One Concept of an Ideal Church

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Trekson

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If you’ve been a church for forty years and struggle to get 40 people to attend every Sunday, something is wrong. If your kids don’t want to go and can’t wait to leave, something is wrong. If you’re sitting in church wondering how soon you will be able to get on with your day, something is wrong! Many Christians have turned attending church into a simple formality added to one’s to-do list of weekend plans. If your kids would rather play sports than attend church, something is wrong! Not with them, but with the church they attend.

Let me share some of my experiences I’ve had while searching for a church. In one church a woman started to give a message in tongues and she was escorted out for “causing a disturbance”! In another church, they had the best music but their SS material stated that “a Christian is never supposed to fight with devil, we are only to plead the blood of Jesus for protection”!! Which kind of defeats the whole “armor of God” thing, in my opinion. They were also quite legalistic. In another church the pastor was giving a demonstration on how to witness. He had a member of the congregation come up and role play the ‘sinner”. Here is how it went, word for word:
Pastor: “Do you know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior”?
Sinner: “No”
Pastor: “Would you like to?”
Sinner: “Yes”
Pastor: “Let us pray”
Pastor: “There, do you see how easy that was. That’s all it takes to lead someone to the Lord!”

It was all I could do to not laugh out loud. That might work if someone is on their deathbed, moments away from death but for your average neighbor, friend or co-worker, it would not go like that at all.

Another church I attended took up the offering and the pastor’s wife sat down in front of the church facing the congregation and started counting the money right there! I thought that was kind of tacky. A different church I attended for a short time refused to discuss end times even in a small group setting as they believed it was too controversial and the pastor, in his sermons, made several biblical interpretational errors.

The last church I attended was a-millennial which means they don’t believe Christ is coming back and we are in that prophesied kingdom now. They symbolize all of Revelations and do not believe in a literal interpretation at all. In another church, the song leader was very talented but instead of leading the congregation she would go off on a musical journey which the congregation couldn’t follow so instead of singing along we all just sat there, listening. It’s been frustrating to say the least but several years ago the Lord showed me what church should be like and I will share what he showed me.

The other day I was kind of wondering to myself why other people can’t see what I see? Why are they satisfied with the status quo? The Lord spoke to me then and said, “because they haven’t seen what I’ve showed you”. Then He put this verse in my mind from Prov. 29:18 – “Where there is no vision, the people perish…” followed by Hos. 4:6 – “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…” So I kind of incredulously thought out loud, “You mean other believers don’t realize this”!? He didn’t answer me again so I thought it must be time to share what I was shown.

First, we need to set some parameters, so ideally, the church building would have a nursery, a good-sized fellowship hall with a near-by kitchen and several classrooms. The kitchen, nursery and fellowship hall would all have speakers so people in them wouldn’t feel left out of the service. It would also have a family-friendly sanctuary and an outdoor play area. Good musicians would also be needed. If the church is small then you have a goal to work towards. Now many things depend on the size and needs of the congregation because it would be THEIR church, not the pastor’s!

I’ve seen too many churches fall apart whenever the pastor leaves because the church doesn’t have their own identity. The local Body of Christ should know and be aware of the needs of their community and be willing to serve in whatever direction God leads them and any new pastor coming in should adapt to the church’s calling and identity, NOT expect them to change everything because the new pastor wants to go outside the local church’s calling.

The church service itself would most likely be different from anything you’ve experienced. It would start with a theme song like “This is the Day the Lord Has Made”, of course as I write this, things might be a little different depending on the desires of the congregation. This would be followed by praise reports and testimonies about what God has been doing in the lives of the congregation and/or the ministries of the church. Then would come prayer requests and as each request is given the whole congregation prays for that need right at that moment instead of them being grouped into a generic all-inclusive, non-specific prayer that is generally the case in most churches.

When that is completed, instead of ushers going around the church collecting offerings, the collection plates would be up front upon the altars where we would go to present our offering to the Lord. I think this is a little more humbling and puts WHY we are giving our money to God in the forefront of our minds. After all, it’s called an “offering” for a reason!
The service itself would be a little longer because every Sunday there would be a congregational meal and the church would decide if it wants to be a breakfast, brunch or lunch following the guidelines of Acts 2:42, 46. There would be alternative foods for those who may suffer from salt, sugar or gluten issues and/or food allergies. There would be no evening service. The meal time would be our time of fellowship which would lead to stronger bonds within the Body then your typical two or three minute, “meet and greet”.

