Noah's Ark, I mean really??????

[Tim TP]

There has never been a world flood.

There is no evidence of such an event.

There is absolute evidence that it did not happen.

Such an event would remodel every river valley in the world and deposit most of the world's soil into the oceans. It did not happen.

Why ask detailed questions about a story which is at best a metaphore?

 

[Raining]

What is a Flood?

Can I flood a room with CO2, Can I flood a room with heat, cold air, light, darkness, space, nothing, cosmic rays or even water?

I'm not sure the bible tells that the flood was H2o, and it also said every living thing with the breath of air. I do not think the sea life was effected, unless it had something else beside pure rain water.

I see pollution can flood the earth, and water is life on earth, as its in all things besides dust.

I believe pure water is life on this earth, as we know today, not death. So something is not understood correctly in the bible.

The Ark was a system / tool to protect life from something out of balance.

 

[Tim TP]

As usual I also have no real idea what you are on about Raining.

The Biblical description is definately water, sea water. A flood means a water flood unless otherwise specified. The notion of gas had yet to be in hunam parliance.

 

[Dan57]

I personally don't believe Noah's flood was worldwide in scope. However, I do believe the entire world was completely submerged at some point (Psalm 104:5-9). Otherwise, its very difficult to explain seashells and other ocean-dwelling creatures being found in sedimentary rock 3000 feet up on Mt. Everest.

Yes, a world flood would reshape rivers, valleys, mountains, etc, and that probably occurred in Genesis 1:9-10.
http://www.depodio.com/noah.htm

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I personally don't believe Noah's flood was worldwide in scope. However, I do believe the entire world was completely submerged at some point (Psalm 104:5-9). Otherwise, its very difficult to explain seashells and other ocean-dwelling creatures being found in sedimentary rock 3000 feet up on Mt. Everest.

Yes, a world flood would reshape rivers, valleys, mountains, etc, and that probably occurred in Genesis 1:9-10.
http://www.depodio.com/noah.htm

Hi Dan ..... for what its worth I mentioned this on another thread....

72% of the world is submerged right now
Only 28% of the earths surface is above sea level
And most of that is only a few feet above sea level

Other than the high mountains it would take very little to completely cover the earth with water.

The high mountains with marine fossils on them are a puzzle .... I think when God ended the Noah flood he simultaneously raised up the mountains and deepened parts of the ocean

The water had to go somewhere and that would be one way to do it.

trivia: ... the same marine fossils on mount Everest can be found on the beaches of Baja California.
If the mountains were raised right after the flood it could explain it.

best wishes

 

[Tim TP]

This is exactly what I mean in the denial of geology thread.

The marine fossils (limestone) which make up most of the Hymilays are there because the sea bed has beeen forced upwards due to it being crushed between the India plate and the Eurasian plate. This process is ongoing and clear.

The fact that there are such many kilometers thick deposits of sedimentary rock makes it utterly clear that the earth has been here a very long time.

The vast evidence which any sort of vast flood would leave behind is simply not here. It never happened. Genisis is wrong. Stop lying to yourself and to everyone else.

You may be upset that I use such strong words but I am here to try to stop religion from destroying lives by disconnecting you from the real world. To do that mentally disturbing folks is inevitable. Reality is sometimes harsh.

 

[Mungo]

I think that Genesis isn't meant to be taken as science. It's a theological book to explain questions of origins of life, of mankind, of good and evil, of God and his relationship and dealings with man. To some extent we can read it as literal in order to unpack the meaning, but (for example) to go seaching Mount Ararat for the remains of a boat that carried mutiples of all the species of the earth for 40 days is bonkers. I would take it more as a super parable.

There are accounts of a major flood in (as I understand it) the Epic of Gilgamesh. The flood story is probably based on some real major flood event in the area.

 

[Tim TP]

There are accounts of a major flood in (as I understand it) the Epic of Gilgamesh. The flood story is probably based on some real major flood event in the area.

Probably the flooding of the Black sea.

There is evidence that this occured in the same period as early human huntergatherers were wandering around those parts.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

There has never been a world flood.

There is no evidence of such an event.

