No one knows the day or the hour?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
Apparently though, Jesus knew the generation.


Matthew16: 28. Truly I say to you, There are some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


Matthew 25: 64. Jesus says to him, You have said: nevertheless I say to you, After this you will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Mark: 9: 1. And he said to them, Truly I say to you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.



Mark 14:61 ...Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62. And Jesus said, I am: and you will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven


Luke 9: 27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.



Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is close: 33. So likewise, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.





Mark 13:26. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: 29. So you, in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is close, even at the doors. 30. Truly I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things are done.


Luke 21:29. And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30. When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now close at hand. 31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know that the kingdom of God is close at hand. 32. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

The point being that Jesus can't tell them the exact year, month and day that his prophesies will transpire. Only the Father knew that. He can however tell them that it will happen in that generation. And why not? Daniel clearly prophesied in chapter 9:24-27 also that when the messiah comes (as a baby in a manger) the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.
 

whirlwind

New Member
Nov 8, 2007
1,286
31
0
78
Apparently though, Jesus knew the generation.




Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is close: 33. So likewise, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.




The point being that Jesus can't tell them the exact year, month and day that his prophesies will transpire. Only the Father knew that. He can however tell them that it will happen in that generation. And why not? Daniel clearly prophesied in chapter 9:24-27 also that when the messiah comes (as a baby in a manger) the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.



It is written....

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven,neither the Son, but the Father.


However, it is also written....


John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?




If the Father knows then...would not Christ know for He and the Father are One. And, if They/He know then...are we who are One with Him to also know?


John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

.



 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
It is written....

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven,neither the Son, but the Father.


However, it is also written....


John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?




If the Father knows then...would not Christ know for He and the Father are One. And, if They/He know then...are we who are One with Him to also know?


John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

.








I was refering to the fact that Jesus was putting approx dates on when his prophecy's would be fullfilled. I wasn't refering to anything else.

 

BibleScribe

Member
Jun 17, 2011
983
5
18
S.W. USA
...
The point being that Jesus can't tell them the exact year, month and day that his prophesies will transpire. Only the Father knew that. He can however tell them that it will happen in that generation. And why not? Daniel clearly prophesied in chapter 9:24-27 also that when the messiah comes (as a baby in a manger) the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed.


Hi Dan,

I would seem that Revelation 22:18-19 offers very good advice in this subject:


[sup]18[/sup] For[sup][[/sup][sup]i[/sup][sup]][/sup] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[sup][[/sup][sup]j[/sup][sup]][/sup] to him the plagues that are written in this book; [sup]19[/sup] and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[sup][[/sup][sup]k[/sup][sup]][/sup] his part from the Book[sup][[/sup][sup]l[/sup][sup]][/sup] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


As such, where Scripture simply says no man knows the day nor the hour, that we CAN know the: week, month, season, year, decade (10), score (20), century (100), daytona (500), or millennium (1000).

Accordingly, I would assert that Scripture provides the year, and discernment provides the season/month and possibly even the week.


BibleScribe :)
 

biggandyy

I am here to help...
Oct 11, 2011
1,753
147
0
SWPA
To what end? Paul tells us to encourage each other with this information so we may not despair from doing good. Seems most American christians merely want to have their ears tickled and fancies stroked with all these date setting gymnastics.

The Bible is NOT an erector set, constructing all manner of ill will and heresy from stringing together ever longer strands of unrelated passages. How many proof texts did Paul use in his writings? Apollos? What about Peter or Jude? My rule of thumb is theirs, if it takes more than 2 or 3 passages to provide a sound Biblical foundation for a teaching that teaching is probably worthless.
 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
Hmm, there seems to be some kind of a fog as to what I am trying to point out, makes it hard to see. My fault.
Lets try it this way.

Almost all believers use the phrase. "No one knows the day or the hour" to shoot down future end time predictions. Yet Jesus used that phrase "no one knows the day or the hour" to tell them that no one knows the exact day and hour of the events that he predicted\ prophesied would happen in the first century. In other words that phrase, "no one knows the day and the hour." is being ripped out of it's context of events that were to happen in the first century, and put in context of never end prognostications about future events.

