Once in Heaven, can you lose your salvation?

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Stranger

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Lucifer was created perfect and sinless. Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless. Both were in the presence God. Yet they chose against God and fell.

Once we as Christians get to Heaven, how is our state any different? Can we sin against God even after we are there?

Stranger
 

Davy

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Those that are dead in Christ are free from sin. They can sin no more (Romans 6:7).

But the unbelieving in Christ's future Millennium reign are shown with the option to sin by refusing to come up to Jerusalem year to year to worship The KING, with the penalty being no rain upon their lands (Zechariah 14).
 

DPMartin

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Lucifer was created perfect and sinless. Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless. Both were in the presence God. Yet they chose against God and fell.

Once we as Christians get to Heaven, how is our state any different? Can we sin against God even after we are there?

Stranger

why is Satan and friends not allowed in Heaven nor are they to be restored to Heaven, and why are the sons of men restorable to the Life Adam had before they ate of the tree?

where A&E in the Presence of the Almighty? men dwell in earth not heaven, and it was the Voice of the Lord that walked into the garden.
also Jesus says the Kingdom is within a man.


The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Luk 10:10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.


you should read and find out just when someone is in the Kingdom of Heaven seeing the scriptures teach that God dwells within and God is also in Heaven.

Jesus has repeatedly said that the Father was with Him and within Him as He was with the Father and in the Father. so for one if you haven't received the Life of Christ then you are nether in Heaven nor is Heaven in you.


anyway the clue is who has seen the face of God and who hasn't. also just what is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and why is that unforgivable?
 

APAK

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Lucifer was created perfect and sinless. Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless. Both were in the presence God. Yet they chose against God and fell.

Once we as Christians get to Heaven, how is our state any different? Can we sin against God even after we are there?

Stranger

Stranger:

This is not a subject discussed in a 101-basic class, it is at the 601 level. A ‘heavy’ subject that scripture does not effectively and explicitly address in any depth.

I believe we cannot ‘sin’ in heaven because our free will is permanently curtailed, because we chose to do this already, as it is now curtailed to a lesser degree while in this earth body. The soul will be transformed to a new one in our glorified bodies, capable of fully partaking of the divine nature of God, as Jesus does today. This prevents any ‘sin.’

One way to address this OP is to re-examine what happened to Jesus, his state on earth, and how and what transformed in him for the earth to the heavens. Of course, this will bring up the issue of who was Jesus, at his birth and then at his baptism, and then in heaven. Folks will have to eventually know these things although I believe that some has belief models they cherish above scripture that will prohibit a true examination and analysis of it.

We become a NEW creature – with a new soul and spirit nature. We will think quite differently. We will become as saints just like Jesus, with his mind. We will synch and be in harmony with Jesus and the angels. All heavenly creatures will be engulfed in the same spirit and powered by the same divine power of God.

(2Pe 1:3) His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

(2Pe 1:4) by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (ALL ESV)

This divine state, Adam and Eve never achieved, because they never partook of the tree of life.

I John 3 seems to allude to the fact that we will be like Jesus upon our transformation into the heavens.

(1Jn 3:2) Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

(1Jn 3:3) And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

The title of the OP is a little confusing. As a saint in heaven means we already have been saved into our new bodies. What type of other salvation is there that can be lost? Maybe the OP title meant that the salvation lost could be eternal life. So, then the question becomes, can we lose our immortality?

Our immortality and eternal life in heaven is dependent on the power and spirit of God being available and constantly nourishing us. This is most probably impossible, and scripture does not address this area.

This is a ‘tough’ subject of discussion. I for one am revising and refining my knowledge of it when I can, gained from the knowledge of others and as the spirit leads me.

Bless you,


APAK
 

Helen

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Lucifer was created perfect and sinless. Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless. Both were in the presence God. Yet they chose against God and fell.

Once we as Christians get to Heaven, how is our state any different? Can we sin against God even after we are there?

Stranger

EXCELLENT question... :)

I know what I believe...but I will wait to see who posts first.
 

Helen

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Well here I am. I've read the ones who posted.
What do you think about your OP @Stranger
Intersting :)

Me personally, I believe that because we are, and will be " In Christ" there will not ever be rebellion again in Heaven. Made One, is made One.

