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Once Saved Always Saved (Osas) Is It Supported By God's Holy Word? Pt. 1

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Eccl.12:13, Oct 10, 2010.

  1. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    .


    There is an doctrine where people believe once they profess with their mouth, believe with their heart and become baptized in the name of Jesus Christ they are saved and nothing they do will cause them to loose their salvation. This belief is sometimes known as Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). Well let’s use just a little common sense and a lot of scripture to see if their claim is actually supported by God’s holy word!



    Who Gets in and Who Doesn’t

    Let’s look at just a few scriptures and rely on God given common sense to see just how impossible the OSAS doctrine is.

    Let’s read who will enter God’s kingdom, when they find out, and how this information is revealed;

    Rev.21
    [2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Now this is what we all look forward to; entering New Jerusalem and eternal life is the promise God says He will give to all that obey Him. Let’s continue;

    [7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    [10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    Now let’s read who inherits all things and is allowed to enter this city and who does not;

    [27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    So only those whose names are written in God’s book of life are permitted to enter.

    Now let’s read the fate of those whose name is not found written in God’s book of life;

    Rev.20
    [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    ALL of the dead were judged based upon what was written in the books. Notice also they were judged according to their WORKS!!! No mention of faith… (Another lesson) Let’s continue;

    [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    So whosever name is NOT found in God’s book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

    Let’s do a quick review;

    God’s word says ONLY those whose name is in His book will enter into His holy city. Rev.21:27

    Anyone who is NOT found in God’s book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev.20:15

    You do not know if your name is in God’s book of life UNTIL the book is opened and your name is read. Rev.20:12,15, Rev.21:27

    Now let’s turn for a moment to common sense to figure out another fact;

    What will be the fate of a person that dies while their name is still written in God’s book of life? Before answering understand this, once you are dead that is it. Let’s quickly read the condition of the dead;

    Eccl.9
    [5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    [6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    So a dead person cannot change their fate once they die. Common sense right?

    With that said, a person that dies and their name is written in God’s book of life WILL receive the promise of entering New Jerusalem and eternal life.

    Think about it! To die with your name written in God’s book of life……can a person get any more saved than that? Of course not! Now what it take to get your name in that book is a question that will be addressed in a moment. But for now let’s look at the flip side;

    Is it possible to have your name removed from God‘s book? Is it actually possible for someone to do something that will cause them to loose their salvation? Let’s think about this for a second. What if it were possible for a persons name to be removed from God’s book and they died before their name is replaced? Can their name be replaced? What is their fate? If it were not possible for a name to be removed, would there even be a discussion about it in the bible? Let’s search God’s word for such a discussion.



    You name is either in God’s book or out!

    Let’s read a conversation Moses had with God after returning from receiving the commandments. What we are about to read is really a plea to God for the wrong the people had done;

    Exod.32
    [30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
    [31] And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

    Now let’s read Moses plea to the Lord;

    [32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

    Moses plea to God was that his name be removed from the book of life. Now did God say that was something that was not possible? On the contrary! Let’s read what thus said the Lord;

    [33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    Notice God did not say it was impossible for name to be removed, He said quite the opposite!

    Now I know this was spoken in the OT and some may think it was only for those of that age, so let’s search God’s word to see if someone other than an OT figure spoke of blotting names out of God’s book of life;

    Rev.3
    [5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Well there you have it! Not only will names be blotted out of God’s book of life…..it will be Jesus Christ doing it!!!!

    So it IS possible for a name to be removed from God’s book of life! And what is it that will cause a name to be removed? Sin!!! And what does God say sin is?

    “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

    So a name that is written in God’s book of life is NOT permanent! And if that is the case, salvation is NOT permanent! God tells us the one thing that will cause a name to be removed is breaking His laws, or SIN!!!

    So a person can stop 'sinning' or breaking God's laws or.....they can continue to break them and possibly find their name removed from God's book.

    Either you are in His book or NOT! The choice is yours based on your actions!

    Now let’s go back to using common sense for a minute. If breaking God’s laws causes one to have their name removed from His book of life, shouldn’t keeping His laws cause your name to remain?

    Common sense right?

    Now I’m sure there will be some that try to refute this by quoting different scriptures, mostly from the writings of Paul, or not believe it at all, but the fact of the scriptures remain.

    A NAME CAN BE REMOVED FROM GOD’S BOOK OF LIFE!!

    Now let’s read some other scriptures further supporting what we have just read. Continued in Pt.2.


    .


     
  2. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Scripture is clear that faith in Jesus Christ alone is how one receives eternal life.