However. That is not really what I wanted to discuss. What I wanted people to "discover" by all those scriptures I listed was that Jesus, Jehovah the Word himself. Put a date on the fulfillment of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. The date he put on the fulfillment of those prophesies was in the lifetime's of many of those to whom he was speaking.He even used his signature phrase "In truth I say to you." to say, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Just in case anybody might think I might be saying that the Word of God has falsehood in it. I am not. To put it bluntly though, are you? (Not speaking to anybody in particular.) But are you saying that Jesus's prophecies did not come to pass when he said they would via your teachings and doctrines? That is the question I wanted people to ask themselves by that list of verses.
 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
To what end? Paul tells us to encourage each other with this information so we may not despair from doing good. Seems most American christians merely want to have their ears tickled and fancies stroked with all these date setting gymnastics.

The Bible is NOT an erector set, constructing all manner of ill will and heresy from stringing together ever longer strands of unrelated passages. How many proof texts did Paul use in his writings? Apollos? What about Peter or Jude? My rule of thumb is theirs, if it takes more than 2 or 3 passages to provide a sound Biblical foundation for a teaching that teaching is probably worthless.

Well you are correct in the sense that no one gets to lay down rules for the game of winning souls, changing hearts and instruction in the truth. Your also correct in that many "proof" texts doesn't necessarily make it so.

However the Word of God is a marvelous book in this sense among many others. Which would be: If you have an over all opinion of a subject covered by the Word, a teaching, an "ism." The wonderful thing is that you will find is that if your overall viewpoint is off, just partially correct or flat out wrong. Then you will find a number of verses that directly contradict it. It's written like that so that one may know they do not have it all figured out. (or they are flat out wrong for that matter.) This is the reason I listed all those verses. To show that there are multiple direct contraindications in the scripture to what many millions very sincerely believe.

I call the three that are at the end of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 2. Firewall verses. Verses that are there (as far as our generations are concerned) to alert the new christian, the new reader to when this will occur. So that they do not do what their natural inclinations would lead them to do. I.e. look at the illustrative language of those verses that they do not comprehend nor understand as events that lay in their future. One of the main reasons for real prophecy that comes via the grace of God is so that we may have reasonable expectations about what will and what will not possible in our future. To save us, and to help us work with him in the advancement of his kingdom. The consequences of misunderstanding real prophecy can be cataclysmic. Or as in this case to not put Bible prophecies in their proper times and seasons. To place them in a time and season where they do not belong, well it has been disastrous, and few realize this.
 

BibleScribe

Member
Jun 17, 2011
983
5
18
S.W. USA
...
The date he put on the fulfillment of those prophesies was in the lifetime's of many of those to whom he was speaking.He even used his signature phrase "In truth I say to you." to say, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
...


Hi Dan,

I'm afraid I still don't understand exactly how the "day or the hour" would be any different whether in the first century, or in the twenty-first century. -- Maybe I'm slow. :unsure:

Secondly, I would propose that you misunderstand the inference of the "generation". It seems that there are two potential intents, -- the first would be a literal generation of either 40 or 70 years. The second would be the existence of mankind. As such, where so many fear that man could destroy the earth many times over, and thereby end humanity, -- Jesus asserts that this shall not happen. We SHALL see HIM coming in HIS glory, and mankind SHALL rule and reign with HIM for a thousand years. And after the thousand years, those who are alive and remain on earth shall be caught up to be with the LORD forever in the air (New Jerusalem).


Or so it would seem. :)

BibleScribe
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom."

A lot of people have difficulty with this verse, however with the rest of God's Word it is simple. Jesus spoke of His crucifixion, and that He would rise on the third day, and when He rose He had His kingdom with Him. And all but Judas would see Him in His glorified body, the King of the kingdom. When Christ came out of the tomb, He became the King of His kingdom, and all those that claim the name of Christ are of the kingdom of God.


Mark 9:1 "And He said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Most of the people in Jesus day, just like the people of today think of the time of the "kingdom of God" as the eternity, when all soul will be out of these flesh bodies. Well it is not. The "kingdom of God" came when Jesus Christ completed Him mission, died on the cross and arose the third day right here on earth. That mission is stated in Hebrews 2:14; "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is. the devil; "
To understand that mission, we have to go back into the first earth age, prior to the time that men's souls lived in flesh bodies. In Hebrews 2:14 Satan's name is "death", because Satan has already been sentenced to death. Satan is going to die, and there is no repentance for Him, for all hope was taken from Him in the first earth age. Ezekiel 28:12 tells us that our Heavenly Father created Satan [king of Tyrus], and that he was one of God's sons. God made Satan the full pattern of beauty and wisdom in that first earth age.