Most people believe that when God said " Let us make man in our image and likeness, that Adam was "the man"...I do not believe that, never have.
I believe that God in fact was saying .."Let us make man....in our image and likeness and lets start here with making Adam.."
That to me was just the beginning...He has been doing it and refining it through Abraham, Moses, David, Paul..and all who have followed making ONE corporate man. At the end the Man/Bride/Church/Body...will be one breath with God Himself. Perfect unity.
We obviously think of ourselves as we are now...we could never do it, never stay true, never not fail and fall.
I believe after the Fire has done it's work...there is a sealing.
If not, it has all been one big joke!!! :eek:

Scary thought Stranger...good post. :)
 

Godssrvr

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Ephesians 2:5 explains even while we were "dead in sins" (of the flesh), we were "quickened" with Christ (in spirit). Salvation is a spiritual truth that has nothing to do with our mortal flesh which will one day be glorified. Our spirit is "born of God" and has no sin nature like we have in our flesh. We will not sin because we will be like Him, with only the divine nature.

1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

Stranger

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Let me confirm to all that in no way will we ever be able to lose our salvation once we are in heaven. No way will we lose our eternal life which is in Jesus Christ. My motive for this subject was in reading the 'once saved always saved' thread and the amount of people who believe you can lose your salvation. I do not believe once one is a believer that they can lose their salvation.

In thinking on this subject it appears to me that if you can't lose it there, then you can't lose it here. Why? Because everything that God has accomplished for us in securing our salvation, has been done on this side. Everything that keeps us securely in Heaven is that we are in Christ. But when did we get in Christ. Here.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Those that are dead in Christ are free from sin. They can sin no more (Romans 6:7).

But the unbelieving in Christ's future Millennium reign are shown with the option to sin by refusing to come up to Jerusalem year to year to worship The KING, with the penalty being no rain upon their lands (Zechariah 14).

True. "For he that is dead is freed from sin". (Rom. 6:7) But that is talking about us here and now. We are dead in Christ. (6:6) says, "our old man is crucified with him...." We still sin here, yet we are dead in Christ. Therefore we can rest assured we cannot lose our salvation in heaven for our old man is dead in Christ. But if we were dead in Christ here, then neither can we lose it here.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Stranger:

This is not a subject discussed in a 101-basic class, it is at the 601 level. A ‘heavy’ subject that scripture does not effectively and explicitly address in any depth.

I believe we cannot ‘sin’ in heaven because our free will is permanently curtailed, because we chose to do this already, as it is now curtailed to a lesser degree while in this earth body. The soul will be transformed to a new one in our glorified bodies, capable of fully partaking of the divine nature of God, as Jesus does today. This prevents any ‘sin.’

One way to address this OP is to re-examine what happened to Jesus, his state on earth, and how and what transformed in him for the earth to the heavens. Of course, this will bring up the issue of who was Jesus, at his birth and then at his baptism, and then in heaven. Folks will have to eventually know these things although I believe that some has belief models they cherish above scripture that will prohibit a true examination and analysis of it.

We become a NEW creature – with a new soul and spirit nature. We will think quite differently. We will become as saints just like Jesus, with his mind. We will synch and be in harmony with Jesus and the angels. All heavenly creatures will be engulfed in the same spirit and powered by the same divine power of God.

(2Pe 1:3) His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

(2Pe 1:4) by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. (ALL ESV)

This divine state, Adam and Eve never achieved, because they never partook of the tree of life.

I John 3 seems to allude to the fact that we will be like Jesus upon our transformation into the heavens.

(1Jn 3:2) Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

(1Jn 3:3) And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

The title of the OP is a little confusing. As a saint in heaven means we already have been saved into our new bodies. What type of other salvation is there that can be lost? Maybe the OP title meant that the salvation lost could be eternal life. So, then the question becomes, can we lose our immortality?

Our immortality and eternal life in heaven is dependent on the power and spirit of God being available and constantly nourishing us. This is most probably impossible, and scripture does not address this area.

This is a ‘tough’ subject of discussion. I for one am revising and refining my knowledge of it when I can, gained from the knowledge of others and as the spirit leads me.

Bless you,


APAK

It is a heavy subject that I hope leads to assurance to all that they cannot ever lose their salvation or eternal life in Heaven or here. Because what secures us there secures us here also. We are in Christ. And we got in Christ here.

I'm not sure about the will being curtailed. I had a thread on that subject a while back. Without a will, we would be robots and not persons. But our will must always and will be in line with God's will. The angels that did not fall still have a will. But they are not in Christ, but they are the elect angels.