There is absolute evidence that it did not happen.

Then please explain why there are more sharks teeth in the prairies of North Dakota than almost anywhere else in the world.

Rugby North Dakota is dead center of the North American continent .... it is as far away from the oceans as you can get.

And you still have not addressed why the same fossils are on Everest and in Baja California.

I would not trust one split second of my future with Darwin and his Finches.

I will stick with the Genesis record of creation.

At least it can be reconciled with known science

And it does not require the fictitious magic formula known as "billions and billions of years"

Best wishes in your research Tim

 

[Tim TP]

I would need the detail of where the fossil teeth are found in North Dakota. What rock beds are they in? How old are they?

Everest and Baja California are both mountain areas which have been fairly recently (by geologic standards) lifted up by the sea bed being crushed between the Indian plate and the Euraisin plate in Everest's case and the crushing of the western side of the North American plate by friction with the Pacific sea bed which it is steadily riding over. These are ongoing processes which are measurable in cm per year.

Limestone is never a flood deposit. Miles thick limestone took many millions of years to form from the slow deposit of tiny sea shells on the sea bed.

All of geology is 100% incompatable with a young earth. 99.999% of geology is 100% compatable withan old earth. The final little bit is where the rock is younger than the few thousand years that the creationists claim for the age of the earth. They are lying. Plain and simple.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I would need the detail of where the fossil teeth are found in North Dakota. What rock beds are they in? How old are they?

Google ... "sharks teeth" Dakota" ... and you should be able to find lots of info

I know farmers who said when the pioneers turned the sod the ground was white with teeth .... there used to be a lot of stores in N. & S. Dakota who sold sharks teeth pendants back when the JAWS movie was popular. Not much demand any more

I live just across the border in Manitoba Canada .... thousands of years ago this whole area used to be a huge body of water called Lake Agassi ..... this is a geological fact and every scientist will agree it was all under water at one time

As a matter of fact the body of water was was larger than all of the modern Great Lakes combined, and at times it held more water than contained by all lakes in the world today

Every scientist and geologist would agree with that YES !!!

So would you Tim !!!!!

So WTF do you insist it could not be the water from Noah's Flood

It is you guys who talk with a forked tongue

 

[Tim TP]

OK, so it was a huge lake with sharks in it. Or at least that's what you seem to be saying. You are also saying that there were these sharks living in it for many years many thousands of years ago.

I am not aware of any fresh water sharks so that sounds a little strange to me.

A flood deposit is a very distinctive feature. It would not have lots of sharks teeth in it. Any shark caught up in world flood would be swept along inland and then back to the sea with most of the land's soil and subsoil. The deposits from this vastly destructive event would mostly be droped in the seas and oceans. They would have lots of smashed bodies of land plants and ocaisional animals in them. Lots of Shark's teeth in Dakota is evidence that sharks once lived in water above what is now Dakota. It is evidence that they did this for a long time. It is evidence of an old earth. It is clearly 100% incompatable with a world flood.

Having now looked it up on Google;-

During the late Cretaceous period it is believed that South Dakota was completely covered by water. The fossil findings by scientists who are excavating throughout the state appear to support this theory. There have been findings of the fossils of many large marine animals who are believed to have survived during this period buried in the hard ground beneath the plains This includes those that were believe to be the ancestors of the modern day shark; many fossilized teeth have been recovered, and it is these teeth that are being either forged or sold by merchants of South Dakota.

The Cretaceous period was many millions of years ago.

You are posting evidence is support of an old earth.

 

[Mungo]

Shock discovery - Noah's Ark was round - like a giant coracle.


[SIZE=12pt]"Scholar says 3,700-year-old clay tablet reveals boat was a coracle made out of reeds and bitumen" [/SIZE]

Link

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

TimT .... I do not have the time to answer all your questions nor do I feel it is my duty to do your studying for you . I have a busy time coming up and must focus on it.

I would like you to know that for about 10 years I personally studied creation vs evolution to get rid of all the annoying claims on both sides and as a result I am a firm creationist , and have tendencies toward a young earth.