    All who are born are in the Book of Life, at least, that would be the reasonable conclusion that God's word should bring one to.

    The example of Israel in the wilderness should be good enough, seeing as they did not enter into His rest because of unbelief.

    Notice that? They were unbelievers.

    And see David's plea:

    Psalm 69:16-22

    He asks that his adversaries be blotted from the book of life...how did they get there?

    The example of overcomers should be examined a little closer as well...what is overcoming, if not faith in Christ?

    And please explain how one could be said to have eternal life, if they can lose (not loose) it?



    John 20:31 (King James Version)


    [sup]31[/sup]But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


    (how eternal life is acquired)





    1 John 5:13 (King James Version)


    [sup]13[/sup]These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


    (after eternal life is acquired)


    And how does one overcome?





    1 John 5


    [sup]1[/sup]Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    [sup]2[/sup]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

    [sup]3[/sup]For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    [sup]4[/sup]For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [sup]5[/sup]Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?



    It's really quite simple: faith in Christ which leads to be born again.

    Keeping the commandments is something possible for only those who are born of God.

    And I didn't have to use one quote from Paul, but can rest in the words of the beloved disciple John, whom the Lord loved.

    And the Lord would not have led John to write something untrue.


    I don't think John would have recommended salvation by law-keeping, but as is his wont, faith in Christ alone.

    GTY

     
  3. a3m24ie

    a3m24ie New Member

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    I've come to learn that salvation is not a one time thing, it's an endurance thing... The Bible says "He who endures to the end will be saved" MANY times... So just stay faithful--don't worry about "Will I fall away?" just love God and live for Him! :) But also never get confident in your "prayer of salvation" by "accepting Jesus as your Savior"... Jesus is your savior whether you accept Him or not! But He can't do any saving if you're living life your own way. It's all about Him.
     
  4. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Endurance, or, perseverence is an indication of saving faith, whereas departing from the faith is an indication of an easy-believism salvation, brought about by a limited understanding of the gospel and a reliance upon syllogistic faith.

    I agree, those who by the internal witness of the Holy Spirit are confident of their salvation should not and will not, I believe, go around in a state of fear that they will somehow offend God to the point where He will do that which He promises not to do...leave and forsake them.

    I strongly disagree with this statement.

    If one does not accept Jesus, they have rejected Him.

    GTY
     
  5. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    Let's read the word of God to see if faith and faith ONLY is all that is needed.....

    James 2
    [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    So, if you truly believe in the word of God, it takes MORE than just faith to receive eternal life!

    James tells us it takes 'works' also. Let's read another....

    Rom.10
    [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    This is true....but WAIT!!!! There is more. Let's read....

    [13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    True again...but it still takes more.....

    [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

    So in order to believe you need to hear God's word. And for that you need someone sent by GOD!

    Now even after receiving God's true word there is yet MORE that needs to be done. Let's read....

    [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    So once you hear the word of God and believe in the word of God you must OBEY the word of God.

    Now let's prove this. Let's read.....

    Rev.20
    [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Notice HOW these are judged.... by their WORKS!!!

    So James was correct!

    James 2
    [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Faith alone will NOT grant you eternal life....that is if you truly believe in the word of God!


    .


     
  6. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    James shows our walk before men, whereas Paul shows our walk before God.

    Two entirely different issues.

    If you would read James again, keeping this in mind, it will be painfully clear that James speaks of temporal living, i.e., holding your tongue.




    Lets look at the scripture you present to strengthen your position.


    James says "faith without works is dead...", which is a far cry from "you must keep the law to be saved."

    That is what you are saying, isn't it? That you must keep the law in order to be saved, or to remain saved?



    Are you sure this is the scripture you wanted to present?

    Are the preachers doing their preaching to remain saved...to do works?

    Or are they sent by God? Which would place the means of salvation, the hearing of the word, back into the hands of God, and not man.

    Not to mention that it is God Who gave us the word (of life) by which faith comes.



    Back up a bit...not, as you say, "you must OBEY the word of God."

    But, "YOU MUST OBEY THE GOSPEL."

    See the difference? The word of God covers a whole lot of ground, whereas the gospel is very simple, and that is found here in simplistic terms:



    1 Corinthians 15


    [sup]1[/sup]Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    [sup]2[/sup]By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    [sup]3[/sup]For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [sup]4[/sup]And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


    We need to do what Paul said...keep this in our memory. When we get to the point in which our works contribute to the work of Christ, we are adding to the gospel which needs to be obeyed.

    We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works...not by them.


    How does this prove we are saved by works?

    They are indeed judged by their works...because they are dead!

