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Non trins are not christians or Jesus' followers.

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Joyful, Aug 27, 2015.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Member

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    Then you charge scripture with boasting because it claims people are saved in the past tense.

    The truth is you are simply wrong. Claiming to be saved is not boasting, especially when it is true. Being saved now doesn't mean someone has eternal life, it means they are going to eventually inherit eternal life.
     
  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Member

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    You are still not addressing that scripture states people are saved. Is scripture boasting and usurping Jesus' authority?

    2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    To be consistent you have to declare the above statements to be boasting and usurping Jesus' authority.
     
  3. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    so you don't accept Jesus' Lordship?

    Do you refuse to accept Him as the Lord of His followers?
     
  4. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    ewq,

    This is what the scripture says:

    It says the judgment begin with household of God: No one is exempt. Even His people are subject to judgment.
     
  5. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The Barrd has already provided one location. The problem is that you discount anything outside of the gospels, and I strongly suspect anything that can be gleaned from the gospels that would disagree with you would also be thrown out. The NT is full of passages like Titus 2:12-13, but again, with your hermeneutic, you just ignore those inconveniences.


    This it the topic my friend. How could it not be since I am asking you about his identity!? You either don't know the answer to the question I asked, or your answer will reveal a lot about your theology. So again, what is the answer to my question?

    The logic of how Jesus is Lord and Savior matters very much, as many have claimed to be in similar positions, and the Bible even warns of us of those who will do it in his name. If you say that anyone could fill the role of Jesus, then your theology is decidedly not Christian, because it tells me you don't even understand how he accomplished what he accomplished. As James 2:19 says, even the demons know/believe who He is, and tremble. There is something more profound at work when the Bible says believe and confess to be saved (Romans 10:19).
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Member

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    Those questions make no sense in the context of our discussion. You also don't seem to understand that what you think is wrong "boasting about being saved" is not wrong according to scripture which does exactly what you think is wrong but you keep refusing to comment on that so I assume you just don't understand the ramifications of what you are saying.

    And that means I have no interest in continuing this one sided discussion. See ya later :)
     
  7. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    It is clear claiming to be saved is boasting since Jesus is the authority to claim who will be saved or not.

    And I just showed you the verse stating judgment comes to His people's household.
     
  8. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    this thread is about whether non-trins are His followers or not.

    blessings.
     
  9. Dave24

    Dave24 New Member

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    How sad that people (Christians) reached a point where they don't even acknowledge the creator for who he is. Psalm 83:17,18(KJV) clearly shows who God is. Jesus is a separate person...His son...
    Why is it so hard to understand? This is exactly what satan wants! He has succeeded in getting people to reject the Almighty.

    I must admit a lot has been lost in translation of the Scriptures. Even at the time when Jesus preached the gospel it was clear that people already distorted the truth...no wonder that after the apostles died a huge amount of false doctrine infected the Christian faith. Now it's become acceptable and anyone who disagree with it are called cult's or sect's... We should not be shocked by this because satan will do anything to distort the truth. It's up to us to rather seek God's word for the true facts than listen to mainstream views that might be distorted. After all it's God we should worship and not man...
     
  10. Phantasman

    Phantasman New Member

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    Jesus tried to educate us on the heavenly monachy. He said his Father was greater than him, and that is spun with all kinds of counter rhetoric.

    The first time "trinity" was used was by Ignatius. It wasn't propagated as an (Catholic) orthodox thought until Tertulian, 175 years after Jesus physical death.

    It all comes down to who you believe from the stories circulating pre Nicene Creed (325 AD). Apocryphon of John has Jesus saying monarchy.

    BTW: I don't believe the church (Ekklesia) was ever set up by Jesus as an earthly monarchy. Elders and priests have two different functions. And every book of the NT (except Hebrews) has the actions of priests as a threat to what Jesus was teaching. And no one knows who wrote Hebrews, but it reinstalled priesthood (monarchy on earth).
     
  11. Barrd

    Barrd His Humble Servant

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    It seems pretty obvious to me that in order to worship Jesus it is necessary to know Him as God.

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    I'm sure we all know that John's opening remarks are referring to Jesus. He is the Word, or Logos, He was with God in the beginning, and in fact, He was God.

    But take a very good look at that third verse:

    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Now, go to Genesis 1:1

    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    In the beginning, Jesus was with God....in fact, Jesus was God. All things were made by Jesus, and without Jesus was not any thing made that was made.

    So, Who is your Creator?
    Why, none other than the Lord, Jesus Christ, Himself. He is the Good Shepherd, His sheep know Him, and He knows them. If you do not know Him, you are not His sheep, and He doesn't know you.
     
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman New Member

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    The "Word" is truth. Real truth. Jesus said he is the "truth", not God the Father. When you see him you see the truth of the Father, since no man can see the Father.

    John 8 explains the trouble Jesus had convincing the Jews that they were following the wrong God. He even becomes frustrated with them:

    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    The Catholics left out important books to help define the Gospel message, even relying on OT scripture to try and complete it.

    A question to ask yourself is "why would God the Father slaughter 35.000 people for looking into the Arc, yet not a hair did God the Father harm when his son was crucified?".

    Christ said they had been following a God who was a murderer from the beginning. God the Father, Father of Jesus would not give a commandment that he himself would not keep. Which is why Jesus gave 2 commandments of love. Jesus said to love our enemy. Does the God who destroyed his enemies in the OT sound like Jesus Father?

