he designs his carnal I, that was sold under sin: and hereby he accounts for his serving, at different times, two different laws; "the law of God," written on his mind, and in the service of which he delighted as a regenerate man; "and the law of sin," to which he was sometimes carried captive" -John Gill

Paul merely points out that while he is reborn, he still sins (v 25).

Looks like we just differ in our understanding on this issue.
 

1stCenturyLady

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v 17 and 20--"no more I that do the wrong" is Paul in his new nature, as he points out he still has the old nature. No Pharisee would ever say "I delight in the law of God," for the law was a bloody and burdensome thing.

"He divides himself as it were into two parts, the mind, by which he means his inward man, his renewed self; and "the flesh," by which he designs his carnal I, that was sold under sin: and hereby he accounts for his serving, at different times, two different laws; "the law of God," written on his mind, and in the service of which he delighted as a regenerate man; "and the law of sin," to which he was sometimes carried captive" -John Gill

Paul merely points out that while he is reborn, he still sins (v 25).

Looks like we just differ in our understanding on this issue.

It says that the law is holy.
It is all there in the context. Just empty your mind of all previous doctrines of man. Read it a few times. Romans 7:5 to Romans 8:9. Don't forget that Romans 8 frees us from Romans 7:14-25. Verse 25 is still a Jew who knows the law in his mind, but couldn't experience the rebirth of Christ's Spirit, so is still in the flesh. Romans 8:9 says we are NOT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SPIRIT...

John Gill didn't understand. Hope you do better. Remember, CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!
 

1stCenturyLady

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You misunderstood me somewhere. I said He was Christian when he wrote Ro 7.
Oh, okay. Yes he was. But he was writing about when we were in the flesh (verse 5) (in the past) and only had the Law to go by.
We are no longer under the law, because we have the Spirit and NOT in the flesh, Romans 8:2 and 9.

In Romans 7:14-25 Paul is emphasizing that the Law is holy, but for sinners that still had sin in them. He wasn't saying "the Law is a bloody and burdensome thing." We are no longer sinners!

Our new born-again is New AND IMPROVED. It is free from known sin AND full of the Holy Spirit and His power.
 
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Netchaplain

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In Romans 7:14-25 Paul is emphasizing that the Law is holy, but for sinners that still had sin in them. He wasn't saying "the Law is a bloody and burdensome thing." We are no longer sinners!

Our new born-again is New AND IMPROVED. It is free from known sin AND full of the Holy Spirit and His power.
The way they had to sacrifice often was very bloody. The reason I say "not improved" is because the new nature cannot be improved, but you could say we improve. We are already everything Christ is (except the deity of course), without doing anything; but we just mature more all the time in Him in our walk for the Father (Eph 4:15).
 

1stCenturyLady

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The way they had to sacrifice often was very bloody. The reason I say "not improved" is because the new nature cannot be improved, but you could say we improve. We are already everything Christ is (except the deity of course), without doing anything; but we just mature more all the time in Him in our walk for the Father (Eph 4:15).
I will disagree that we cannot be improved, because though Jesus makes us sinless at each new level of obedience, there are future levels to come towards perfection in the end when the Spirit is Finished during our lifetime.

Do you recognize these levels of obedience, and sinlessness? It was revealed to me by the Spirit just recently, but I have not heard anyone else teach this, though it is right there in scripture.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16-17

First it is the gospel. And the levels of obedience where the Spirit writes His laws on our conscience as they are presented thereon in increments.

Phil. 3:16 shows that as we live up to each level of obedience, from the first level commandments given to a baby Christian, to the last levels of obedience that someone like me is at after 4 decades of levels, and Paul finally reached in his last letter before death. "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7.

Paul had also said, not only from faith to faith, but from glory to glory. Those are all levels of obedience that the Author and Finisher of our faith completes in us. All we have to do is obey our own conscience, which for me, going against my conscience has always been hard, so the gospel is easy, and His burden is light. I just have always lived my life with a clear conscience, as Paul has also said. That is so different than those with a sin nature had to memorize 613 laws that were against their nature. The new nature has those laws written on our nature, to keep easily.