    Where are Christians called dead after salvation?


    Of course he was, he was directed by the Spirit of God to write this epistle.





    I believe the word of God without question.

    And the overwhelming teaching of scripture is that salvation was brought about by God at all times in the history of man.

    There shall be no flesh justified by the works of the law.

    GTY
     
  7. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    Actually No!

    The gospel IS the word of God! The same gospel in the OT is the same gospel in the NT, and it is ALL the word of God.

    Luke 4
    [17] And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    [18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    [19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    [20] And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

    So was the gospel that was given to Isaiah in the OT any different than that that was preached by Christ, who BTW was the one that gave the word to Moses and ALL of the prophets in the first place!

    Let's read what man is to live by as told in the OT and NT;

    Deut.8
    "...that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."

    And here...

    Luke 4
    [4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    This is the gospel that Jesus preached, "...every word of God."


    .
     
  8. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    No what?

    The attempt to make the gospel message the entirety of the word of God in order to bring people into bondage to the law again will just not stand up to scripture.


    The gospel message to be obeyed by man today specifically deals with Christ dying for the sins of the world.

    While the Old Testament pre-figured Christ in the economy of the Covenant of Law, it was not until Christ came, died, and arose that the gospel message was given in full revelation to be understood.


    Hebrews 1


    [sup]1[/sup]God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    [sup]2[/sup]Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;



    The prophets did not have full revelation concerning the death of Christ, but we do.


    1 Peter 1:9-12 (King James Version)

    [sup]9[/sup]Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    [sup]10[/sup]Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    [sup]11[/sup]Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    [sup]12[/sup]Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


    They knew that a savior was coming, but they did not preach Jesus Christ, and Him crucufied.




    This is the term the book of Hebrews uses for the teaching of Christ found in the Old Testament:


    Hebrews 5:12 (King James Version)

    [sup]12[/sup]For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    And here is what Christ said to His disciples concerning their knowledge of the first principles of the oracles of God:

    Luke 24

    [sup]25[/sup]Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:


    [sup]26[/sup]Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

    [sup]27[/sup]And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


    [sup]32[/sup]And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?


    [sup]44[/sup]And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    [sup]45[/sup]Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    [sup]46[/sup]And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

    [sup]47[/sup]And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    [sup]48[/sup]And ye are witnesses of these things.


    Yes, I agree that the gospel of Christ is found in the Old Testament, I just disagree that the keeping of the First Covenant is the Gospel.



    I agree with these words, for they are true.

    Lets see it again:

    [sup]25[/sup]Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:



    [sup]26[/sup]Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? [sup]27[/sup]And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


    Was the suffering of Messiah His keeping of the Law?

    I don't think so, I do not for one minute think that the sinless Son of God had a problem keeping His own word.

    You have yet to answer my question: do you keep the commandment to put to death false prophets?

    You have called those who teach contrary to your doctrine such, or am I mistaken?

    If you will keep the commandments, you will need also to keep this one.

    I await your reply.


    GTY
     
  9. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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  10. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Agreed, which is why Jesus expounded in ALL of the scriptures the things concerning Him.

    We have a clearer understanding of Christ than the Old Testament prophets did.

    Your point?

    Not even the disciples, though specifically told by Christ that He would die for them, understood this truth, which is the gospel we preach, that Jesus died that men might be saved...not, that He died that they might keep the law for salvation.

    Yes, I know He is my Lord and Savior...but thanks for asking.


    No, but clarity of that message did.

    Didn't you just say it didn't change? This is a significant change that the teaching of works-based salvation overlooks.

    It is due to a misunderstanding of what the Law was meant to do, and the significance of the sacrifice and it's prefiguring of Christ's death.

    Good luck. The message of the gospel has been putting to silence the teachings of Judaizers since the first century, and will continue to do so until Christ returns.

    But, you take license with the interpretation of the Law. Did Moses have this understanding of putting to death a false prophet, or did he understand it to mean that they were to be physically carried out, as well as the putting to death of those who broke the law.

    If you seek to gain entrance to heaven, you must not play with the jots and tittles...it must be kept to the letter.

    Again, good luck.


    I will agree with that...I am human, and fallible.

    However, I do see the clear teaching of scripture that the Covenant of Law is obsolete due to Christ fulfilling what the First Covenant pointed to...Himself.



    The Covenant of Law is intrinsically tied to the law.

    While God's law (which predated this covenant) is eternal in its purity, holiness, and effectiveness for making God's people holy, we are discussing both how one is saved and how one remains saved...and that is what the issue is in this thread.

    It would make salvation accomplished by Christ's sacrifice and retained by the works of the law.

