Objections answered

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1st is a Protestant proposition
Then a misconception of the Catholic position then my response

1) You are saved by faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

1) You are saved by faith plus works.

My Response:

eph 2 does not refer to salvation, the word saved does not mean salvation, it means redemption, the life, death(blood) and resurrection of Christ whereby He merits eternal life!

salvation is by grace thru faith and works Mk 16:16 faith and baptism etc

Redemption: work of Christ obtaining by His merits grace for His church!

Justification: our entering into the new covenant life of grace by faith and baptism. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Sanctification: the life of grace obtained in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Gal 5:6
1 Tim 2:15 2 tim 2:22 and 3:10 faith and charity
1 cor 13 faith, hope, and charity, greatest is not faith but charity.
Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: dying in this state of grace that sanctifys. Matt 24:13

2) All who rely on observing the law (commandments) are under a curse (Galations 3:10).

2) Obedience to the commandments is a condition for salvation.

My response:

works of the law does not refer to the moral law or the jurisdictional law but only to the ceremonial law which was fulfilled and nailed to the cross, the other two were given to the church

the moral law or moral authority

the jurisdictional law or governing authority

and also the new spiritual law of grace in the life of the sacraments

obedience of faith rom 1:5 and obedience to the moral law are required Matt 5:21
And texts like 1 cor 6:9 even specific commandments eph 6:2

3) Salvation occurs at the moment you believe the Gospel (Ephesians 1:13). (see Romans 10:9-10 on how to accept Salvation)

3) Salvation is a process from baptism through purgatory.

My response:

If what you teach was true you would negate the word of God: salvation by faith is directly opposed to scripture rom 13:11 for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 1 cor 13:2 all faith avails nothing, Phil 1:29 not called to faith alone, and James.

4) Jesus purifies sin (Hebrews 1:3).

4) Purgatory purifies sin.

My response:

This verse means by His death and blood He obtained the merits to purge our sins,
But it does not exclude the possibility of this work being done after death. 1 cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Actually not quite true, sin is remitted by the mercy of God, purgatory is for the punishment due to sin or the justice of God.
If a boy breaks a window his father forgives him on repentance (mercy) but the boy will have to earn money to pay for the window (justice)

5) You can know for sure you are saved (1 John 5:13).

5) You are condemned if you claim to be saved.

My response:

We are redeemed, justified, and in the process of sanctification in this life but not actually saved, (salvation) until we die in Christ in a state of Grace, friendship with God. Matt 24:13

6) The sacrifice of Jesus is finished (John 19:30).

6) The sacrifice of Jesus continues in daily Mass.

My response:

Not accurate:
Neither is true, it is finished does not refer to the sacrifice of of Christ or the so called finished work of Christ. See below
And the sacrifice of Jesus does not continue in the mass, He does not suffer and bleed or die in the mass, conversely the mass is the very same once for all sacrifice of Christ OFFERED to the father in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

Jn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The Passover
(The new covenant Passover sacrifice of Christ)


The cup refers to the Passover
The sacrifice prefigured the sacrifice of Christ
Christ was celebrating the Passover and changing it into the new covenant Passover in his own body and blood
Began in the last supper with the psalm then to the garden and ended with his death in the cross with the words commanded to be said at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice by the high priest “IT IS FINISHED”!!!

jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Notice the connection to his betrayal and death

1 cor 5:6-8
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast

but something is missing we have to eat the lamb

jn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Then a misconception of the Catholic position then my response
If you are trying to justify Catholic theology, it is a no-win proposition. Even the Bible terms have been mistranslated and misunderstood by the RCC.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you are trying to justify Catholic theology, it is a no-win proposition. Even the Bible terms have been mistranslated and misunderstood by the RCC.

so you think saved equals salvation
Eph 2

what other contradictions do you see?
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you are trying to justify Catholic theology, it is a no-win proposition. Even the Bible terms have been mistranslated and misunderstood by the RCC.

that’s kind of silly since the church was founded by Christ upon peter before the New Testament was written, and the church wrote the New Testament and cannonized the whole bible and only the church has the valid authority to interpret the scriptures
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
that’s kind of silly since the church was founded by Christ upon peter before the New Testament was written, and the church wrote the New Testament and cannonized the whole bible and only the church has the valid authority to interpret the scriptures
1. The Church was founded by Christ. TRUE.
2. The Church was not based upon Peter. TRUE
3. The Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ. TRUE
4. The Catholic Bible is not the Bible of Christ. TRUE
5. The Catholic Church does not have the authority to interpret Scripture. TRUE

If the Catholic Bible is not the Bible of Christ, the whole argument falls down. Proof that it is not the Bible of Christ? The Hebrew Old Testament (24 books) EXCLUDED all the so-called Deuterocanonical books.

