"Once Saved Always Saved?"

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can we lose our salvation?
1. How can we lose something we did not win in the first place?

2. It is not our salvation to win or lose, but God's to do for us by grace through faith.

So what then of not abiding in the Vine (John 15). Of falling away (Heb 6). Of being a castaway (1 Cor 9)
 

GEN2REV

Well-Known Member
May 12, 2021
3,850
1,436
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can we lose our salvation?
1. How can we lose something we did not win in the first place?

John 15:1-6 actually seems to indicate that we can lose our salvation. Especially in verse 2 where Jesus indicates that He is referring to those who are 'in Him'; those who are believers and professed Christians.

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He (The Father) takes away; ..." (Jn. 15:2)

"If anyone does not abide in me (dwell in My doctrine, walk in My ways), he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (Jn. 15:6)

2. It is not our salvation to win or lose, but God's to do for us by grace through faith.

We certainly have a part in our Salvation.

Salvation being the ultimate goal of the Christian per Paul in Phil. 3:11-14.

"... if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; ... I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

And referred to in Phil. 2:12-13.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

This doesn't mean that God works through us with no agreement or participation on our part. It is still up to us to do the good works that God puts into our hearts.
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,591
113
70
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can we lose our salvation?
1. How can we lose something we did not win in the first place?

2. It is not our salvation to win or lose, but God's to do for us by grace through faith.

So what then of not abiding in the Vine (John 15). Of falling away (Heb 6). Of being a castaway (1 Cor 9)

If you could ask him Bob, I think Judas could render the answer. There is no doubt about it, if one of the apostles could, then obviously we can. You are correct however, we don't really have it until we receive it, and that is yet future. For most of us, we will gain life at the end of the millennial reign of Christ Rev 20:5
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you could ask him Bob, I think Judas could render the answer. There is no doubt about it, if one of the apostles could, then obviously we can. You are correct however, we don't really have it until we receive it, and that is yet future. For most of us, we will gain life at the end of the millennial reign of Christ Rev 20:5
So then, one that was saved, and is not saved now.

Can that one be saved again?
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
John 15:1-6 actually seems to indicate that we can lose our salvation. Especially in verse 2 where Jesus indicates that He is referring to those who are 'in Him'; those who are believers and professed Christians.

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He (The Father) takes away; ..." (Jn. 15:2)

"If anyone does not abide in me (dwell in My doctrine, walk in My ways), he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (Jn. 15:6)



We certainly have a part in our Salvation.

Salvation being the ultimate goal of the Christian per Paul in Phil. 3:11-14.

"... if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; ... I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

And referred to in Phil. 2:12-13.

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

This doesn't mean that God works through us with no agreement or participation on our part. It is still up to us to do the good works that God puts into our hearts.

Since we can have faith that is dead (James 2), then can we have a dead faith that was once living?
 

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,591
113
70
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So then, one that was saved, and is not saved now.

Can that one be saved again?

Yes sir 1 Cor 6:11. A great example to consider is David, he committed atrocious sins, so bad that when Nathan presented it to David in an illustrative way, David himself said this man deserves to die. Great account found at 2 Sam chap 12.

The only ones who can not repent from their sins are: (Matthew 12:31) . . .I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.

Sinning against the holy spirit is very hard to do, one would have to know Jehovah intimately and then work against His purposes to commit that sin. An example of this is found in the Bible at:
(Hebrews 6:4-6) . . .as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,581
5,771
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How can we lose something we did not win in the first place?

Have to think past your nose. How can you not lose your salvation? That would be the question. The alternative is that no one would lose their salvation and heaven would be full of evildoers. Every type of sin! murderers...child molesters.....child molester that ate their victims....seral rapists.

Then the question would be....what is hell for? Another question would be, if heaven is for evil, were is God and good people going to go? If heaven is for evil, how is that a reward for good people? It would seem to be an eternal punishment for good people. my yoke is easy and my burden is light and plenty of light so you see all the magnificent evil in heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kcnalp

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Have to think past your nose. How can you not lose your salvation? That would be the question. The alternative is that no one would lose their salvation and heaven would be full of evildoers. Every type of sin! murderers...child molesters.....child molester that ate their victims....seral rapists.