Mark 14:61 "But He held His peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, and said, "Art Thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

The high priest is asking Jesus, "Are you Jesus the anointed one?".


Mark 14:62 "And Jesus said, "I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

Jesus is telling these religious leaders absolutely that He is the Son of the living God, the Messiah. Then He told them that He is the one that would be sitting on the right hand of the Father, and He would be the one to come at the second advent.


Luke 9:27 "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."


The kingdom of God started the moment that Jesus Christ came out of that tomb, resurrected. Jesus Christ is the King, and His dominion became what was once Satan's. Satan's rule now in the end times will only be by the permission and authority that God gives to him. When he comes to deceive the world at the sixth trump, Revelation 9:1 tells us that God gave him the authority and permission to deceive the world for those five months. When the five months are over, Satan goes back to the pit, and the fallen angels to the abyss to be held for destruction after the Millennium and the great white throne Judgment.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God.

Matthew 24:32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

This lets us know that the generation of the end times begin in the year 1948. For both the good and the bad fig tree returned to Judaea and were placed there, as Jeremiah wrote in Jeremiah 24. That is the subject of Matthew 24. Jesus told us in Mark 13:28, 29, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near," [28] "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh even at the doors." [29]

Do you know why Eve used fig leaves to cover her private parts, or what she gave birth to? That is what the parable is all about. The bad figs are the Kenites, and Matthew 13 discusses this parable in detail. Jesus even explains it to His disciples in verses 36-43. The parable of the fig tree is "the parable of the tares of the field".

Matthew 24:33 "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

"It is near, even at the doors", should read, "He is near, even at the doors." When you see the Antichrist stand, and proclaim himself to be God, and you are still in your flesh body, and the sun, moon and stars are still in the sky, know that the coming of the True Christ is very near.

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
"This generation" is the parable of the fig tree, that was alive at the planting of the fig tree in 1948. It is the generation that we are living in today.

Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."
Even after the return of Jesus Christ and when we are in the Millennium age, we will still have the Word of God, with all the promises that are contained within . Not one thing will change form the overall plan of the Almighty God.


Mark 13:26 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

The "Son of man" is Jesus Christ the Anointed one. This is telling us that we should not expect the return of the True Christ until after the coming of the false christ, and the tribulation that Satan will bring with him. If you listen to these false teachers and prophets that are preparing you for the first christ, you will be deceived and taken by Satan. You will be impregnated by Satan spiritually, and you will stand in shame at the return of the True Christ. Many are going to do all sorts of things in Jesus name, healings, casting out of demons, teaching and yet when by the things that they teach and do, they are to the false christ.
So after that tribulation of Satan has happened, that will be worse than any tribulation since the time of the creation itself: Christ will come. This time is so serious because it is spiritual, it deals with people losing their souls for an eternity.

Mark 13:27
"And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the heaven."

Lets tie this verse in with Revelation 6:14.
Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

It is telling us that this sixth seal is the time that the false messiah returns. Notices that it is the sixth trumpet that is also the sixth seal. When the "four winds" are mentioned, it always has to do with the consummating the end of this earth age. The four winds are the four spirits that are talked about in Revelation 7, and they close in from all directions to center on one point, and that is the end of this period of time. In Revelation 7 the four angels that control these four winds held back their coming until the sealing of all of the 144,000 was seal, and now at the sixth seal, it is time for the false messiah to come.
Remember that when the True Christ returns great things are going to happen. Remember those untimely figs? Well, Jesus is going to warn us about them.

Mark 13:28 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:"
Jesus is giving a command to His elect here, "learn a parable of the fig tree".

It is necessary for you to know this parable, or you will never understand the consummation of the end of this earth age. You have to know a little about agriculture to understand the teachings of our Heavenly Father. You don't plant a fig tree, you set out shoots, and it is from that shoot that the tree is formed and it then brings forth leaves. Those leaves are the new growth, meaning that this shoot is yet tender. In this state, this fig tree will not produce any fruit. This particular fig tree produces both the good and the bad figs, that we read of in Jeremiah 24, about the two baskets of figs.