To be fair , and as I said earlier , Christians have done an absolutely lousy job of defending the Genesis record

To simply say "The bible says so" is not enough (for the secular world) , and I agree.

Slowly Christian scientists are doing a better job of it.

Here is a video by someone who is neither a creationist nor a christian .... it is probably one of the best videos a person could ever watch , full of truth and no religion ....

Here is part 1 .... I think there are 3 videos in all

Let us know what you think of them TimT

best wishes

Arnie M.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5r5cRlctLM

 

[Tim TP]

I think that the "go away and look at these endless videos telling you nothing" tactic is standard in debating with theists.

Any chance you can just tell me what it says?

I don't seem to have a problem explaining the formation of sandstone deposits from a photo.

 

[Dodo_David]

[SIZE=16pt]Genesis Flood[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Plenty of leaders of modern-day Western churches believe that every detail of every verse in Genesis is literally true. However, this belief is not universally accepted by Jewish and Christian theologians. The ancient Hebrews did not think the same way that modern-day Western people think, and the book of Genesis is of ancient Hebrew origin. So, modern-day theologians take into consideration the way that the ancient Hebrews interpreted Genesis. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Regarding the proper way to interpret ancient Hebrew writings, Christian theologian William Barclay quotes Old Testament scholar Rev. C.J. Ball as saying the following:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]“The Rabbi embodies his lesson in a story, whether parable or allegory or seeming historical narrative; and the last thing he or his disciples would think of is to ask whether the selected persons, events and circumstances which so vividly suggest the doctrine are in themselves real or fictitious. The doctrine is everything; the mode of presentation has no independent value. To make the story the first consideration, and the doctrine it was intended to convey an afterthought as we, with our dry Western literalness, are predisposed to, is to reverse the Jewish order of thinking, and to do unconscious injustice to the authors of many edifying narratives of antiquity.”[1]#_ftn1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Barclay adds, “This is to say that Jewish teachers were more concerned with truth than with fact. They are not interested in the momentary historical events of any story; they are interested only in the eternal truth which the story is designed to illuminate and to convey.”[2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Jewish theologian Gunther Plaut writes, “The contemporary reader familiar with the history and the nature of the text will have to remember that a literal translation of the Torah may lead to grave misconceptions. Even the ancient Jewish sages, who believed that the Torah was a divinely authored book, did not take the text literally.”[/SIZE][3]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Jewish theologian Nahum Sarna writes, “The literalist approach serves to direct attention to those aspects of the narrative that reflect the time and place of its composition, while it tends to obscure the elements that are meaningful and enduring, thus destroying the biblical message and destroying its relevancy.”[4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Indeed, modern-day Christian clergy don't insist on a strict literal interpretation of every Old Testament verse. For example, Joshua 10:12-13 states the following:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]"At that time Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.” And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] The above verses say that the Sun stood still, reflecting the ancient belief that the Sun revolved around the Earth. We now know that the Earth revolves around the Sun. We understand that the above verses reflect how things appeared to Joshua, and yet we also understand that, if any celestial body stopped moving, then it was the Earth, not the Sun.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] So, if a strict literal interpretation is not applied to a Bible verse, then the verse can still be authoritative and teach a spiritual truth. Although the Sun did not literally stand still in Joshua 10:12-13, that passage still tells us that God is in full control of events, and that God used his omnipotence to help the Israelites defeat the Amorites in combat. It didn't matter which celestial object (if any) actually stood still. What mattered is that the God of Israel was the one responsible for the miracle, and the God of Israel was glorified as a result.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] Regarding the flood story in the book of Genesis, as German science reporter Werner Keller details in his book The Bible As History, plenty of archaeological evidence exists that ancient Mesopotamia was subjected to extensive flooding, with traces of such flooding reaching all the way to the city of Nineveh.[5][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] In 1929, British archaeologist Sir Charles Leonard Woolley was leading an archaeological dig at the ancient Sumerian city of Ur, when Woolley and his workers unexpectedly discovered evidence that the region around Ur had been subjected to a massive flood. Keller writes, “According to Woolley the disaster engulfed an area north-west of the Persian Gulf amounting to 400 miles long and 100 miles wide, looking at the map we should call it today “a local occurrence” – for the inhabitants of the river plains it was however in those days their whole world.”[6][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] As seen in Joshua 10:12-13, a story in the Old Testament can contain a detail that is not scientifically accurate because of the perspective of the story-teller, and, yet, the story can still be about an event that actually occurred. Thus, the flood story in Genesis could be about a flood that actually happened even if the perspective of the story-teller was not scientifically accurate. As explained by previously-cited theologians, according to the way that the ancient Hebrews thought, every little detail of a story did not have to be literally true in order for the spiritual lesson of the story to be true.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] Today, plenty of Christians do not accept as being literally true the description in Joshua:12-13 of the Sun standing still. Likewise, plenty of Christians do not accept as being literally true the description in Genesis of the entire Earth being covered by a single flood, because empirical data does not give evidence of a global flood.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt] What all Christians do accept as being literally true are the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, historical events that took place within a period of three days. Nothing in science does away with those events.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] So, one does not have to believe that the entire Earth was literally covered by a flood in order for one to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][1][/SIZE] William Barclay, The Mind of Christ (Harper & Row: 1961), p. 79.


