No Converts During The Tribulation

[Davy]

One of the ideas from men's doctrines about the tribulation time is that some will convert to Jesus during it. This is a favorite ploy by the Pre-trib Rapture school, because they fool their followers into thinking there will be so-called 'tribulation saints' that Jesus gathers on the day of His 2nd coming. Everyone else in Christ will have been gathered prior to the tribulation. There is NO SCRIPTURE to support such ideas. They are ideas made up by men.

Instead, God's Word shows that each person will either be 'sealed' in Christ with the faithfulness to go through the tribulation and remain in Christ, or they will be deceived to the Antichrist/false-Messiah.

Revelation 7 with those 'sealed' with God's Seal prior to the loosing of the four winds is one proof of only Christ's elect being prepared against deception during the trib. The 144,000 represents a remnant from the tribes of Israel that are sealed with God's seal. The "great multitude" represents those sealed of the Gentiles in Christ that go through the tribulation.

Revelation 9 shows us that only those NOT SEALED with God's Seal will be subject to the locust's stinging for five months. That stinging represents deception.

Thusly, if one is NOT SEALED with God's Seal for the trib, it means being deceived, and falling away to worship the Antichrist, and or taking his mark.

By the time the "great tribulation" begins, everyone will be on one side or the other of a dividing line, sealed by God, or subject to deception.

This is why our Lord Jesus warned us in His Olivet discourse to not allow any man to deceive us. Apostle Paul warned us also in 2 Thessalonians 2 to not let any man deceive us.

 

[Timtofly]

One of the ideas from men's doctrines about the tribulation time is that some will convert to Jesus during it. This is a favorite ploy by the Pre-trib Rapture school, because they fool their followers into thinking there will be so-called 'tribulation saints' that Jesus gathers on the day of His 2nd coming. Everyone else in Christ will have been gathered prior to the tribulation. There is NO SCRIPTURE to support such ideas. They are ideas made up by men.

Instead, God's Word shows that each person will either be 'sealed' in Christ with the faithfulness to go through the tribulation and remain in Christ, or they will be deceived to the Antichrist/false-Messiah.

Revelation 7 with those 'sealed' with God's Seal prior to the loosing of the four winds is one proof of only Christ's elect being prepared against deception during the trib. The 144,000 represents a remnant from the tribes of Israel that are sealed with God's seal. The "great multitude" represents those sealed of the Gentiles in Christ that go through the tribulation.

Revelation 9 shows us that only those NOT SEALED with God's Seal will be subject to the locust's stinging for five months. That stinging represents deception.

Thusly, if one is NOT SEALED with God's Seal for the trib, it means being deceived, and falling away to worship the Antichrist, and or taking his mark.

By the time the "great tribulation" begins, everyone will be on one side or the other of a dividing line, sealed by God, or subject to deception.

This is why our Lord Jesus warned us in His Olivet discourse to not allow any man to deceive us. Apostle Paul warned us also in 2 Thessalonians 2 to not let any man deceive us.

Are those beheaded sealed before or after they loose their head? If before, how will those sealed know they are sealed, so they can get their head cut off? How long should they wait before getting their head cut off?

 

[Davy]

Are those beheaded sealed before or after they loose their head? If before, how will those sealed know they are sealed, so they can get their head cut off? How long should they wait before getting their head cut off?

You obviously didn't take time to understand the Revelation 9 Scripture about God's Seal...

Rev 9:4-6
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV


Did you catch that? I put it in big bold red underlined letters so you can't miss it.

To understand that Scripture, one has to actually use some of the brain capacity God gave us.

1. the locusts can hurt ONLY those NOT SEALED WITH GOD'S SEAL.
2. and the locust CANNOT KILL THEM, but only STING THEM FOR 5 MONTHS.

This means what for those in Christ WHO ARE SEALED WITH GOD'S SEAL?

It means some of Christ's SAINTS are beheaded DURING THE TRIBULATION. Not all the saints. And Jesus warned His faithful saints about this, and said to be faithful unto death (Revelation 2; Matthew 10; Matthew 24; Mark 8:35; Mark 13:9-13; Luke 21:16; 5th Seal of Revelation 6; Revelation 12:11-12 about those who overcome the devil when he is cast down to earth for the end). THIS IS ABOUT THOSE IN CHRIST WHO ARE SEALED WITH GOD'S SEAL... BEFORE.... THE TRIBULATION BEGINS. God's Sealing is in PREP FOR GOING THROUGH THE TRIBULATION, not in prep to be raptured beforehand!

 

[Enoch111]

One of the ideas from men's doctrines about the tribulation time is that some will convert to Jesus during it.

Do you seriously believe that Moses and Elijah preaching the Gospel on earth at exactly that time will accomplish absolutely nothing? There's no need to post nonsense when you have no clue.