Remember that one basket set was of Good figs, and the other basked was Bad figsThe "parable of the fig tree" started in the garden of Eden, and most churches have turned this parable into a joke and a fairy-tale about apples. What happened in the garden of Eden, happened in a fig grove, and after what was done there, Adam and Eve sowed fig leaves together to cover the parts of their body that did the evil act. They made aprons to cover their private parts, because what happened there cause children to be born, one child was Cain, the son of Satan, and the other was Abel, the son of Adam. The parable of the fig tree is the identifying those children of Cain, which are called the Kenites, and the evil destruction that they are bringing on God's children, the offspring of Adam, through Seth.

Jesus didn't say, maybe you should learn this parable of the fig tree, He commanded us to do it. So the horticulture of this parable is that the fig tree always puts forth shoots, and Jeremiah 24 symbolized when Judah would return to Jerusalem, and Judaea, and that happened in 1948, at the establishment of the nation of Israel, as we know it today. Full control of the city was after the war with the Arabs of 1967. This return to establish this Jewish state is important because it is part of the "parable of the fig tree", that Jesus commanded us to learn.

Mark 13:29 "So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors."
"These things" that Jesus is speaking about are these seven seals of that are the subject of Mark 13. In the verse just before this, it told us that summer was nigh and the time for Christ harvest of this earth age was going to take place. So when you see the events of these seals take place, than know that the end of this earth age of the flesh is coming to a close. Some of the signs of the end, as we saw earlier, are the establishing of a Jewish state, the new world order taking place, nations align up as biblically prophesied, and remember that when the tribe of Judah returned to their home land, it hadn't happened since their were booted out by General Titus in 70 A.D.

There is not need to guess on this matter, for when you know the parable of the fig tree, God sets the date, and we are to observe what He has written to us through His Word.
Never before since the crucifixion of Christ has the Jews returned to Judaea as a nation. Remember that this was part of the subject, from verse fourteen. "But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:" The command then was to flee Judaea, that is where the fig tree was to be set out.

Mark 13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."
Jesus is telling His disciples and thus we can count on this happening absolutely. The generation that Jesus is speaking of here is the the generation that is present to see the shoot planted in Jerusalem and Judaea. The generation that started when Jerusalem came into the hands of the Jews and the nation was establish, and it happened in 1948. Even though Jerusalem and the west bank never was completely taken unto 1967, be that as it is now, it still took place many years ago and we are living in that final generation. All the things that pertain to the seven seals will be witnessed by our generation and take place right before our eyes. Jesus is warning us to watch out for them, all of them, or you will be deceived and become part of Satan's bride

Luke 21:29 "And He spake to them a parable; "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees:"

It is very important that you understand this parable of the fig tree, and to draw attention to this fig tree, Christ walked up to one fig tree and cursed it, and caused it to die instantly. Why, He wanted to show us that Jeremiah 24 was fact. There are good figs and there are bad figs, The good figs are very good and the bad figs are very bad. The subject in Jeremiah is Jerusalem, and who will inhabit it in that last days of this earth age. We are living in those days when both the good and bad figs are in Jerusalem; for Jesus went on to say:
Matthew 24:34, 35 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."
You don't plant a fig tree with a seed, but you plant it with a shoot. You set it out.

Luke 21:30 "When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand."


The good and bad figs are there now, with Satan on His way to take charge in Jerusalem. Expect it, and Jesus said that we are the generation that shall see all the signs of the end times, before our generation comes to an end. We are fifty years into the end time generation. Most of the events of the end times are history to us living today. Those prophesies happened exactly as they were written. In "summer time" the harvest takes place, and the destination of the crop depends on what that fruit is. The point is that the good grain is separated from the tares, and the good grains are stored, and the bad tares are burned. If you think that you can play Satan's comes, and be his harlot, you will be separated at the time of our Lord's coming.

Luke 21:31 "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is night at hand."
We know that the end time is very near.

Luke 21:32 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
Above we stated this same statement from Matthew 24:34, and this is a second witness to that fact. The wise in the end times understand the season, but not the day, hour or moment, for nobody know that except the Father. The season started many years ago, so don't pay attention to the specific times, but to the events that are named in this chapter. Our generation will not pass until all these events are fulfilled; and you can count on that.

Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away."
This is another witness to Matthew 24:25. You just don't waste time studying the Word of God, because it will never change. This is the only written word that remains true through all the ages.