[SIZE=10pt][2][/SIZE] Ibid.


[SIZE=10pt][3][/SIZE] Gunther Plaut, Torah Commentary (Union of American Hebrew Congregations: 1981), p. xx.


[SIZE=10pt][4][/SIZE] Nahum Sarna, Understanding Genesis (Melton Research Center of the Jewish Theological Seminary of America: 1966), p. 66.


[SIZE=10pt][5][/SIZE] Werner Keller, The Bible As History (Barnes & Noble Books: 1995), p. 49.


[SIZE=10pt][6]#_ftnref6 Ibid., p. 48.[/SIZE]

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I think that the "go away and look at these endless videos telling you nothing" tactic is standard in debating with theists.

Any chance you can just tell me what it says?

I don't seem to have a problem explaining the formation of sandstone deposits from a photo.

I agree about endless videos ... I seldom bother either.

What is says is how unscientific Darwinism is , Mr Berlinski gets right to the point and not a wasted minute

 

[Raining]

I just watched all 3 clips. It boils down to Darwin being like the Football coach and inventor of the game of football. The rest of the biologist are the players trying to move the football to a goal line.

No proof of any links, from one to another.

 

[lforrest]

[SIZE=16pt]Genesis Flood[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Plenty of leaders of modern-day Western churches believe that every detail of every verse in Genesis is literally true. However, this belief is not universally accepted by Jewish and Christian theologians. The ancient Hebrews did not think the same way that modern-day Western people think, and the book of Genesis is of ancient Hebrew origin. So, modern-day theologians take into consideration the way that the ancient Hebrews interpreted Genesis. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Regarding the proper way to interpret ancient Hebrew writings, Christian theologian William Barclay quotes Old Testament scholar Rev. C.J. Ball as saying the following:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]“The Rabbi embodies his lesson in a story, whether parable or allegory or seeming historical narrative; and the last thing he or his disciples would think of is to ask whether the selected persons, events and circumstances which so vividly suggest the doctrine are in themselves real or fictitious. The doctrine is everything; the mode of presentation has no independent value. To make the story the first consideration, and the doctrine it was intended to convey an afterthought as we, with our dry Western literalness, are predisposed to, is to reverse the Jewish order of thinking, and to do unconscious injustice to the authors of many edifying narratives of antiquity.”[1]#_ftn1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Barclay adds, “This is to say that Jewish teachers were more concerned with truth than with fact. They are not interested in the momentary historical events of any story; they are interested only in the eternal truth which the story is designed to illuminate and to convey.”[2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Jewish theologian Gunther Plaut writes, “The contemporary reader familiar with the history and the nature of the text will have to remember that a literal translation of the Torah may lead to grave misconceptions. Even the ancient Jewish sages, who believed that the Torah was a divinely authored book, did not take the text literally.”[/SIZE][3]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Jewish theologian Nahum Sarna writes, “The literalist approach serves to direct attention to those aspects of the narrative that reflect the time and place of its composition, while it tends to obscure the elements that are meaningful and enduring, thus destroying the biblical message and destroying its relevancy.”[4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] Indeed, modern-day Christian clergy don't insist on a strict literal interpretation of every Old Testament verse. For example, Joshua 10:12-13 states the following:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]"At that time Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.” And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] The above verses say that the Sun stood still, reflecting the ancient belief that the Sun revolved around the Earth. We now know that the Earth revolves around the Sun. We understand that the above verses reflect how things appeared to Joshua, and yet we also understand that, if any celestial body stopped moving, then it was the Earth, not the Sun.