    That is not the gospel...never has been, never will be.

    This is a smokescreen.

    God's law is eternal.

    And, the born-again Christian will not be judged by the law, for we have already been judged in Jesus Christ.

    The works done in the body will be judged, but again, this does not determine salvation or the keeping of it, but the reward (or loss of reward) each believer will receive.



    [/size]
    It has everything to do with it. The thread does not teach a scriptural teaching, but one that places salvation ultimately in the hands of man.

    Salvation is possible only through the imputation of Christ's righteousness. That does not change after salvation.

    GTY
     
  11. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    AS I sat here reading this post I notice one person using scripture to make a point. And another person basically giving his take on the subject with no scriptural basis. My question to you Ranger is what works will man be judge on?
    I am going to quote you, and ask the people reading this thread, does this make any sense?
    First let me ask the people reading this, does this make any sense? What is the reward, if it isn't salvation? So your saying Ranger, a believer can live forever (salvation), but can loose their reward for the works done in the body? Hmmmm...... That does not makes sense to me. So I ask again what works will man be judged on? What can convict a man, but the law! If a man steals, kills, commit adultery, bear false witness, Idolatry, this bad work done in the body will get a person sent to the lake of fire! Paul made it so clear what a person should do to get any inheritance into the Kingdom of Christ, and of God.
    First thing that needs to be done is confess with your mouth
    Rom. 10:That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart ( to believe with the mind!) that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Then something must also happen, change the way you think, walk, and talk.
    Eph. 4:
    [sup]21[/sup]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

    [sup]22[/sup]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

    [sup]23[/sup]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; ( A person has change in the mind)

    [sup]24[/sup]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    [sup]25[/sup]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.( Jesus said to love our neighbor)

    [sup]26[/sup]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

    [sup]27[/sup]Neither give place to the devil.

    [sup]28[/sup]Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.( What ever a person did before, Christ, that person can't continue to commit that sin any longer.)

    [sup]29[/sup]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.( We even need to change the way we speak)

    [sup]30[/sup]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. ( Person is seal by God through His word, once they realize the gospel, and change their ways.)

    Now look at some of the things that will cause a person not enter into the kingdom, and receive salvation.

    Eph. 5:


    [sup]1[/sup]Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

    [sup]2[/sup]And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. ( We have to walk in love!) But the next verses are things we shouldn't do, notice what they are!

    [sup]3[/sup]But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

    [sup]4[/sup]Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

    [sup]5[/sup]For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
    Notice that these people broke commandments, the laws of God! Look at some more who won't make it!
    1 Cor. 6:
    [sup]9[/sup]Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

    [sup]10[/sup]Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    [sup]11[/sup]And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


    Do we notice all these people broke the law. So What can convict a man, but the law! Lets Go back to original statement made by Ranger to see if it makes sense, Ranger said: "And, the born-again Christian will not be judged by the law, for we have already been judged in Jesus Christ.

    The works done in the body will be judged, but again, this does not determine salvation or the keeping of it, but the reward (or loss of reward) each believer will receive. I understand he said the born again Christian will not be judge by the law, but the reality is every one has to follow God's law, because God is just, He isn't going to just judge a non believer for breaking his laws, and sent him to the lake of fire. Then a believer who breaks God law , or has bad "works done in the body", they will both get the same reward, THE LAKE OF FIRE! How can a person get judged from the works done in the body? According to Ranger...If its a non believer they get
    THE LAKE OF FIRE. If its a believer they can keep there salvation, but lose their reward? Makes no sense to me. God is a just God! One more thing Ranger, Rev 3: [sup]5[/sup]He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (In order to get your name blotted out, it has to be written in it first. So a believers name can get blotted out, for "bad works done in the body". Paul said if he didn't keep his body under subjection... 1 Cor. 9:But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Paul knew you get judged by what's done in the body!
     
  12. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Hello Xander, so glad you have chosen to further discussion, and you have touched upon the heart of this thread: works-based salvation.

    I hope we will have the chance to discuss this in detail. The first question I would ask you is this: how are men saved?

    Your replies here indicate that you believe Jesus is the beginning of salvation, and that by your works, you will be found worthy of entering the Kingdom of God.

    Is that right?




    The answer is this: Works do not save, either before salvation or after. And I as you have confessed, this makes no sense to you. I hope that our conversation will change that.

    What does it take to gain entrance to the kingdom of God?


    John 3
    [sup]3[/sup]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Pretty clear, right?

    Now, did you, Xander, bring this change about in your life, or will you admit that you needed a little help with that one?

    Man in incapable of causing this supernatural, spiritual rebirth...it is the work of God.