The point is to rightly divide the Word
 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
Hi Dan,

I'm afraid I still don't understand exactly how the "day or the hour" would be any different whether in the first century, or in the twenty-first century. -- Maybe I'm slow. :unsure:

Secondly, I would propose that you misunderstand the inference of the "generation". It seems that there are two potential intents, -- the first would be a literal generation of either 40 or 70 years. The second would be the existence of mankind. As such, where so many fear that man could destroy the earth many times over, and thereby end humanity, -- Jesus asserts that this shall not happen. We SHALL see HIM coming in HIS glory, and mankind SHALL rule and reign with HIM for a thousand years. And after the thousand years, those who are alive and remain on earth shall be caught up to be with the LORD forever in the air (New Jerusalem).


Or so it would seem. :)

BibleScribe

There would be no difference whatsoever. It seems you are taking it in the common sense simplicity it should be taken. However I would ask that you do the same for the generation thing. If Jesus says no one knows the day nor the hour this will take place but it will take place before this generation passes. Then accept it for what it says.

What I have notice over the years with the Bible is that people do not read it the way they would read any other literature. It seems like the rules that people would normally apply to themselves when they are reading and understanding any type of literature just get thrown out the door when it comes to the Word of God. I can't get mad at them about it, after all when you meet Christ everything becomes new. You are now having an experience that did not exist before you accepted him. It not something we understand at first. It seems many never understand it even though they are having it. So in the midst of this, reading his Word becomes something we never experienced. Yet how quick are so many to condemn the obvious excesses of the Pentecostal movement. When people are experiencing things they never have and because of ignorance, they get excessive in those experiences. Yet I say to you that those same excesses are abundantly apparent in the reading and understanding the Word of God. People seem to throw out the simple and common sense. To the point that if they were being tested in a college literature class on the texts in question, they would fail miserably.

I'll just be honest with you. You cannot take those verses to mean anything other than what they say. All of those things will happen before that generation he was talking to passed away. Yes approx 40 years. To do so is to accuse Christ of a false prophecy. In fact they did come to pass. Now I did not say the things you believe came to pass. I said what he prophesied accoding to the way he understood them came to pass in that generation. He knew what he was talking about. It seems our generation does not.
 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
n2thelight,

I'm not trying to be short, or mean, personally attack you or anything like that. It's just that I live near Sedona AZ, New age mecca. I could go to any one of their centers up there and listen to them use the Word of God the exact same way you are using it. No regard for any rules of literature which the western world got from the Bible in the first place. The supreme regard is for the doctrines they already have. I know you are sincere in what you believe and you are probably a real Christian. But you just can't invalidate what Christ said in very simple words by pasting your overall beliefs on top of them. It does not matter how many verses you use to do this with. Yes I know taking it for exactly what it says without regard for the things you believe already is troublesome. It may blow a big hole in the side of your boat. (It might not sink immediately.)

Really, how can I even argue with you about this? Your not even being consistent with the way you already use some Bible phrases in what you wrote in your post.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
n2thelight,

I'm not trying to be short, or mean, personally attack you or anything like that. It's just that I live near Sedona AZ, New age mecca. I could go to any one of their centers up there and listen to them use the Word of God the exact same way you are using it. No regard for any rules of literature which the western world got from the Bible in the first place. The supreme regard is for the doctrines they already have. I know you are sincere in what you believe and you are probably a real Christian. But you just can't invalidate what Christ said in very simple words by pasting your overall beliefs on top of them. It does not matter how many verses you use to do this with. Yes I know taking it for exactly what it says without regard for the things you believe already is troublesome. It may blow a big hole in the side of your boat. (It might not sink immediately.)

Really, how can I even argue with you about this? Your not even being consistent with the way you already use some Bible phrases in what you wrote in your post.

No offense taken,It would help if you point out which phrases you are referring too,and point out how I invalidated the words of Christ,ty....

Oh and I forgot to provide the source,my apologies

http://theseason.org/
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
That verse of scripture from mat 24 is talking about the end of the age or world and the beginning of the Kingdom of God on earth. If you listen to what Matthew wrote you will learn how to tell when it will happen. Because there comes a time when God reveals it through His prophets to man.

Matthew 24
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.






.
 

BibleScribe

Member
Jun 17, 2011
983
5
18
S.W. USA
...
All of those things will happen before that generation he was talking to passed away. Yes approx 40 years. ...

The fact is, the preterists espouse a doctrine which supports your view, but neither Scripture nor History support it. Thus when Jesus quoted Daniel, and Daniel defines those event for the time-of-the-end, (which is approximate to 1948), then we must understand HIS context of the ~generation of mankind~.