Following the meal would be our non-traditional Sunday School. (Notice there hasn’t been a sermon or a song service yet.) The church’s focus would be on teaching ages 10 and up how to fulfill the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19-20 and on Body Life in general. It would focus on practical issues like how to witness/evangelize, learning what your spiritual gift is and how it functions within the Body, various apologetics like how to reach an evolutionist or why we believe abortion is wrong. There would also be teachings on preparing for the end times and what the church might expect in the future and how to be the church if the corporate setting is no longer allowed.

Kids 10 and up would learn what is and is not acceptable behavior in the House of the Lord but they would also be included in the classes. People tend to forget that children can have spiritual gifts too, although they might change as they grow older. Children are our most precious resource for the continuation of the Body of Christ as a whole. They naturally long to be part of something greater then themselves and when raised right and given the opportunity, they like to help out those less fortunate then themselves. When treated with respect mostly they respond in kind. All members of the congregation, even kids, would be called by the title Brother or Sister to remind ourselves that we are part of a larger family, the Family of God!

After the lessons it would be time to head back to the sanctuary for our closing which would involve members of the congregation sharing through song or word what the Lord had put on their heart. This would be followed by a short, themed message by the pastor. The closing part of the service would be the song service. It would be full of loud, praise-filled, foot-stomping, hand-clapping music geared to charge us up and strengthen our faith for the week ahead. The bible tells us to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord” and that “God inhabits the praises of His people”! Of course, we would make allowances for when the Holy Spirit decides He wants to be worshiped, but it would be HIS decision. We would not force Him to be in a time box of our choosing. When the gifts of the spirit are flowing freely, then we come to the point where we will recognize and obey what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. Too often it seems like the Holy Spirit is no longer invited to our services or allowed to follow His own agenda.

There would be no mid-week service. In lieu of that, it would have family oriented, ministry based small groups. These ministries could be community based or Body based; such as community food shelters, pregnancy centers or the homeless and within the Body there might be seniors in need of assistance or a family going through a hard time. Hospital/Nursing Homes visitation would also be considered a small group ministry.

If the church starts to get too large then we would divide our spiritual gifts and branch off into a new location but continuing what we have learned from the start.

So, you guys tell me, does this sound like something you would like?
 

Angelina

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Hi Trekson, We have some things that are similar. Our local Baptist is basically set up the way you are describing the layout with various teachers taking specific levels of Sunday school. It also caters for all ages, from babies/Creche, toddlers, school age children to youth. Most of these categories have their own class rooms/ areas specifically set up for them. There is also a community hall connected between the kitchen and the foyer of the main Church so that both areas have access to the same kitchen which can open up on both sides. The hall is open for community use with various community groups/services using it regularly.

The actual service that you have mentioned reminds me a lot of the Pentecostal services that we have here along with combined potluck lunch afterwards. I have found that each Church has it's own unique way of doing things [flavour] and I love them all because we're kinda like individual tribes of believer's who worship God differently and yes... train and mature ourselves and our young people up in the way they should go. Ephesians 4:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.

JM :9qcrib: Thanks for this interesting topic. Bless you! :m1212:
 

mjrhealth

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Funny thing church, so many get tired of it and leave, start a homegroup and recreate exacty the same church the just came out of. One church i used to belong to fel lapart, saw it coming, watched teh pastor fall away from God, a friend of mine asked me if I was going to go to teh new church he was going to, and my answer, " No i will no longer follow man". did bump into a pastor i used to know , went to his church for a few months, saw where that was going and than did what Jesus said.I came out of her and there is no going back.

For those who belong to Christ we are His Ecclesia, we cannot belong to any one else.
 

Deborah_

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The last church I attended was a-millennial which means they don’t believe Christ is coming back and we are in that prophesied kingdom now.
That's not what amillennialism means. Christ is definitely coming back to judge the world and bring in the new age, it's just that the '1000 years' is not a literal length of time.
 

BjornFree

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What is my 'Ideal Church'?
I gradually grew into 'faith' in a small independant chapel opposite my parents home.
They sent me to the Sunday school at the age of 5 (1940) so that they could enjoy a quite Sunday afternoon.
I grew into full active membership but by 1965, after I had moved away due to a job change, I returned only to find that it had imploded in a way that they had taught me ought not to be possible for those who practised their 'pacifist' reliance on the deference of Christ's Sermon on the Mount.
50 years have since passed, during which time the vast majority of assemblies have developed into 'pop concerts', and/or have come to rely on 'signs and wonders' to a degree that I find to be so distracting (and even abhorrent in the case of those who practice Benny Hinn/Tod Bentley style 'Slain in the Spirit' stuff) that I am no longer able to worship with a "Godly reverence and awe'.