    Now, what does it take for God to bring this about? What does man do for God to say, okay, I will save this person, and change their very nature, and declare them just?

    Well, you posted some good verses that apply, though out of order:

    Rom. 10:That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart ( to believe with the mind!) that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    This you list as the first step, but I would suggest to you, this is not the first step.

    First, man must know what it is he will confess:




    Romans 10:13-17 (King James Version)




    [sup]13[/sup]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    [sup]14[/sup]How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    [sup]15[/sup]And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    [sup]16[/sup]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [sup]17[/sup]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Did you see that? Paul asks the question that disagrees with confession of Christ as being the beginning of salvation.

    No man can confess something he doesn't know. And no man can know if he does not hear the word of God, and specifically, the gospel of Christ.

    Would you admit at this point that the theology you have presented is in error...from the very first point?

    This isn't an issue that is non-essential, it is of the utmost importance. For this reason, it is God Who causes the unbeliever, the natural man to come to the point of understanding the spiritual, to know that he is a sinner, and that he is in need of repentance, and that he must turn to Christ for salvation.

    The first step is the supernatural work of God in the heart of the unveliever, This is the work which the Jews are accused of rejecting Acts 7:51 (KJV).



    It will to some.



    Glad you asked. Salvation is a gift, most will not argue this. If it were possible for man to live in such a way that they would be granted salvation, which includes a righteous standing before God...Christ need not have come Galatians 2:21 (KJV).

    Paul is clear concerning the fact that no flesh shall be justified by the works of the law:




    Galatians 2:16 (KJV)


    [sup]16[/sup]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    That is pretty clear.

    What is confused, though, is the reward that Christians will receive after their salvation:




    1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (King James Version)




    [sup]11[/sup]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

    [sup]12[/sup]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

    [sup]13[/sup]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

    [sup]14[/sup]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [sup]15[/sup]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    Christian's works will be judged, for sure, but their salvation is not based upon those works.

    Their salvation, a gift, not an earned payment, is based solely upon the righteous work of a righteous Savior.

    Romans 3 (KJV)



    [sup]19[/sup]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    [sup]20[/sup]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    [sup]21[/sup]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    [sup]22[/sup]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    [sup]23[/sup]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    [sup]24[/sup]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    [sup]25[/sup]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [sup]26[/sup]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    One has only two choices in relation to entering the Kingdom of God: trust in the blood (death of Christ) of Christ and His imputed righteousness, or...trust in their own righteousness.

    Starting to make sense yet?

    Is your faith in the hope that you will be righteous enough in this life to make God a debtor to you?

    Or is your faith in the shed blood of Christ.

    There is no middle ground. You are either placing your faith in Christ, or yourself.




    Reread the scripture above...that is exactly what I am saying.

    But those who teach salvation through works usually base their teaching on the false presumption that those who explicitly rely on Christ's finished work believe they have license to sin.

    I do not. Scripture teaches that we are to live holy lives in which Gods law is established. Works-based faith insists that we keep the law to be holy.




    Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)




    [sup]8[/sup]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    [sup]9[/sup]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [sup]10[/sup]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Those who are born again will without fail, do good works.

    This is not to say Christians will never sin, because we are compared to "babes" when we are born-again, and we grow and mature even as it is with physical growth.

    Those who seem to draw near to God, then live lives that are represented in the verses you supplied, have not the new birth.



    I hope at this point yo might answer this for yourself.



    You are ascribing a work that is God's to the law.




    John 16:7-11 (KJV)




    [sup]7[/sup]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    [sup]8[/sup]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    [sup]9[/sup]Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    [sup]10[/sup]Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; [sup]11[/sup]Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.





    I will actually disagree with this statement.

    Rejection of Christ will send them to the lake of fire.

    These works will determine the severity of their punishment.



    I agree.

    Sorry, but I have to drive my nephew to drill tonight, so I will have to end here.

    I am glad that you have decided to pursue this conversation, though I hope your only intent was to discredit me.

    I agree that I did not use scripture in the post you quoted, but I can assure you, I planned to, and plan to.

    Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this.

    I will try to be back in the morning, and finish addressing your post.

    GTY

     
  13. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    It's not the "works of the law" that are to be kept....just God's OTHERS laws!

    Heb.10
    [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Paul says if we break God's laws on purpose, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice. Why? Because Jesus has already died for our PAST sins once. He's not going to die again for them.

    Now if God's laws were nailed to His cross how is it possible to be able to sin? Let's read again what sin is.....