But the fact that they will spend 3 1/2 intense years witnessing to Christ on earth means that many Jews will be converted, but also martyred subsequently.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Revelation 9 shows us that only those NOT SEALED with God's Seal will be subject to the locust's stinging for five months. That stinging represents deception.

Stings as those of scorpions…not to mention He restores that which the locust consumes and has eaten up. How then do you make it “that stinging represents deception” (not disagreeing) as in delusions something yet futuristic? When Paul said at his departure they would come in to deceive?
Ezekiel 2:5-10 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. [6] And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. [7] And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. [8] But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee. [9] And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; [10] And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Futuristic yea?? What of 2 Peter 2:10-18 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. [11] Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. [12] But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; [13] And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; [14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: [15] Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [16] But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. [17] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. [18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

 

[Timtofly]

You obviously didn't take time to understand the Revelation 9 Scripture about God's Seal...

Rev 9:4-6
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV


Did you catch that? I put it in big bold red underlined letters so you can't miss it.

To understand that Scripture, one has to actually use some of the brain capacity God gave us.

1. the locusts can hurt ONLY those NOT SEALED WITH GOD'S SEAL.
2. and the locust CANNOT KILL THEM, but only STING THEM FOR 5 MONTHS.

This means what for those in Christ WHO ARE SEALED WITH GOD'S SEAL?

It means some of Christ's SAINTS are beheaded DURING THE TRIBULATION. Not all the saints. And Jesus warned His faithful saints about this, and said to be faithful unto death (Revelation 2; Matthew 10; Matthew 24; Mark 8:35; Mark 13:9-13; Luke 21:16; 5th Seal of Revelation 6; Revelation 12:11-12 about those who overcome the devil when he is cast down to earth for the end). THIS IS ABOUT THOSE IN CHRIST WHO ARE SEALED WITH GOD'S SEAL... BEFORE.... THE TRIBULATION BEGINS. God's Sealing is in PREP FOR GOING THROUGH THE TRIBULATION, not in prep to be raptured beforehand!

It simply means these sealed are not part of the glorified church body. They are the firstfruits of the Millennium. They are never beheaded. They are on mount Zion during Satan's 42 months. Yes there are still some on earth who will always stay on the earth, even if beheaded.

 

[Davy]

Do you seriously believe that Moses and Elijah preaching the Gospel on earth at exactly that time will accomplish absolutely nothing? There's no need to post nonsense when you have no clue.

But the fact that they will spend 3 1/2 intense years witnessing to Christ on earth means that many Jews will be converted, but also martyred subsequently.

That idea is just made up by the Pre-trib Rapture doctors.

Lord Jesus and His Apostles were warning His Church about the tribulation at the end by a false one, and that from the time of His 1st coming all the way down to the end of this world.

The Pre-trib doctors made up the idea of 'tribulation saints' apart from the idea of the Church. It was to give their rapture prior to the tribulation more weight, because Biblically no such idea is written.

Apostle Paul specifically was warning the Church in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the false one must first come playing God in Jerusalem prior to any gathering of the Church to Christ.

 

[Davy]

Stings as those of scorpions…not to mention He restores that which the locust consumes and has eaten up. How then do you make it “that stinging represents deception” (not disagreeing) as in delusions something yet futuristic? When Paul said at his departure they would come in to deceive?
Ezekiel 2:5-10 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. [6] And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. [7] And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. [8] But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee. [9] And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; [10] And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

Just these Scriptures alone should be plenty for you to figure out what the real danger for the coming tribulation is going to be about. It's a little late in the day, as the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem already have the building materials for their next temple, and they have made many of the temple artifacts, with some of them on display in Jerusalem.

Rev 12:15
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

What comes out of one's mouth? Words. Simple as that. And in the case of words out of the dragon's mouth? (Lord Jesus uses "serpent" and "dragon" interchangeably there in Rev.12 for Satan). In Rev.9, where are we told the locust's power is? In their 'mouths'. What comes out of one's mouth again?


Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, 'Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?'
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 said the 'man of sin' will proclaim himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that worshipped. So when the whole world worships him (excepting Christ's elect who will be sealed), what don't you understand that he will do that by deception?


Rev 13:11-15
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
KJV

Not only with the coming pseudo-Christ work deception by what comes out of his mouth, but also by those great signs and wonders. And thus the whole world will be deceived into thinking he is Christ, all those NOT sealed with God's seal.

 

[Davy]

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Futuristic yea?? What of 2 Peter 2:10-18 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. [11] Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. [12] But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; [13] And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; [14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: [15] Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [16] But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. [17] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. [18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

The subject of the "strong delusion" that Apostle Paul was teaching about in 2 Thess.2 involves the coming false one he warned about there for the end of this world, just prior to Christ's coming to gather the Church. So why would you leave that point out there? What are your preachers telling you instead?