What then is my 'Ideal Church'
I guess it would be one where I was the originator and sole member ...... And that, in fact, is the one which I currently attend!

Regards to a few old friends who I find to be posting here......Mike
 

Trekson

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Thanks for your input guys and gals. There is no denying that in many areas the churches aren't living up to their destinies. However, I don't think withdrawing is the answer. I'm not one to talk really as my church attendance has been very spotty over the last decade but my desire to be part of an active Body of Christ hasn't wavered, I just can't find one and I have been praying for years that God would lead me to the right church.

Personally, I believe the decline of the churches is caused by two things that began around the early 1980's. Contemporary music and the idea that it is the churches responsibility to "create" an "atmosphere of worship"! My estimate is that 95% of contemporary music can be summed up in this phrase: "God is awesome, His creation is wonderful and we are just lowly sinners unworthy of His grace"! Why can't they just say that in the beginning and then get on with some really enjoyable music!

For those who grew up in Pentecostal churches as I did, the concept that we need to "create" room for His presence is mind-boggling! The problem arises when the Holy Spirit doesn't want to be limited to the 10:45-11:00 am time slot! I blame the Bible Colleges for teaching this form of "how to be a church" in their classes designed for that. The end result is a mass cookie-cutter assembly of weak, ineffectual churches. I guess we really do need a revival just not one focusing on getting people saved but one on rescuing believers from the mundane we have become!
 

mjrhealth

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ut my desire to be part of an active Body of Christ hasn't wavered,
When you get to teh realisiation that "church" does not necesasary have anything to do with teh body of Christ it may make a lot ,more sense. We are supposed to follow after Christ not men.

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

Problem is its exactly what church does.
 

Trekson

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A church service, yes but THE church and the Body of Christ are the same thing. We are to have one mind and one purpose working together in unity. A bunch of scattered individual cells does not a Body make, imo.
 

mjrhealth

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A church service, yes but THE church and the Body of Christ are the same thing. We are to have one mind and one purpose working together in unity. A bunch of scattered individual cells does not a Body make, imo.
That depends on which church you speak of, christians have this habbt of sating" teh body", just because one is in church does not mean the yare a part of teh body of Christ, while Jesus and God speak of spirituakl things men speak of carnal things, stuff they can see, touch and hear. Jesus never came to build brick buildings on thsi earth with men following afte rmen, He came to build a spiritual "ecclesia" made up of those who follow after Him, they cannot be in disagreement if they are in Him. As it says,

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

so many children so few sons.

just like the Israelites when the ycame out of egypt, christans are afraid to come out of church, because than the ywill need to have "faith" because the ywill only have God to rely upon instead of people . the israelites where led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night, we are supoosed to be led by the spirit at all times, doesnt always hapen but it is how it is supoosed to be. But even teh israelties couldnt cope.

Num_21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
 

BjornFree

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Trekson said:
A church service, yes but THE church and the Body of Christ are the same thing. We are to have one mind and one purpose working together in unity. A bunch of scattered individual cells does not a Body make, imo.
I agree with that as an 'ideal'.
However, in practice 'sola scriptura' is rife and has led to total controversy, with each saying "thus says the Word of God" or "Oh no it doesn't it says thus" when, if by the 'Word of God' you mean 'the bible', then for sure it does indeed say conflicting and alternative 'thus' things, rendering "one mind and one purpose" an impossibility.
 

BjornFree

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Trekson said:
Hi Oneoff, Could you provide some examples please?
Those who believe that there are none are best left (in the words of the song) in the state of "Where ignorance is bliss it is folly to be wise".
There is no mileage in undermining 'faith' that is 'happy as it is'.
I presume you mean examples of the ambiguities/contradictions that underpin over 30;000 different "thus says the word of God" denominations, each based on their different emphases.
 

Trekson

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Hi Oneoff, Your words: "then for sure it does indeed say conflicting and alternative 'thus' things, rendering "one mind and one purpose" an impossibility"

When you're speaking of man's interpretations of what the Word of God says, then I agree, however your quote seems to imply that the word of God itself is contradictory. That there are minor contradictions over miniscule things is true, however I don't believe there are any regarding the major tenets of our faith. Are you saying otherwise?
 

