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One of the Best Explanations I've seen on Satan's sin.

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Cassandra, Oct 4, 2021.

  1. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    Satan fell before man was created.
    his testing/corrupting humankind is secondary.
    in part the creation, fall & redemption of mankind is an answer by God to the affront Satan makes to God in corrupting 1/3 of the angels, all of whom pre-exist mankind.
     
  2. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    You guys really need to come up with a timestamp on that.
    Or a scripture that says the fall occurred ______________
     
  3. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    Ezekiel 28

    he was placed in Eden, covered with every precious gem, and walking among the fiery stones.
    now go back to Genesis 1-2 and, do you see Eden described as fiery stones and minerals? or as plant & animal life?

    and go to Isaiah 45:18 & read that God did not create the earth void.
    then go back to Genesis 1:2, which comes after verse 1, and ask why the earth is 'void' and covered in water? how did this come to be if it wasn't created void? do we have any other examples in scripture of God covering the earth with water? oh yeah, Genesis 7. in judgement.
    so finding that an earth covered in water is an earth under judgement, ask what could have been judged before the creation of plants and living souls?

    yes, you land in a gap theory. but the alternative is pay these things no attention.
     
  4. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    really??

    have you read Job 1-2 ??
     
  5. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    srsly??

    why is Satan trying to tempt Job into cursing God?
    because Satan is so cool with God???
     
  6. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    wow

    why does it say, "and Satan also was with them" ?
    what's that there for? is it your opinion that this is superfluous unnecessary scripture?

    why does God ask Satan, in front of all the other angels, where he has been?
    do you imagine that omniscient God doesn't know the answer to this question?
    since God already knows, why is He making Satan confess the answer?
    who is there listening? and what is the significance to them of Satan being questioned & having to openly confess the answer?

    don't read the Bible too quickly.
    ask questions, think, meditate and study.
     
  7. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    wow

    his very name in Job is "The Adversary"
    read chapters 1 & 2 again, very slowly.
    is The Adversary for God or against God?
    is he glorifying God or impugning God's character?
     
  8. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Well-Known Member

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    Great explanation Grailhunter, so we are deceived in thinking that the war in heaven when Lucifer rebelled against God, is a misconception and that Lucifer was not the top Angel who rebelled against God, but the planet Venus, the morning star, that it was a misuse of words because the Latin language did not exist at the time of the Old Testament? So who was Satan and where was Satan at the time of the war in heaven?
     
  9. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    You got something going on here but I do not see anything about Satan.
     
  10. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Job is a major study in collage. So if you got a point.
     
  11. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Job's love of God, his faithfulness was being tested.
     
  12. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Hebrew for Satan....adversary or accuser....even prosecutor.
    King David numbered his army because of his adversary (Satan)....the word does not mean Satan there, it is reflecting David's concern for the strength of his arm against his enemy.
    If it was Satan's job to roam the earth and monitor the righteousness of Man, he would be a prosecutor.
    If he just walks into God's throne roam that does not suggest an enemy of war. If he was cast out he could not come back....I don't think he had a visa. The tone of the conversation is not suggestive of two enemies.

    There is no conversation in the OT, God nor prophet warns anyone of the devil or Hell. Nor is the devil or Hell described. The devil and Hell...very significant....if it was a concern in the OT it would have been discussed.
    Again, the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews did not believe in the devil or Hell. To this day, they still do not believe in a devil or Hell. So who does Christian deal with this. Some will say that the Jews never understood the Hebrew Bible!

    Now it typical of a newer religion to redefine the older texts...Even the Jews did this as time went on, they redefined things in the OT. But the Christians could not understand how there could not be a devil in the OT so they Christianized the Hebrew Bible to put him there....and reinterpreted the rest. It is typical...LOL...the New Agers think we have no clue what the Old or New Testaments mean.
     
  13. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea how you came up with this from what I said.
    Part of being knowledgeable is acknowledging the information that is not there. If you do not, people are tempted to make things up or try to connect really fuzzy dots to come up with a picture.

    Yes the word Lucifer comes from the Latin and yes it means Venus....the goddess or the planet. And no, there was no honest reason to translate it in the Old Testament or to bring it into the English.

    Post 72 explains a lot about Satan and the Old Testament.

    The war between God and Satan.....the fall of angels.....when did it happen? Why did it happen? What are the details of the war? The fall, the cast out....did they go to earth? Did they go to Hell? Was the devil and the demons scurrying around tempting and causing trouble? Were they locked up in Hell? When was Hell made? If he was locked up.... when and why did God let him out to mess with people in the New Testament? These questions do not have good biblically answers. So we have to admit that or you will see people going back and rewriting and reinterpreting the Old Testament.