Jesus said that the Hebrew Bible consisted of (1) the Law (5 books), (2) the Prophets (8 books), and (3) the Psalms (11 books). That is just 24 books.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1. The Church was founded by Christ. TRUE.
2. The Church was not based upon Peter. TRUE
3. The Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ. TRUE
4. The Catholic Bible is not the Bible of Christ. TRUE
5. The Catholic Church does not have the authority to interpret Scripture. TRUE

If the Catholic Bible is not the Bible of Christ, the whole argument falls down. Proof that it is not the Bible of Christ? The Hebrew Old Testament (24 books) EXCLUDED all the so-called Deuterocanonical books.

Jesus said that the Hebrew Bible consisted of (1) the Law (5 books), (2) the Prophets (8 books), and (3) the Psalms (11 books). That is just 24 books.

why is peter even mentioned? Matt 16:18

Why are the keys (authority) given to Peter personally?

Keys of authority! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

Only the one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors and those members of Christ by faith and baptism United with them, the communion of the saints
Jn 16:10 matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23
Jn 10:16

Ephesians 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The office of apostle that has the three fold office, to teach: to govern the church: and to sanctify by the sacraments or sacred oaths (promises) of the father! Acts 2:38-39 with ez 36:25-27 Heb 8:6



———-

Jn 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jn 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Matt 5:14
Ye (the apostles/ the church) are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
(There is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors!) Jn 10:16

——————

Only Peter and the apostles and their successors have the teaching authority of Christ with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit! Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

————

Fathers have care of their children, spiritual fathers care for our souls!

Pope, papa, father, yes spiritual father!

Isa 22 father

Christ is the head of the church!
Peter is appointed by Christ as the head of the church on earth!
Supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful!

Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:

Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Matt 10:2
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!

Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:

Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:

Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:

Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 5 authority of the apostles verified by them being stricken dead by God verifying Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and the apostles have the light of the Holy Spirit!


1 Tim 1 Paul is Timothy’s spiritual father.
1 Jn 2:1 little children are adult Christians, John is their spiritual father.

Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)

———

The successors of Moses having kingdom authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Mt 23 was taken from them Mt 21:43 and given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: Mt 16:18 Mt 18:18 and Jesus says this power and authority is to be obeyed!

Rom 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
(If it applies to civil authority, how much more to religious authority)

Mt 28:18-20
all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end!

Lk 10:16 He who hears you hears me...
(The apostles and their successors)

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Without a central authority there can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

Hierarchy is the nature of authority!

God always establishes order in obedience to hierarchical authority!

The angelic order!
The church order!
The family order!
The civil order!

All require obedience to hierarchical authority!

The church is not a democracy but a kingdom!

They are not God, not the king, not the founder!
But equal with Christ yes!
As far as roles go, Jesus is the head of the church, Peter is the head of the church on earth Mt 16:18 and leader of the apostles Mt 10:2 administers of the kingdom in the absence of the king. Acts 1:9 Jn 21:17 and Peter, the apostles and their successors are sent in the same way as Jesus!

Jn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
They are God breathed!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
 

Reggie Belafonte

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2018
5,805
2,896
113
63
Brisbane
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Most Protestants claim that the RCC promotes a works based doctrine, now I got an old RC Bible and in the doctrines I found that such is not true at all.
I went to Bible study in the Lutheran Church mainly and I put this to the Priest and he only dribbled on with rote and then ran away, would not debate it at all with me truly. but then again I have met many a RC that do as the Prots claim in fact. so what idiots they are and why is it so I asked well I came to this conclusion, that their are Priest that are possessed by demons, just have to look around and see all the child molesters that are about and now promoting queers and all full on in every denomination is rife. not to mention the cover ups stink like hell.
I have seen RC Priest preaching total rubbish as well many a time and the QLD Arch Bishop was shocking what a blight he is.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why are the keys (authority) given to Peter personally?
Here's a secret... He wasn't the only one that got they keys! With the keys come authority right? Read Mat 18:18.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Most Protestants claim that the RCC promotes a works based doctrine, now I got an old RC Bible and in the doctrines I found that such is not true at all.
I went to Bible study in the Lutheran Church mainly and I put this to the Priest and he only dribbled on with rote and then ran away, would not debate it at all with me truly. but then again I have met many a RC that do as the Prots claim in fact. so what idiots they are and why is it so I asked well I came to this conclusion, that their are Priest that are possessed by demons, just have to look around and see all the child molesters that are about and now promoting queers and all full on in every denomination is rife. not to mention the cover ups stink like hell.
I have seen RC Priest preaching total rubbish as well many a time and the QLD Arch Bishop was shocking what a blight he is.
There has been infiltration into the seminary by communists homo’s modernists etc for subversion and Christian disolutionment
Demoralization etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reggie Belafonte

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Here's a secret... He wasn't the only one that got they keys! With the keys come authority right? Read Mat 18:18.

only Peter has the keys authority over the universal church
The apostles have authority to bind etc. if they are in union with peter who is in union with Christ

and this also applies to all their successors

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 acts 9 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jesus Christ does not abandon His holy bride! Matt 28:19-20