BjornFree

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Trekson said:
I don't believe there are any regarding the major tenets of our faith. Are you saying otherwise?
Enough to have persuaded many that what they believe is sufficiently different and important to have justified dividing the Body of Christ by the formation of a denomination based upon their beliefs.
Would they have done that for matters other than major tenets of faith?
Baptism, OSAS or OSnotAS, the 4th commandment, the return of Christ, an understanding of the trinity, the degree of inerrancy of the Bible, the first and second resurrection, eternal torment in the Lake of Fire, annihilationism, universal reconciliation, etc.,etc.(all based on biblical interpretations).
 

amadeus

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Oneoff said:
What is my 'Ideal Church'?
I gradually grew into 'faith' in a small independant chapel opposite my parents home.
They sent me to the Sunday school at the age of 5 (1940) so that they could enjoy a quite Sunday afternoon.
I grew into full active membership but by 1965, after I had moved away due to a job change, I returned only to find that it had imploded in a way that they had taught me ought not to be possible for those who practised their 'pacifist' reliance on the deference of Christ's Sermon on the Mount.
50 years have since passed, during which time the vast majority of assemblies have developed into 'pop concerts', and/or have come to rely on 'signs and wonders' to a degree that I find to be so distracting (and even abhorrent in the case of those who practice Benny Hinn/Tod Bentley style 'Slain in the Spirit' stuff) that I am no longer able to worship with a "Godly reverence and awe'.

What then is my 'Ideal Church'
I guess it would be one where I was the originator and sole member ...... And that, in fact, is the one which I currently attend!

Regards to a few old friends who I find to be posting here......Mike
I have another friend who believes somewhat like you in that he finally stopped attending any church meetings regularly because he stood by himself on a number of doctrines. That is a lonely place and it is not the right place as I see it. The right place is the one, I believe, is where in spite of doctrinal differences people treat each other as brothers in the Lord. Is this not the "charity" of I Corinthians 13:4-7? Unfortunately many assemblies will not allow that and define certain essentials for anyone who would be a regular member in good fellowship with the rest. This is hardly what Jesus did, is it?
 
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mjrhealth

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stopped attending any church meetings regularly because he stood by himself on a number of doctrines
sad thing is Christ stands alone so much because of mens doctrines. How can one ever be alone when one is in Christ. I will never leave thee nor forsake thee... Cna never go back to church now that I know Christ.
 

marksman

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If you’ve been a church for forty years and struggle to get 40 people to attend every Sunday, something is wrong. If your kids don’t want to go and can’t wait to leave, something is wrong. If you’re sitting in church wondering how soon you will be able to get on with your day, something is wrong! Many Christians have turned attending church into a simple formality added to one’s to-do list of weekend plans. If your kids would rather play sports than attend church, something is wrong! Not with them, but with the church they attend.

Let me share some of my experiences I’ve had while searching for a church. In one church a woman started to give a message in tongues and she was escorted out for “causing a disturbance”! In another church, they had the best music but their SS material stated that “a Christian is never supposed to fight with devil, we are only to plead the blood of Jesus for protection”!! Which kind of defeats the whole “armor of God” thing, in my opinion. They were also quite legalistic. In another church the pastor was giving a demonstration on how to witness. He had a member of the congregation come up and role play the ‘sinner”. Here is how it went, word for word:
Pastor: “Do you know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior”?
Sinner: “No”
Pastor: “Would you like to?”
Sinner: “Yes”
Pastor: “Let us pray”
Pastor: “There, do you see how easy that was. That’s all it takes to lead someone to the Lord!”

It was all I could do to not laugh out loud. That might work if someone is on their deathbed, moments away from death but for your average neighbor, friend or co-worker, it would not go like that at all.

Another church I attended took up the offering and the pastor’s wife sat down in front of the church facing the congregation and started counting the money right there! I thought that was kind of tacky. A different church I attended for a short time refused to discuss end times even in a small group setting as they believed it was too controversial and the pastor, in his sermons, made several biblical interpretational errors.

The last church I attended was a-millennial which means they don’t believe Christ is coming back and we are in that prophesied kingdom now. They symbolize all of Revelations and do not believe in a literal interpretation at all. In another church, the song leader was very talented but instead of leading the congregation she would go off on a musical journey which the congregation couldn’t follow so instead of singing along we all just sat there, listening. It’s been frustrating to say the least but several years ago the Lord showed me what church should be like and I will share what he showed me.