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] So, if a strict literal interpretation is not applied to a Bible verse, then the verse can still be authoritative and teach a spiritual truth. Although the Sun did not literally stand still in Joshua 10:12-13, that passage still tells us that God is in full control of events, and that God used his omnipotence to help the Israelites defeat the Amorites in combat. It didn't matter which celestial object (if any) actually stood still. What mattered is that the God of Israel was the one responsible for the miracle, and the God of Israel was glorified as a result.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] Regarding the flood story in the book of Genesis, as German science reporter Werner Keller details in his book The Bible As History, plenty of archaeological evidence exists that ancient Mesopotamia was subjected to extensive flooding, with traces of such flooding reaching all the way to the city of Nineveh.[5][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] In 1929, British archaeologist Sir Charles Leonard Woolley was leading an archaeological dig at the ancient Sumerian city of Ur, when Woolley and his workers unexpectedly discovered evidence that the region around Ur had been subjected to a massive flood. Keller writes, “According to Woolley the disaster engulfed an area north-west of the Persian Gulf amounting to 400 miles long and 100 miles wide, looking at the map we should call it today “a local occurrence” – for the inhabitants of the river plains it was however in those days their whole world.”[6][/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt] As seen in Joshua 10:12-13, a story in the Old Testament can contain a detail that is not scientifically accurate because of the perspective of the story-teller, and, yet, the story can still be about an event that actually occurred. Thus, the flood story in Genesis could be about a flood that actually happened even if the perspective of the story-teller was not scientifically accurate. As explained by previously-cited theologians, according to the way that the ancient Hebrews thought, every little detail of a story did not have to be literally true in order for the spiritual lesson of the story to be true.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] Today, plenty of Christians do not accept as being literally true the description in Joshua:12-13 of the Sun standing still. Likewise, plenty of Christians do not accept as being literally true the description in Genesis of the entire Earth being covered by a single flood, because empirical data does not give evidence of a global flood.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=16pt] What all Christians do accept as being literally true are the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus, historical events that took place within a period of three days. Nothing in science does away with those events.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt] So, one does not have to believe that the entire Earth was literally covered by a flood in order for one to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt][1][/SIZE] William Barclay, The Mind of Christ (Harper & Row: 1961), p. 79.


[SIZE=10pt][2][/SIZE] Ibid.


[SIZE=10pt][3][/SIZE] Gunther Plaut, Torah Commentary (Union of American Hebrew Congregations: 1981), p. xx.


[SIZE=10pt][4][/SIZE] Nahum Sarna, Understanding Genesis (Melton Research Center of the Jewish Theological Seminary of America: 1966), p. 66.


[SIZE=10pt][5][/SIZE] Werner Keller, The Bible As History (Barnes & Noble Books: 1995), p. 49.


[SIZE=10pt][6]#_ftnref6 Ibid., p. 48.[/SIZE]

I would sooner think Joshua 10:12-13 is literal than the Gen. Flood. All that would need to happen is for time to slow around the earth relative to everything else. A global flood would take a whole lot of water.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I would sooner think Joshua 10:12-13 is literal than the Gen. Flood. All that would need to happen is for time to slow around the earth relative to everything else. A global flood would take a whole lot of water.

You said .... A global flood would take a whole lot of water.

Earlier I pointed out that 72% of the world is under water right now
Much of the remaining 28% is only a few feet above sea level
So , other than the mountain ranges it would take very little to cover the earth

Most likely the mountains were pushed up as the flood receded
That would explain the same fossils on Everest and Baja Ca.