Then the question would be....what is hell for? Another question would be, if heaven is for evil, were is God and good people going to go? If heaven is for evil, how is that a reward for good people? It would seem to be an eternal punishment for good people. my yoke is easy and my burden is light and plenty of light so you see all the magnificent evil in heaven.

I ask the question in that way, because it is always asked in that way. 'Can I lose my salvation?'

I believe it is the wrong question to ask, because logically we cannot lose what we cannot win. We are to press toward the mark to win Christ Jesus, but not salvation. That implies salvation by 'winning' works.

I believe the more accurate question is: Can the faith of Jesus alive in our hearts become dead to us, and we become dead to Him? We return once again to our former days of vomit and wallowing in the mire (2 Peter 2)
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes sir 1 Cor 6:11. A great example to consider is David, he committed atrocious sins, so bad that when Nathan presented it to David in an illustrative way, David himself said this man deserves to die. Great account found at 2 Sam chap 12.

The only ones who can not repent from their sins are: (Matthew 12:31) . . .I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.

Sinning against the holy spirit is very hard to do, one would have to know Jehovah intimately and then work against His purposes to commit that sin. An example of this is found in the Bible at:
(Hebrews 6:4-6) . . .as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame.

Many teach Heb 6 as proof that 'once saved, always saved', because it is impossible for those once enlightened by Christ to not go on to heaven with Him...

They also say John 10 proves eternal salvation without chance of failure to arrive with Him in heaven. Once eternal Life is given to us by Jesus Christ, and we are enlightened by Him, we can never perish, and no man is able to pluck us from His hand...
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,581
5,771
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe it is the wrong question to ask, because logically we cannot lose what we cannot win. We are to press toward the mark to win Christ Jesus, but not salvation. That implies salvation by 'winning' works.

What this is non-sense. God and salvation is not non-sense. There is no works of salvation! It is a strawman declaration. No one one saying works are saving. Only the works of the devil! You cannot work for salvation, Christ provides salvation. But you can work yourself out of salvation. The Bible tells you that many times. Satan will also tell sin and sin some more heaven yours!

Many teach Heb 6 as proof that 'once saved, always saved', because it is impossible for those once enlightened by Christ to not go on to heaven with Him...

Boy could not get that more wrong....number one OSAS is not biblical and number two Hebrews is the last to read that into
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What this is non-sense. God and salvation is not non-sense. There is no works of salvation! It is a strawman declaration. No one one saying works are saving. Only the works of the devil! You cannot work for salvation, Christ provides salvation. But you can work yourself out of salvation. The Bible tells you that many times. Satan will also tell sin and sin some more heaven yours!



Boy could not get that more wrong....number one OSAS is not biblical and number two Hebrews is the last to read that into
"But you can work yourself out of salvation. The Bible tells you that many times."

Now, while I like the quote and had not heard it put that way before, what Scriptures tell us that. Many times.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,581
5,771
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"But you can work yourself out of salvation. The Bible tells you that many times."

Now, while I like the quote and had not heard it put that way before, what Scriptures tell us that. Many times.

Here is a few...not a complete list.

2nd Peter 2:4:22 but here is part of it.

if God spared not the angels that sinned….
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10: 26-31
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2Cor:5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1st John:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

1st Corinthians 6:9-10 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Galatians 5:21 “Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

1st John:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Matthew 13:40-50
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl 44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field. 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have mixed in the ministerial works being burned, and thus no rewards (2 Cor 5), with the nations being weeded out for the millennial kingdom, and thus no participation (Matthew 13), and finally the unbelieving souls being burned for evil works, and thus no eternal life. (Gal 5)(1 Cor 6)(Rev 21)

For (2 Peter 2), (1 John 3), (Heb 6) they say that though we may sin willfully, we are still forgiven of past, present, and future sins at the cross, and so we have fallen from full fellowship with the Lord in this world, but still a saved soul in the end.