    1 John 3
    [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Christ died for our sins. So do we continue in them? No we do not! We keep God's laws to retain the sacrfice Jesus already made!


    Tell me ranger.....do you know which laws consists of the "works of the law"?


    .
     
  14. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    Absolutely! Jesus did His part by becoming the perfect sacrifice. So therefore there is no need to sacrifice animals, any longer. But we must continue to do our part, by continuing to keep His law. He said it Himself. John 14:[sup]15[/sup]If ye love me, keep my commandments. [sup]21[/sup]He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ( And if you don't keep them, this is what scripture says about you!)1 John 2:[sup]3[/sup]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[sup]4[/sup]He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ( So I ask you a question Ranger, do you keep His commandments?)

    You did an end around, and didn't answer my question? So I'll ask again! What works, are the people in Rev 20 judge with?

    It would make sense if you knew Jesus was speaking of the Father's kingdom, not His own kingdom! I say this because in the Father kingdom you need to have a spiritual body , hence being born again, to see it. The Father's kingdom will come down after the GWT judgment, and there will be no flesh at this time!

    Of course I needed help. But I wouldn't of changed if I didn't believe, "have faith" in Jesus.

    Your right, God must give you that glorified body "born again". Born again doesn't mean a change in the mind the way you suppose it does. Because once your born again, you CAN NOT commit sin! 1John 3: [sup]9[/sup]Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ( you already stated..Ranger said"
    Those who are born again will without fail, do good works.

    This is not to say Christians will never sin, because we are compared to "babes" when we are born-again, and we grow and mature even as it is with physical growth."
    That statement is in error! Because, according to the scriptures some one who is born again CAN NOT commit sin!
    So I can conclude: no one is born again, until the resurrection!


    I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had to state the obvious. Next time I will!



    "My theology" as you say, wasn't in error. I didn't feel the need to state the obvious! Who is going to confess anything without first hearing the gospel? That was obvious! So your point is moot.


    First lets read clear up the error in your understand concerning the difference in which law Paul was speaking about? Paul was speaking about the sacrificial law in Gal 2: [sup]21[/sup]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.( Why did Christ die?)( Because man sinned against God, so it took a man who was perfect to become our sacrifice. If righteousness came by the sacrificial law, then Christ is dead in vain! Makes sense....)


    Again the confusion is in your understanding of what Paul taught. The "salvation is a gift". Eternal life is a gift of salvation, for those that believe in Jesus sacrifice, that He rose from the grave, and keeps His commandments! That is how you receive the gift.

    Romans 3 (KJV)



    [sup]19[/sup]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    [sup]20[/sup]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    [sup]21[/sup]But now the righteousness of God without the law ( what law? The sacrificial law!)is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ( Ranger you can't see that Paul is talking about two law's in this verse?)

    [sup]22[/sup]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe( them that believe what? Jesus sacrifice!)

    [sup]23[/sup]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    [sup]24[/sup]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    [sup]25[/sup]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [sup]26[/sup]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



    My faith is in Jesus, and that is why I follow what He say's, concerning His laws! I can't misinterpret Paul's writing to circumvent what the Lord told Moses, and the prophet's to write. His sacrifice, and His gift of salvation was already spoke about in the scriptures. 1 Peter 1:[sup]1[/sup]Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    [sup]2[/sup]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    [sup]3[/sup]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    [sup]4[/sup]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    [sup]5[/sup]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ( When will salvation, be revealed? the last time!)

    [sup]6[/sup]Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

    [sup]7[/sup]That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    ( When did He say it will happen? At the appearing of Jesus Christ! And not before!)


    [sup]8[/sup]Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

    [sup]9[/sup]Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    [sup]10[/sup]Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:( The prophets knew about salvation, because they prophesied of the grace that should come! Jesus is who they were prophesying about!)




    How do you live a holy life Ranger, without keeping God's law? Please explain.

    Yes, I did. And your doctrine still makes absolutely no sense.

    No I'm not, I'm saying exactly what scripture says in Rev. 20:[sup]12[/sup]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    [sup]13[/sup]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [sup]14[/sup]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[sup]15[/sup]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    (You notice judge according to their works!)( Now don't try to feed that lie about the dead being just the wicked!)(The dead are those that died, and were not found worthy enough to get resurrected in the first resurrection.) They could not all be wicked, because then, what would be the point of the judgment! He pulled out the book of life, and who's name was not found......So apparently some names were found in the book of life.



    What exactly does that mean? "The severity of their punishment", If you are the lake of fire for eternity, I think that is severe enough!

    I am not only here to discredit you. I saw you were in error, and I attempted reproof you like the scriptures says, I'm suppose to. 2 Tim. 4: [sup]2[/sup]Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
    (Every time I see you speaking in error, I will attempt to reproof you with longsuffering!)