Yes, (1 John 3:2) is a good example. "...now are we the sons of God...." It has been accomplished. When? When we came to Christ here.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Well here I am. I've read the ones who posted.
What do you think about your OP @Stranger
Intersting :)

Me personally, I believe that because we are, and will be " In Christ" there will not ever be rebellion again in Heaven. Made One, is made One.

Most people believe that when God said " Let us make man in our image and likeness, that Adam was "the man"...I do not believe that, never have.
I believe that God in fact was saying .."Let us make man....in our image and likeness and lets start here with making Adam.."
That to me was just the beginning...He has been doing it and refining it through Abraham, Moses, David, Paul..and all who have followed making ONE corporate man. At the end the Man/Bride/Church/Body...will be one breath with God Himself. Perfect unity.
We obviously think of ourselves as we are now...we could never do it, never stay true, never not fail and fall.
I believe after the Fire has done it's work...there is a sealing.
If not, it has all been one big joke!!! :eek:

Scary thought Stranger...good post. :)

Indeed it would be a scary thought. And to me the thought that one could lose it here is equally scary. Yes, I agree, 'in Christ' is the key. We will forever be 'in Christ'. That secures us there and here.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Ephesians 2:5 explains even while we were "dead in sins" (of the flesh), we were "quickened" with Christ (in spirit). Salvation is a spiritual truth that has nothing to do with our mortal flesh which will one day be glorified. Our spirit is "born of God" and has no sin nature like we have in our flesh. We will not sin because we will be like Him, with only the divine nature.

1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Adam and Eve had no sin nature either till they fell. I believe we will have a human nature and divine nature. Just as Jesus has.

I agree. (Eph. 2:5) "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." We cannot lose our salvation in Heaven because we are in Christ and already crucified and risen with Him. All of which occurred here when we placed faith in Christ.

I agree with (1 John 3:9) also. Yet he is talking about us here and now. Though we sin he says we cannot sin because we are born of God and his seed remaineth. And when did this occur? Here, when we placed faith in Christ. So since (1 John 3:9) assures us of our eternal salvation in Heaven then it also assures those, who have come to Christ, of our salvation here.

Stranger
 

Dcopymope

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Lucifer was created perfect and sinless. Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless. Both were in the presence God. Yet they chose against God and fell.

Once we as Christians get to Heaven, how is our state any different? Can we sin against God even after we are there?

Stranger

I don't know about going to heaven since its never explicitly stated that any of us are going anywhere except the promised new earth. Its not that the "glorified" bodies we are to receive will in of itself magically make us sinless. The "glorified" bodies really ain't that much of a mystery since Jesus Christ compared it to that of an angel. If such a body didn't make Satan sinless who was the angel that covered Gods throne, then a similar body for us won't do any good either. In every description of this body I can see, its "incorruption" or "perfection" is always in relation to it being immortal like an angel, not sinless. We are seen as "sinless" for no other reason but Jesus Christ destroying sin, not because of how we are or will be made. This will be the only difference that will matter, because he is the sole reason why this current world will not even come to mind in the new heaven and earth. The only "sinless" being that ever has or will exist is God. There is none like him and never will be, "glorified" or not.
 
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APAK

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It is a heavy subject that I hope leads to assurance to all that they cannot ever lose their salvation or eternal life in Heaven or here. Because what secures us there secures us here also. We are in Christ. And we got in Christ here.

I'm not sure about the will being curtailed. I had a thread on that subject a while back. Without a will, we would be robots and not persons. But our will must always and will be in line with God's will. The angels that did not fall still have a will. But they are not in Christ, but they are the elect angels.

Yes, (1 John 3:2) is a good example. "...now are we the sons of God...." It has been accomplished. When? When we came to Christ here.

Stranger

Stranger:
Sorry for the confusion. Let me make it clearer as best I can..

'Curtailment' of will just means that we have already and willingly (with our 'free-will') yielded or committed our will to follow God through faith. We have leaned to God for our lives, away from self and the world.

And of course in times of weakness our soulish will and mind wants to go its own way again. Because we have curtailed our will to God already, our will will always swing back and yield to God again. If fact our free- will becomes 'more curtailed' as we mature and walk in the spirit over time. Our will is then more in alignment with the will of God. I do not consider myself a robot as this process of transformation to a true alignment of wills continues. We never lose our will during this process.

In contrast, the free-will is 'not curtailed' open-ended, when its in the status quo or default natural position we were born in, and we have never yielded our will to God, only to self and the world. This is the in-regenerated man.

I hope you can understand....it is just renewing our minds completely to the mind of Christ....it can take some time to see that this is not becoming a robot.