Understand?
 
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Netchaplain

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I will disagree that we cannot be improved, because though Jesus makes us sinless at each new level of obedience,
I wish we could be sinless, but the indwelling old man (Ro 7:17, 20) means we are still sinful. The taking away of our sins just means we are forgiven, not guilty; and the sin nature will "not have dominion over us" (Ro 6:14), because we "are not in the flesh" or old man, though it is in us.
 

marks

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Oh, okay. Yes he was. But he was writing about when we were in the flesh (verse 5) (in the past) and only had the Law to go by.
We are no longer under the law, because we have the Spirit and NOT in the flesh, Romans 8:2 and 9.
Not so . . . he wrote . . . "it is now no more I but sin that lives in me". In this simple phrase this doctrine is confirmed. Or else you simply have to ignore the way Paul wrote.

I'll go as detailed as you like in exploring this.

Much love!
 

1stCenturyLady

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I wish we could be sinless, but the indwelling old man (Ro 7:17, 20) means we are still sinful. The taking away of our sins just means we are forgiven, not guilty; and the sin nature will "not have dominion over us" (Ro 6:14), because we "are not in the flesh" or old man, though it is in us.
We are going around in circles. The old man is dead! We are new creations! Galatians 6:15

Romans 6-7
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

You are quoting Romans 7:17-20 again but not understanding it is ABOUT those UNDER the law. We are NOT under the law IF we are filled with the Spirit. Romans 8:9
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Not so . . . he wrote . . . "it is now no more I but sin that lives in me". In this simple phrase this doctrine is confirmed. Or else you simply have to ignore the way Paul wrote.

I'll go as detailed as you like in exploring this.

Much love!

It is confusing because Paul is writing in first person, just as John wrote in first person in 1 John 1. But that is a writing style. You must read in CONTEXT.

Romans 8:2 shows that Paul is FREED from Romans 7:14-25. How do you explain that? Netchaplian, you too - how do you explain that the Spirit frees us from the sin that was in us when we were in the flesh (Romans 7:5)
 
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marks

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It is confusing because Paul is writing in first person, just as John wrote in first person in 1 John 1. But that is a writing style. You must read in CONTEXT.

Romans 8:2 shows that Paul is FREED from Romans 7:14-25. How do you explain that? Netchaplian, you too - how do you explain that the Spirit frees us from the sin that was in us when we were in the flesh (Romans 7:5)
What I say, is, you must first start with the words written, what they mean, and what they mean in their immediate context. As you broaden the context, that won't change.

Until we can agree on what the words say, we won't get anywhere. And I don't find it confusing - not anymore - you only need to accept exactly what he is saying here, and you'll find it in harmony with the rest of Scripture.

Much love!
 

1stCenturyLady

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What I say, is, you must first start with the words written, what they mean, and what they mean in their immediate context. As you broaden the context, that won't change.

Until we can agree on what the words say, we won't get anywhere.

Much love!
The words written are still valid for someone under the law. Who is under the Law? Why was it given to us? It was given to us when we were still sinners. And it is still for unsaved sinners. And the Law is still holy.

Personally, I am free from the law, and I don't relate to Romans 7:14-25, because I am one of those who can look at that and remember way back when I was a sinner. I couldn't change on my own. I had to be born again of the Spirit to stop sinning.

marks, the problem with most Christians, is they are 'relating' to Romans 7:14-25 as being in their 'present' state, and quote the heresy of "see Christians will always be sinners."
 

marks

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The words written are still valid for someone under the law. Who is under the Law? Why was it given to us? It was given to us when we were still sinners. And it is still for unsaved sinners. And the Law is still holy.
Not so, because that person has no new "inner man" that is not under the Law of Sin and Death.

Much love!
 

marks

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marks, the problem with most Christians, is they are 'relating' to Romans 7:14-25 as being in their 'present' state, and quote the heresy of "see Christians will always be sinners."
I see this opposite to what you see. To me this is the true justification and liberation of the saint.

Much love!