    Some believe that Satan was an important angel....from their speculations ensue.

    The first warning we get about the devil....Satan....is in the New Testament.
    There are like 400 years between the testaments....did the fall occur then? We do not know.
    Some speculate but that information is not in the Bible.
    We are talking about a devil in the Old Testament, that would be significant.
    We are talking about Hell in the Old Testament, that would be significant.
    We are talking about a war between God and Satan and angels, that would be significant.
    We are talking about the devil and demons scurrying around in the Old Testament, that would be significant.

    But that is not defined in described or defined in the OT. And the final summary is that the Jews do not believe in Hell...or the devil, so they do not believe in the fall of angels.

    So we do not have a time stamp for the fall. Satan was an angel and what he did was described in job. Was he a tester and or an observer of righteousness, an accuser, or a prosecutor, or all of it? It appears in Job, that these may have been Satan's assignment ....to back this up we can look at....Zechariah chapter 3 where Satan is accusing Joshua before God. Of course God disagrees. So God judged in favor of Job and Joshua.
     
  14. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Well-Known Member

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    I meant that Lucifer was not the fallen Angel we call Satan, perhaps I confused you, I know the war in Heaven happened, I always thought it was Lucifer who rebelled against God, and that Lucifer is Satan and started the war, but by me reading your post, I'm understanding it wasn't Lucifer, but Satan because the word Lucifer didn't exist during that time that when the name was used it meant the morning star Venus.

    I hope this makes more sense, sorry if I confused you and myself.
     
    Grailhunter likes this.
  15. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    Hi Cass... What kind of bird is that on your avatar, with that huge bill???

    I think that interpretation is generally the one believed most most Christians
     
  16. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Active Member

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    Moses wrote the book of Job during Israel’s wandering in the wilderness. It is one of the oldest books in the Hebrew Bible. Since it says that there was “no ones like him in all the earth” it is apparent that Job lived well after the time of Abraham, who was uniquely described as “God's friend”. This places Job at a time after the death of Joseph, but before the time of Moses.

    Job’s name means “Object of Hostility” or "Hated", and his experiences recorded in this account answer two important questions....”Why do innocent people suffer?” And “Why does God allow suffering and wickedness?”

    We have the complete Bible today, which is something the ancient Jews did not have. The identity of the “original serpent” mentioned in Genesis is not clearly identified until Revelation 12:7-12.

    What the Jews did, or did not believe is inconsequential as we know that they were incorrigibly flawed in their understanding of scripture anyway. How else could they have missed their own Messiah and introduced man-made traditions that supplanted scripture? (Matthew 15:7-9)

    Jesus and his apostles cleared up any misunderstandings the disciples may have had concerning their Messiah.

    Are you serious? Jesus was the promised Messiah, which he and the apostles proved scripturally to those who wanted to listen. The Hebrew writings were the only scripture they had. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

    The original "serpent" in Eden was identified as the one who tempted Eve in the garden. No ambiguity there at all.

    Job's experience was to demonstrate the limits of faith that an imperfect human is capable of enduring.....nothing could sway this man's faith in his God and his absolute trust in his ability to save him out of those dire straights, (the origins of which he was not privy to) even if it was by death. Since he believed in the resurrection, he knew that death was not the end of life. (Job 14:14-15)

    Job was not the only man tested if you read what the devil actually said concerning him....
    "And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job?
    Jehovah was taking note of the fact that satan was already observing Job's faithfulness and may well have already been plotting a plan of attack to undo him?


    "There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
    (Job 2:3-5)

    What do we see here? Since God was not responsible for any of Job's trials, even though incited by the devil to afflict him.....God confidently gave the man over to satan to test him as he saw fit, but he put provisos in place for each of them. Satan was permitted to go so far...and no further. But in the second instance we see something different in satan's approach that demonstrates why God allows the righteous to suffer....

    Satan said "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life." He did not say that Job would give everything he had to save his life"....but extended it to "everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life"...that, by extension, includes all of us. If we have the same faith as Job, no matter how severe the trial, we will maintain integrity as Job did, not abandoning God or cursing him when the going gets tough.
    Proverbs 27:11 gives us the principal reason...."Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me."

    This is how we answer satan's challenge when he taunts God because of our actions and beliefs. Do we let satan win, or do we stick to God no matter what?