As such, we are now in the end-times and not only are the prophecies of Daniel being fulfilled, but so too the prophecies of Jesus.


BibleScribe


PS This argument is not new to a preterist, but is presented for the other Forum readers. :)
 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
No offense taken,It would help if you point out which phrases you are referring too,and point out how I invalidated the words of Christ,ty....

Oh and I forgot to provide the source,my apologies

http://theseason.org/

It's kind of a simple explanation. If you did not have an overall belief on the subject already. How would you take these words?

Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is close: 33. So likewise, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13:26. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: 29. So you, in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is close, even at the doors. 30. Truly I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things are done.

Luke 21:29. And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30. When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now close at hand. 31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know that the kingdom of God is close at hand. 32. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

I think you would tell me tht they do not need any interpretation whatsoever. You would not be trying to equate a fig tree with Israel. In fact you might point out that Lukes rendition says "all the trees." You would tell me that the reference to trees just means what it says. He is illustrating that just like spring indicates summer is coming. When you see things Jesus list's happening then you will know that his prophecy is near completion, and that's my point. There is no need of "interpreting" these words. If these words were in any other book than the Bible you wouldn't question what they "mean." It says what it means would be your answer. These things will happen before the generation he was speaking to dies off.

So what is it that the prophecy is in regards to? Very simple.
Matthew 24:1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: Then his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said to them, Do you see all these things? Truly I say to you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?
Mark 12:1. And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Master, look at what manner of stones and the buildings that are here! 2. And Jesus answering said to him, do you see these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 4. Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Luke 21:5. And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts, he said,6. As for these things which you see, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

He is directly answering his disciples questions about the buildings they are looking at after he told them they would be destroyed. He is telling them when and how it will happen. You are saying that it did not happen in that generation which is what I mean about you declaring Jesus's words to be false. Just to add as an aside. The progressives in the beginning of the last century did this (among other things) to remove the Bible from it's place in our nations universities. They are not stupid in the sense of craftiness.

Now I understand the difficulties in all the verses in between the beginning of Christs prophecy to it's end. The proper way to search out the answers though was to confine the search to the first century. Cause if they did not happen then, then the Bible is not the Word of God. That there are four or five of those verses that use the highly illustrative language of biblical prophecy that is hard to understand. Thats difficult, I know. But most of it does not. And the stuff that does not is readily accessible through historical references. In other words it is easy to find out that it came to pass with a vengeance in the region. Because many Christians do not know this I also listed these other verses in my first post. To show that Jesus was very consistent about the timing of these things.

Matthew16: 28. Truly I say to you, There are some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 25: 64. Jesus says to him, You have said: nevertheless I say to you, After this you will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 9: 1. And he said to them, Truly I say to you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 14:61 ...Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62. And Jesus said, I am: and you will see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven

Luke 9: 27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

I hope I am making sense here. The need to interpret these verses as not having happened to that generation is because of an overall belief about bible prophecy or end time prophecy in the hearts of those who did not notice or acknowledge first, that Jesus put a date on the fulfillment of them. In other words for most people, the overall belief came first, without sufficient study of the scripture itself, first. Then on top of this they did not refer to any historical reference material to see if the things that are using simple non illustrative language actually happened. They also throw out a most basic rule of literature. That Jesus is clearly addressing them in the second person. (Look it up if you don't know what that means.) (Also ignore the man behind the curtain who is beginning sentences with and and but amoungst many other grievous grammer crimes!) Of course there are issues with translation. Then most of all there are those verses that use the highly illustrative language of Bible prophecy. Fugetaboutit. There are some that no matter how well those verses are properly and scripturally interpreted. They will never look on it as something outside of what they already believe.

If you want I have an article on this subject that goes through all the historical references. May be the best one on the internet for that.

http://wordservice.o...sics/bb3000.htm
 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
That verse of scripture from mat 24 is talking about the end of the age or world and the beginning of the Kingdom of God on earth. If you listen to what Matthew wrote you will learn how to tell when it will happen. Because there comes a time when God reveals it through His prophets to man.

Matthew 24
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.






.
Well you are correct, it is referring to the end of an age. The Greek word is "aion" it is not translatable into the word "world" in modern English. It is the word "age." I realize some translations do this. They are not translating though they are interpreting. Which you do not need some one to do that for you. You can do the interpreting yourself.