     
  15. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Then you are saying that we can pick and choose what laws of God we are to follow?

    This is worse than a "license to sin" theology.

    Not understanding the book of Hebrews will lead to this conclusion.

    The willfull sin mentioned here is properly understood to speak of those who return to the works of the law...and continue (or return to) sacrificing for sin according to the Levitical economy.

    There "remains no sacrifice for sin" for these, because they have rejected the final sacrifice, that of Jesus Christ. These are they who have not "believed to the saving of the soul."

    Paul, as well as John, are clear that Christians will sin after salvation. We grow in Christ, we are not immediately transformed into sinless saints.

    Knowing that scripture teaches that it takes only one sin to be guilty of the whole law, and be subject to the penalty, which is death, how do we reconcile the sin committed after salvation?

    Good news, we have an advocate.

    And He is our advocate today. After salvation.

    One who does not sin does not need an advocate.


    Hebrews 10:10 (KJV)


    [sup]10[/sup]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    We are not sanctified by works. Neither shall any flesh be justified through the works of the law.

    Colossians 2:13-14 (KJV)





    [sup]13[/sup]And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [sup]14[/sup]Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Though once dead in trespasses and sins, we are "made alive", and ALL our trespasses are forgiven. If it were not true that Christ's sacrifice did not cover the sins of a Christian after they were saved, then we would have to say that God is overlooking sin. Even sin committed unintentionally is sin. In God's law, unintentional sin required a sacrifice as well.

    If you consider that, then you will have to conclude that Christ's sacrifice was "once (for all)."

    If Christ's sacrifice for sin was for only sins committed before salvation, God's law would require a sacrifice for sins committed after salvation.



    I am glad that you make it clear that your belief is that we are justified by our works and not the sacrifice of Christ.

    This is in direct contradiction with the teaching of scripture, and I hope you will come to understand that.

    For you specifically, and the theology you follow, I would direct you to the story of the rich young ruler. You seek eternal life through the keeping of the law, and see what our Lord told this man.


    Sorry, have to get ready for the morning service.

    Eccl.12:13, I hope you will continue this discussion. I think if you will look at the things which your doctrine is built upon, you will see some inconsistencies with it.

    I do not question your salvation, just the teaching which you present.

    We have a Savior that is trustworthy, and when He saves...He saves.

    GTY



     
  16. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    Not perfectly, but yes, I keep His commandments...because His Spirit within me causes me to walk in His statutes.

    But those who see the works of the law and the keeping of them as how salvation is "earned," show that they do not see Christ's sacrifice as payment for sin, as scripture teaches.

    And usually, they overlook John's instruction to the Church:


    1 John 1:8-10 (KJV)




    [sup]8[/sup]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    [sup]9[/sup]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [sup]10[/sup]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Writing to the Church, the argument that this speaks of life before salvation cannot be made.

    If you are trusting in your works to "receive the end of your faith," your faith is not in Christ, but yourself.

    You will not be without sin after salvation, so that sin you commit was either paid for by the shed blood of Christ, or it wasn't.

    All sin must be atoned for, and Christ's sacrifice did just that.

    Your question was answered, you just did not like the answer.

    You have all of mankind in one group, to be judged at the Great White Throne.

    Those who appear at the GWT will be judged according to their works, their sin will be judged. But Christ took upon Himself the sin of the world, and those who come to Him in faith have been judged in Him.

    If you are saved by grace, not of works, how then can you say that you are saved by works when they are judged? And that is what is being said, and it is in direct contradiction to scripture.

    Did not Jesus, after resurrection, have a body? He said He did. Why would you think that there will be no flesh at this time?

    And your understanding of the new birth seems to equate it with glorification.

    The new birth is part of salvation, and our salvation will be fulfilled at glorification. This is what we groan for.

    And this is where our theology differs dramatically.

    You see yourself as the catalyst for salvation, and stated that your belief was the first step.

    The truth is, before you believed, before you had faith, God was working in your heart, and it is He that brought you to the point where you were able to believe.

    Again, salvation is the work of God, from start to finish.

    I don't think you know what I believe about being "born again."

    Yet.

    So, you do not sin? Never?

    Since the time you were saved, you have never sinned?



    Was Peter, a born-again believer, guilty of sin when he played the hypocrite?




    Galatians 2:11-17 (NIV)




    [sup]11[/sup]But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

    [sup]12[/sup]For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

    [sup]13[/sup]And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

    [sup]14[/sup]But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

    [sup]15[/sup]We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

    [sup]16[/sup]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. [sup]17[/sup]But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

    Note v. 16. Paul found Peter's actions to be contrary to his faith in Christ. He was being hypocritical.