The other day I was kind of wondering to myself why other people can’t see what I see? Why are they satisfied with the status quo? The Lord spoke to me then and said, “because they haven’t seen what I’ve showed you”. Then He put this verse in my mind from Prov. 29:18 – “Where there is no vision, the people perish…” followed by Hos. 4:6 – “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge…” So I kind of incredulously thought out loud, “You mean other believers don’t realize this”!? He didn’t answer me again so I thought it must be time to share what I was shown.

First, we need to set some parameters, so ideally, the church building would have a nursery, a good-sized fellowship hall with a near-by kitchen and several classrooms. The kitchen, nursery and fellowship hall would all have speakers so people in them wouldn’t feel left out of the service. It would also have a family-friendly sanctuary and an outdoor play area. Good musicians would also be needed. If the church is small then you have a goal to work towards. Now many things depend on the size and needs of the congregation because it would be THEIR church, not the pastor’s!

I’ve seen too many churches fall apart whenever the pastor leaves because the church doesn’t have their own identity. The local Body of Christ should know and be aware of the needs of their community and be willing to serve in whatever direction God leads them and any new pastor coming in should adapt to the church’s calling and identity, NOT expect them to change everything because the new pastor wants to go outside the local church’s calling.

The church service itself would most likely be different from anything you’ve experienced. It would start with a theme song like “This is the Day the Lord Has Made”, of course as I write this, things might be a little different depending on the desires of the congregation. This would be followed by praise reports and testimonies about what God has been doing in the lives of the congregation and/or the ministries of the church. Then would come prayer requests and as each request is given the whole congregation prays for that need right at that moment instead of them being grouped into a generic all-inclusive, non-specific prayer that is generally the case in most churches.

When that is completed, instead of ushers going around the church collecting offerings, the collection plates would be up front upon the altars where we would go to present our offering to the Lord. I think this is a little more humbling and puts WHY we are giving our money to God in the forefront of our minds. After all, it’s called an “offering” for a reason!
The service itself would be a little longer because every Sunday there would be a congregational meal and the church would decide if it wants to be a breakfast, brunch or lunch following the guidelines of Acts 2:42, 46. There would be alternative foods for those who may suffer from salt, sugar or gluten issues and/or food allergies. There would be no evening service. The meal time would be our time of fellowship which would lead to stronger bonds within the Body then your typical two or three minute, “meet and greet”.

Following the meal would be our non-traditional Sunday School. (Notice there hasn’t been a sermon or a song service yet.) The church’s focus would be on teaching ages 10 and up how to fulfill the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19-20 and on Body Life in general. It would focus on practical issues like how to witness/evangelize, learning what your spiritual gift is and how it functions within the Body, various apologetics like how to reach an evolutionist or why we believe abortion is wrong. There would also be teachings on preparing for the end times and what the church might expect in the future and how to be the church if the corporate setting is no longer allowed.

Kids 10 and up would learn what is and is not acceptable behavior in the House of the Lord but they would also be included in the classes. People tend to forget that children can have spiritual gifts too, although they might change as they grow older. Children are our most precious resource for the continuation of the Body of Christ as a whole. They naturally long to be part of something greater then themselves and when raised right and given the opportunity, they like to help out those less fortunate then themselves. When treated with respect mostly they respond in kind. All members of the congregation, even kids, would be called by the title Brother or Sister to remind ourselves that we are part of a larger family, the Family of God!

After the lessons it would be time to head back to the sanctuary for our closing which would involve members of the congregation sharing through song or word what the Lord had put on their heart. This would be followed by a short, themed message by the pastor. The closing part of the service would be the song service. It would be full of loud, praise-filled, foot-stomping, hand-clapping music geared to charge us up and strengthen our faith for the week ahead. The bible tells us to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord” and that “God inhabits the praises of His people”! Of course, we would make allowances for when the Holy Spirit decides He wants to be worshiped, but it would be HIS decision. We would not force Him to be in a time box of our choosing. When the gifts of the spirit are flowing freely, then we come to the point where we will recognize and obey what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. Too often it seems like the Holy Spirit is no longer invited to our services or allowed to follow His own agenda.

There would be no mid-week service. In lieu of that, it would have family oriented, ministry based small groups. These ministries could be community based or Body based; such as community food shelters, pregnancy centers or the homeless and within the Body there might be seniors in need of assistance or a family going through a hard time. Hospital/Nursing Homes visitation would also be considered a small group ministry.

If the church starts to get too large then we would divide our spiritual gifts and branch off into a new location but continuing what we have learned from the start.

So, you guys tell me, does this sound like something you would like?
A simple answer NO. Because it is nothing like the New Testament Church.