For Matthew 7, that speaks of hypocrites who give lip service to the Lord, even in ministry, but have never known and loved Him from the heart, which is true salvation (Rom 10).

That just leaves Hebrews 10.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,581
5,771
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You have mixed in the ministerial works being burned, and thus no rewards (2 Cor 5), with the nations being weeded out for the millennial kingdom, and thus no participation (Matthew 13), and finally the unbelieving souls being burned for evil works, and thus no eternal life. (Gal 5)(1 Cor 6)(Rev 21)

For (2 Peter 2), (1 John 3), (Heb 6) they say that though we may sin willfully, we are still forgiven of past, present, and future sins at the cross, and so we have fallen from full fellowship with the Lord in this world, but still a saved soul in the end.

For Matthew 7, that speaks of hypocrites who give lip service to the Lord, even in ministry, but have never known and loved Him from the heart, which is true salvation (Rom 10).

That just leaves Hebrews 10.
I disagree with that...they are very straight forward scriptures.
People have been explaining away scripture for centuries. If most of your interest is in sinning and getting away with it, I cannot help you. Settle up with Christ on Judgment Day...I hope I get to see you explain away the scriptures as you are standing before him.
Goodbye.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I disagree with that...they are very straight forward scriptures.
People have been explaining away scripture for centuries. If most of your interest is in sinning and getting away with it, I cannot help you. Settle up with Christ on Judgment Day...I hope I get to see you explain away the scriptures as you are standing before him.
Goodbye.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6)

I never said I believe 'once saved always saved'. I only pointed out certain flaws in your argument, that such people would respond with. The one big clue to the faulty argument I offered was this:

When we come to Jesus at the cross, our sins past, present, and future are forgiven. (A guy named Charles Stanley used to preach that all the time)

And the one Scripture not disputed was in Hebrews 10. Why is that?

In proving a doctrine by Scripture, you need to focus and keep it simple, one point at a time.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,581
5,771
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Romans 6)

I never said I believe 'once saved always saved'. I only pointed out certain flaws in your argument, that such people would respond with. The one big clue to the faulty argument I offered was this:

When we come to Jesus at the cross, our sins past, present, and future are forgiven. (A guy named Charles Stanley used to preach that all the time)

And the one Scripture not disputed was in Hebrews 10. Why is that?

In proving a doctrine by Scripture, you need to focus and keep it simple, one point at a time.
No flaws...dead on.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
64
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No flaws...dead on.
Ok, brother, but let us focus specifically on proof of Scripture that those who were saved and are not saved now...Proof of destruction of them that once believed Jesus unto the saving of the soul...

The reason Hebrews Chapter 10 stands is because a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation is not the judgment seat of Christ for believers, who have fallen out of fellowship with God, but is the great white throne judgment of the condemned, who have fallen from the grace of God.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Vs 26)
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,581
5,771
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok, brother, but let us focus specifically on proof of Scripture that those who were saved and are not saved now...Proof of destruction of them that once believed Jesus unto the saving of the soul...

The reason Hebrews Chapter 10 stands is because a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation is not the judgment seat of Christ for believers, who have fallen out of fellowship with God, but is the great white throne judgment of the condemned, who have fallen from the grace of God.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Vs 26)

No all the scriptures I gave you stands. Look at the threads that are associated with this....thousand of posts...you can review them.
My patience level for dealing with evil is wearing thin. If the most important thing to you is sinning and getting away with it, getting rewarded for it. I call that the church of Satan, it is a real thing. You might want to look up their beliefs regarding morality.
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
5,406
5,862
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok, brother, but let us focus specifically on proof of Scripture that those who were saved and are not saved now...Proof of destruction of them that once believed Jesus unto the saving of the soul...

The reason Hebrews Chapter 10 stands is because a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation is not the judgment seat of Christ for believers, who have fallen out of fellowship with God, but is the great white throne judgment of the condemned, who have fallen from the grace of God.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Vs 26)
In Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)