Paul said the 'man of sin' and a great falling away (Greek apostasia, which means apostasy) must happen first, prior to Christ's coming to gather the Church. He made it very plain. And he warned about that false one coming to sit in a temple in Jerusalem. Don't listen to Satan's workers in some so-called churches that try to say Paul was pointing to the spiritual temple in Christ, because NO one could ever... corrupt it, because our Lord Jesus Christ is its Cornerstone! Paul was pointing to a literal physical temple in Jerusalem the Antichrist will sit in at the very end of this world, just prior to Christ's return to gather His Church. Paul was pointing to the great tribulation timing.

 

[Davy]

It simply means these sealed are not part of the glorified church body. They are the firstfruits of the Millennium. They are never beheaded. They are on mount Zion during Satan's 42 months. Yes there are still some on earth who will always stay on the earth, even if beheaded.

BZZZZZZ..ZZZER! Wrong!

ONLY those sealed with God's Seal represents Christ's elect Church. All the Church goes through the "great tribulation" (except those in Christ that have already died, which Jesus brings with Him when He comes.)

 

[Davy]

Stings as those of scorpions…not to mention He restores that which the locust consumes and has eaten up. How then do you make it “that stinging represents deception” (not disagreeing) as in delusions something yet futuristic? When Paul said at his departure they would come in to deceive?
Ezekiel 2:5-10 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. [6] And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. [7] And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. [8] But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee. [9] And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; [10] And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

Here's something else about the 'stinging' metaphor God's Word uses in Revelation 9.

In Revelation 9:3, we are told the 'locusts' are given power AS scorpions of the earth have power.

Obviously, some brethren have a difficult time understanding that when God gives us a metaphor to understand, we are to grasp how the real thing in nature actually works. He didn't say the locusts were... real scorpions. He said the locusts have power AS... a scorpion on earth does. He is obviously giving us this scorpion metaphor as a way... that the locusts attack and work against those NOT sealed with God's seal.

So HOW does a real scorpion on earth work? We know it has a stinger tail, but how does a real scorpion actually operate?

1. the scorpion stings its prey, and emits a poison that numbs the prey
2. the scorpion has no digestive system, so it throws up a fluid inside the prey, and that fluid acts like acid, turning the bones and insides of the prey to mush.
3. the scorpion then sucks up the mush as food, leaving the prey as a lifeless empty shell.

Revelation 9:4-5 tells us the locusts can't hurt any green thing, nor even kill those NOT sealed with God's seal, but only STING AS... a scorpion. The above method of a real scorpion would CERTAINLY kill whatever prey it went after. So HOW is God using this as a metaphor against those NOT sealed?

Those NOT sealed aren't killed by it, yet the operation is metaphorically upon them like HOW a real scorpion attacks, SO... what KIND of working must it be?

DECEPTION.

The POISON the scorpion emits to numb is what the 'sting' initially does. The object is the capture of one's SOUL, not the flesh.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Post# 4

Do you seriously believe that Moses and Elijah preaching the Gospel on earth…

Nowhere is it written that Moses and Elijah will be preaching the gospel on earth. Adding this to Revelation 11:3-6 is in direct disobedience to the forbidden action of adding to the word of God.

These unknown witnesses will be prophesying. What they will be prophesying is not known.

 

[Enoch111]

Nowhere is it written that Moses and Elijah will be preaching the gospel on earth. Adding this to Revelation 11:3-6 is in direct disobedience to the forbidden action of adding to the word of God.

Nonsense. Proper Bible interpretation is NOT adding to anything but interpreting -- rightly dividing -- the Word of Truth.

1. The Bible clearly states that Elijah will be present on earth before the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Mal 4:5,6)

2. Moses and Elijah were the two prophets who met with Christ at His transfiguration. Therefore they are joined together in a very special way in Scripture. They spoke with Christ about His finished work of redemption and His departure back to Heaven.

3. Elijah stopped the rain on earth for 3 1/2 years . The two prophets will be on earth for exactly 3 1/2 years (1,260 days = 42 months = 3 1/2 years) and Elijah will repeat what he did once again: These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:... (Rev 11:6a)

4. Moses turned the waters of the Nile into blood, and smote the earth with plagues:...and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (Rev 11:6b)

What will they be prophesying? Well prophesy is both forthtelling and foretelling. So they will preach the Gospel of Christ (called "the eternal Gospel" in Revelation) and foretell about the Great Tribulation and events to follow. They will warn the people to repent, and many Jews will repent and be converted at that time.

As I have said before, too many Christians will not believe anything until they see explicit statements. But that is not how Bible interpretation works.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

1. The Bible clearly states that Elijah will be present on earth before the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

Christ applied this prophecy to his time period in the person of John the Baptist.

"But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Matthew 17:12-13)

This is not a prophecy concerning the events in Revelation.

I believe you are in error in this regard.