To one that is 'lost' this writing would seem like we are to be like the Borg collective. Man I want my free-will back..etc

It is none of that...

Bless you,


APAK
 

Windmillcharge

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Can we sin against God even after we are there?
Will we want to?
We have experienced life as sinners, we have never experienced life as 'perfect' being.
I think the contrast between what we were and what we will be, will be great enough that we will not want to return to what we once were.
Don't forget that it is not just the change in ourselfs but we will also be in the prescence of God and of Jesus.
Will we realy want to leave there prescence?
 

Godssrvr

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Adam and Eve had no sin nature either till they fell. I believe we will have a human nature and divine nature. Just as Jesus has.

We do have a flesh nature and a divine nature as Christians. All sins we commit are in the flesh only, and the flesh is dead to God. We live for Him only through the "new man" which was created "in Christ".

Eternal security is not a "heavy" subject. It has been made heavy by man. It's actually the basic gospel of salvation which is eternal and rests in the "simplicity that is in Christ".

2 Corinthians 11:1-4
1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
 

APAK

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We do have a flesh nature and a divine nature as Christians. All sins we commit are in the flesh only, and the flesh is dead to God. We live for Him only through the "new man" which was created "in Christ".

Eternal security is not a "heavy" subject. It has been made heavy by man. It's actually the basic gospel of salvation which is eternal and rests in the "simplicity that is in Christ".

2 Corinthians 11:1-4
1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Godssrvr: You have wandered off subject a bit, I believe. The OP is not about eternal security here just on earth. It is about it's application in the heavens. That is the twist that can make this subject difficult to comprehend, as you have to first understand why you have eternal salvation here. It also makes you think about your relationship with Christ and the angels in the heavens. If the spiritual communication process for example is the same...what is the 'new person' like...I don't think you can just broad blush the subject even though the answer remains the same, that eternal life is still assured. By going through this exercise you can see that we will be just like Christ, and having his mind, riding on the spirit or power of God in fullness...or the way 'open.' We do not experience that today, We are not aligned with the will of God and the mind of Christ today, as we will in our new bodies. And still we are assured eternal life here and up in the heavens.

One direst question in the OP is, how is our spiritual state different in the heavens..this begs some analysis work in its self....and of course it will be different that ensures us not to lose eternal life.

Bless you,

APAK
 
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Stranger

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I don't know about going to heaven since its never explicitly stated that any of us are going anywhere except the promised new earth. Its not that the "glorified" bodies we are to receive will in of itself magically make us sinless. The "glorified" bodies really ain't that much of a mystery since Jesus Christ compared it to that of an angel. If such a body didn't make Satan sinless who was the angel that covered Gods throne, then a similar body for us won't do any good either. In every description of this body I can see, its "incorruption" or "perfection" is always in relation to it being immortal like an angel, not sinless. We are seen as "sinless" for no other reason but Jesus Christ destroying sin, not because of how we are or will be made. This will be the only difference that will matter, because he is the sole reason why this current world will not even come to mind in the new heaven and earth. The only "sinless" being that ever has or will exist is God. There is none like him and never will be, "glorified" or not.

(John 14:2-3) "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

(John 17:24) "Father,I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:..."

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Stranger:
Sorry for the confusion. Let me make it clearer as best I can..

'Curtailment' of will just means that we have already and willingly (with our 'free-will') yielded or committed our will to follow God through faith. We have leaned to God for our lives, away from self and the world.

And of course in times of weakness our soulish will and mind wants to go its own way again. Because we have curtailed our will to God already, our will will always swing back and yield to God again. If fact our free- will becomes 'more curtailed' as we mature and walk in the spirit over time. Our will is then more in alignment with the will of God. I do not consider myself a robot as this process of transformation to a true alignment of wills continues. We never lose our will during this process.

In contrast, the free-will is 'not curtailed' open-ended, when its in the status quo or default natural position we were born in, and we have never yielded our will to God, only to self and the world. This is the in-regenerated man.

I hope you can understand....it is just renewing our minds completely to the mind of Christ....it can take some time to see that this is not becoming a robot.

To one that is 'lost' this writing would seem like we are to be like the Borg collective. Man I want my free-will back..etc

It is none of that...

Bless you,


APAK

Yes, similar to the Son, Jesus Christ having a will, and God the Father, having a will. (Mark 14:36) "And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." It was Jesus will at this time for the Father to take this cup away from Him. But He always submitted to the Father's will.

Stranger