    God the Father, who is perfect, does not create imperfect. That would make him imperfect, which he is not. The world is imperfect. Created by an imperfect God.
     
  13. Born_Again

    Born_Again Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Okay, your last statement is confusing. "The world is imperfect. Created by an imperfect God." First, when God created the Earth, it was perfect. Then MAN sinned and started messing things up. Look at the world around you. The earth (nature) works together in perfect symbiotic harmony until MAN interferes. Then the eco system or whatever you want to call it starts messing up. And yes, in the OT He commanded the slaughter of 35,000 people. But you need to understand that was the old covenant. The NT is the new covenant with man. As for John 8, He wasn't saying they were following the wrong God, He was saying that if they truly followed God and listened to God they would know Jesus was the messiah.

    I fear you may be misinterpreting what you are reading. May I suggest using a different version of the Bible. The KJV is commonly misinterpreted. To you your credit, I wont argue the Catholic bending of the Bible. I agree with that.
     
  14. Phantasman

    Phantasman New Member

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    John 8
    43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
    45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

    Jesus refers to his "word" (truth). And confirms it in 45. The word "devil" is "against God", or in this case "true God" which Jesus was teaching (glorifying).
    The Hebrews never had the Spirit of Truth, never. And in John 8 Jesus says that he is telling them the truth that he hears from his Father, truth that Abraham did not (hear).


    38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
    40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
    41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


    Until the Spirit of the Father could live within man, it merely influenced.

    (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)- John 7

    The Hebrews never had the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. So how could they be led........directly by God? It is a view that takes great prayer to see. The non Canon books follow the Gospel and explain what we miss when we try to go back before Christ to obtain truth.

    As far as interpretations, there are many. Read many myself. They can differ depending on who interpretates. One must ask the Spirit to reveal truth, and it will. Not always the first time, or in a matter we suggest. We must be "open" to truth. The Father` will not lie to us, but will let us believe a lie if we so choose. The path is not as easy as one would believe. I was an Orthodox believer for 35+ years. When the spiritual mind opens, it is a dramatic experience of the soul, and everything seems to make "better" sense, at least in my case.
     
  15. Phantasman

    Phantasman New Member

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  16. Barrd

    Barrd His Humble Servant

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    I'm saying that He created everything that exists.
    He created you. Are you perfect? I think not.

    "Russian dolls"? That's a first for me...
     
  17. Phantasman

    Phantasman New Member

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    If that is your held belief, that's fine. It's Orthodox thinking created by accepting only the Catholic accepted books as truth (66). The very first Canon Bible did not include the Hebrew Scriptures. The Catholics added it 200 years after Christs Ascension. I find what Jesus told John in the Apocryphon of John a more viable truth aligned better with those in the NT. I do not believe the Father makes mistakes. There is no perfection iin this Aeon. Never was. Man was saved from this prison when he transgressed. He accepted the spirit from the tree of life. Before that he was a puppet, a flesh with a soul, just no spirit. The Father is Spirit. Through his perfect spirit our soul is saved.

    My core belief and yours may be the same, in that Jesus Christ is the truth, the way and is true life. How we got here isn't really important. Who we are and become is. When Jesus died, he descended to Hades (the grave) to save those who had died before he came. They even appeared to many, as Gospel scripture relates.Catholics have their version, which Protestants change to their liking. My "theology" differs because I seek beyond the bounds the Catholics set in 325AD, and enforced it with the power of Rome. When Constantine decided to have an all-in-one religion for the Roman Empire, he invited 1800 leaders of various churches throughout the Empire. less than 300 showed up. And even that 300 had issues agreeing. Constantine banished some, like the Arians. The Catholics created a religion that Rome (and the Emperor) could live with. Anything not in the new Nicene Bible was considered heresy, and many good Christians died or were banished because of it. Heresy just means against Catholic.

    There were some 200 Gospels by the end of the first century.Many heard Jesus speak and wrote of the good news. What we have today, is a much smaller part. Have you ever asked yourself why the Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest Bible in the Greek Laanguage, has more books than the Codex Vaticanus (the Catholic Bible)? Why some scriptures are missing and some added between the two?

    And if you still don't see it, read (WIKI if you like) about William Tyndale and John Wycliffe, The two Catholics who translated the Bible from Latin to English/German, and were killed by decree of the Pope for doing so. The Codex Vaticanus was translated into Latin and held hostage as the only translation for 800 years. Surprisingly, that was the same time the Dark Ages occurred. .

    Paul told us of hidden truth.
     
  18. Barrd

    Barrd His Humble Servant

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    I think how we got here is very important.
    I think it is vital to know Jesus as God and Creator. It is vital to know Who you are worshiping and why.
     
  19. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Man was saved when he transgressed? Transgressed against who exactly? He accepted the spirit from the tree of life? Before he transgressed, or after it was forbidden to him? What am I detecting here? Are you saying the 'Lord' of the old testament, the 'God' of the old testament, is someone other than the Father of Jesus? Lucifer/Satan? Are you for real? Sorry dude, too weird for me. Oh, and I don't count myself a trinitarian, but I do believe Jesus is deity and worthy of our worship.
     
  20. Barrd

    Barrd His Humble Servant

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    I think it was the part about how mankind were puppets, flesh without souls, etc....waay too weird for me.
    I probably should have backed away when it was "Russian dolls"...

    I gotta ask you...if you believe Jesus is deity (God), how are you not a trinitarian?
    This is just for my curiosity, you understand...
     
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