So the real question is what age is it talking about? The first covenant age is the answer. There where ages to come you know? Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Plus the fact that they were right smack dab in the middle of the age of the gentiles. (These ages overlap.)
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
Well you are correct, it is referring to the end of an age. The Greek word is "aion" it is not translatable into the word "world" in modern English. It is the word "age." I realize some translations do this. They are not translating though they are interpreting. Which you do not need some one to do that for you. You can do the interpreting yourself.

So the real question is what age is it talking about? The first covenant age is the answer. There where ages to come you know? Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Plus the fact that they were right smack dab in the middle of the age of the gentiles. (These ages overlap.)
The first covenant age ended with the coming of the Messiah. Christ brought the new covenant. The age of this world is what is going to end real soon. When Christ takes up His great power and reigns. Beginning with His two witnesses, then ending the world with the resurrection of His saints, in a moment, at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye, when the Lord returns in a flash of lightning, shining from the eastern sky toward the western sky. This is what happens here on earth when the Lord arrives.

Joel 2
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run.
5 With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble, Like a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before them the people writhe in pain; All faces are drained of color.
7 They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like men of war; Every one marches in formation, And they do not break ranks.
8 They do not push one another; Every one marches in his own column. Though they lunge between the weapons, They are not cut down.
9 They run to and fro in the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?









.
 

[email protected]

New Member
Oct 7, 2011
28
0
0
The fact is, the preterists espouse a doctrine which supports your view, but neither Scripture nor History support it. Thus when Jesus quoted Daniel, and Daniel defines those event for the time-of-the-end, (which is approximate to 1948), then we must understand HIS context of the ~generation of mankind~.

As such, we are now in the end-times and not only are the prophecies of Daniel being fulfilled, but so too the prophecies of Jesus.


BibleScribe


PS This argument is not new to a preterist, but is presented for the other Forum readers. :)

Preterism is a belief that all of Bible prophecy including all of the book of Revelation was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Ridiculous isn't it? Yet I consider it just as ridiculous to deny that with very plain and simple wording Jesus attached a date to the destruction of Jerusalem. Before the generation he was speaking to passes away. Many people that you probably consider great men of God espouse what I am espousing. Presterist's might label them "partial Presterist. " Yet I would say Preterist's do this to add some legitimacy to the absurd Preterist viewpoint. . In other words to acknowledge the obvious: That Jesus said the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed before the generation he was speaking to passed away. That these are the things and signs that would lead up to it is not anything but fitting, logical, biblical, common sense, Godly and wise. So why bring Preterism into it? The Word of God stands on it's own merits. It has no need of any escatological viewpoint to help it along. You see I could say this to you. Jehovah's witnessess teach what you are teaching about these verses in question.(Which they do.) However that in and of itself does not disprove what you are saying, does it?

So no I totally reject any context outside of the context Jesus himself created. . He created the context when he said:
Matthew 24: 34. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
Mark 13:30. Truly I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things are done.
Luke 21: 32. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

He made that declaration regarding the time that the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed as shown in these verses.
Matthew 24:1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: Then his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said to them, Do you see all these things? Truly I say to you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?
Mark 12:1. And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, Master, look at what manner of stones and the buildings that are here! 2. And Jesus answering said to him, do you see these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 4. Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Luke 21:5. And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts, he said,6. As for these things which you see, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7. And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

That is the context. You are taking it out of the context Jesus placed it in and putting it in another context because you are ignorant of the history of the first century and you do not understand some of the illustrative language he uses. Are you actually saying the the city and the sanctuary were not destroyed in 70A.D. ? (Just like and when Jesus said by the way.) Your probably not, you just may have never quite thought of it that way before.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
895
26
0
So no I totally reject any context outside of the context Jesus himself created. . He created the context when he said:
Matthew 24: 34. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled
Mark 13:30. Truly I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things are done.
Luke 21: 32. In truth I say to you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
That sinful and adulterous generation is still here. The devil has changed the meaning of Generation to annul your understanding. It is a type and their whole family including all offspring that will come forth from them. here is the word.
Strong's Number: 1074 Original Word Word Origin geneav from (a presumed derivative of) (1085) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Genea 1:662,114 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech ghen-eh-ah' Noun Feminine Definition
  1. fathered, birth, nativity
  2. that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
    1. the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
    2. metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
      1. esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
  3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time
  4. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years
King James Word Usage - Total: 42 generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1