    I will have to continue this, I am running out of time.

    GTY



     
  17. S.T. Ranger

    S.T. Ranger Member

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    So when one is saved, they become sinless?


    I hope so. That one cannot be saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit is critical to sound doctrine.

    There is a need. When one believes themselves to be the ones who bring about their salvation, and this is the end of this theology, one will without fail lead men to the wrong savior.

    Leading men to the law for salvation contradicts scripture's teaching as to what the law was meant to do, which was to reveal to man God's will, show him his sin, and lead them to Christ.

    When the gospel is preached in truth, it will fulfill the law, and lead men to Christ for salvation, not the law. Galatians 3:24-25

    Paul was speaking about the law. No need to interject, the passage is clear.


    That bis how you earn a gift, making the word of God of none effect.



    Was it the sacrificial law that gave the knowledge of sin?


    How have I misinterpreted Paul's writing?

    How is it this verse says we are "Elect?" Not one mention of keeping the law.

    What do you think sanctification of the Spirit through obedience and sprinkling of the blood means?



    We are born-again unto a living hope by...?

    Believers receive the new birth. If a man has not the Spirit of Christ...he does not belong to God.

    According to works-based salvation, the inheritance that we who are called joint-heirs look to...is corruptible, and able to be defiled, by our sin after salvation.

    Our "reservation" is questionable, and may fade away.

    Many are the scriptures that show salvation starts here, and awaits glorification, which will occur when we are resurrected.


    I am now out of time.

    GTY



     
  18. Eccl.12:13

    Eccl.12:13 New Member

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    For those reading this thread, do NOT be misled.

    Think about it and just use common sense.....

    For your name to be placed in God's book of life you must be DOING something right! It's not just because you believe in Jesus Christ!

    Think about it for a minute....can a person be any more saved than having their name in God's book of life?

    If they died while their name is still in the book, they have enternal life as their reward.



    But God's holy word says that a name can be removed! As a matter of fact it is Jesus that says He will do the removing....

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

    OK......let's get back to that common sense.....

    What would cause Jesus to REMOVE a name that is IN the book? If it were not so He would not have said it!

    Let's again read what God's word says......

    Ezek.18
    [24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
    [25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    [26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

    There you have it!!!

    When a righteous man STOPS being righteous and starts going BACK to what he was DOING before, he risk the chance of having his name removed from God's book!

    Doesn't that make sense? Now let's look at the reverse to prove that God is indeed fair...

    [21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
    [22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
    [23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
    [27] Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    [28] Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    Now doesn't this make sense?

    People please understand......YOU and only YOU can cause your salvation to be lost!

    It is true that Christ died for your sins. He died for the sins of EVERYBODY!!!!

    But will EVERYBODY make it in to God's kingdom?

    Think about it!!!!


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  19. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    AMEN! That is the simplicity in Christ!
     
  20. Xanderoc

    Xanderoc New Member

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    Eccl answered this question with his last post. So there is no need for me to elaborate.
    We are suppose to lead men to Christ, believing in His sacrifice, resurrection, and keeping of His commandments. What is contradicting is telling someone they can receive salvation by just simply believing in Jesus, without keeping His law! That will get an individual sent to the lake of fire. Which is contrary to sound doctrine.
    Galatians 3: [sup]24[/sup]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [sup]25[/sup]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.( Again you have failed to realize Christ was speaking of the sacrificial law! ) The law that was our school master, because it taught that when someone sin, something had to die. vs 25 say's after faith is come ( faith in what, Christ sacrifice!)we are no longer under the sacrificial law. Hopefully that is clear.
    Apparently there is a need to interject, because your understanding of which law Paul was talking about is in error. Peter warned people concerning Paul's writing 2 Peter 3:[sup]15[/sup]And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, [sup]16[/sup]as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
    Again I will interject so you can see Romans 3 (KJV)
    [sup]
    19
    [/sup]Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    [sup]20[/sup]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law(God's commandments) is the knowledge of sin.

    [sup]21[/sup]But now the righteousness of God without the law ( what law? The sacrificial law!)is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ( Ranger you can't see that Paul is talking about two law's in this verse?)
    It means we are separated by the word of God through obedience, and Jesus blood.

    Ranger, what your not understanding is "new birth", "born-again", is a changing of the vile body unto a glorious one. A NEW BODY! Not just a changing in the mind.
    Again, Ecc has answered this with his last post.
     
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