    What is not widely known is the end result of Job's trails....

    Job 42:12-16....
    "So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning. . . .He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named the first daughter Je·miʹmah, the second Ke·ziʹah, and the third Kerʹen-hapʹpuch. 15 No women in all the land were as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father gave them an inheritance along with their brothers.
    16 After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations. 17 Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."


    Since Job believed in the resurrection, he will be joined by all 20 of his children in the new world to come, no doubt happy to have played a part in proving that satan is a liar....that we do not serve God for selfish reasons. Job represents all of us, but only if we act like he did.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  17. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Job is the proof that at that time, God and Satan were not enemies.

    And yes new religions will reinterpret...New Age groups pretty much think the Jews and mainstream Christians do not understand the Bible....

    If you are going to get into this deep a study you need to dig a little deeper.

    There cannot be a person, place, or thing in the Bible that starts with a "J" They are all "Y" and no one knows were the word Jesus came from. Yahweh....Yeshua....Yob....Yacob....etc.

    The prophesies tell of a human warlord king that would take down the Jewish oppressors and rebuild the temple where sacrifices would continue forever and the kingdom would last forever and the Mosaic Law would be followed by all on earth forever. Different theme all together. Christ is our Messiah, Lord, God and Savior....But "something" changed....that is why the Jews had so many issues with Christ saying He was the Son of God.
     
  18. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Active Member

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    I’m sorry what??? [​IMG] The serpent who deceived the woman, and slandered God by calling him a liar is not an enemy? Are you serious? The one whose influence derailed God’s entire purpose for humanity, introducing sin and death, is still a son in good standing in your opinion?
    He is inciting the most faithful man on earth to see God as causing his calamities for no reason whatsoever, and to sabotage his faith..... and there is no animosity between them? Good grief!

    You are apparently not reading the same scripture that I am....[​IMG]

    I think one of us does anyway....[​IMG]

    Oh please, that old chestnut? Would you like every single English Bible translation in the world to be scrapped just because English translates “Y” as “J”? Nit picking nonsense. You don’t think that God speaks all languages? You think he does not recognize his own name in English? Who invented language in the first place? Do you call Jesus Yeshua? Please.....

    Really? The Messiah was never going to BE God....he was going to be sent by God. (John 17:3)
    Nothing about the Messianic prophesies changed except the Jewish interpretation of them. In Jewish expectation, they had visions of their swashbuckling Messiah coming to rescue them from the Roman yoke, liberating them and re-establishing God’s kingdom in Jerusalem and elevating the Jews as Kings and priests in their God given bit of geography.

    Jesus proved to the Samaritan woman at the well that there was no geographical location where people would worship God in the future.

    The liberation foretold was from the Pharisees and their corrupt teachings. “The lost sheep of the house of Israel” responded to Jesus’ teachings because they got the sense of them.....but because he castigated the Pharisees on every occasion, they plotted to kill him....silencing him, like they did with the prophets that went before him. (Matthew 23)

    The Pharisees hated Jesus because he tore down the ivory tower that they had stationed themselves in and consigned them to Gehenna! That is where ‘the weeping and the gnashing of teeth’ began. It wasn’t the prophesies that were wrong, but the fact that they only saw what they wanted to see in them. Jesus could not be the Messiah because he didn’t elevate them to the status to which they elevated themselves.

    Right from the beginning the Jews proved to be the best example of how NOT to worship Jehovah.
    We learn more from their bad example than we learn from the good examples of the faithful ones in the Bible.

    Christendom of today is a mirror image of apostate Judaism....with many “Christians” imagining that they will be going to heaven.....they will be sadly mistaken IMO. (Matthew 7:21-23)
     
  19. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    I have explained this before....
    Drawing definitive conclusions from vague metaphoric stories can cause false beliefs.
    Never the less, it is human nature.
    The talking serpent....do we have a talking serpent in Christianity?
    Is Satan a serpent?
    When Satan was tempting Christ on the mountain....was that a talking serpent.
    Does the name Satan appear in Genesis?
    Do the Jews believe that was Satan?
    If the Serpent was Satan....did God know that? Why not say it.
    Is there a scripture that says the words....and Satan is a devil?

    Christianity believes things about the Hebrew Bible that are not there.
    What are the prophets? Did God give them information? If so, and they knew that Satan was a devil, they would have made that clear...an entity that is the enemy of God and man. Front page news wouldn't you think?

    If the prophets knew that the messiah would be the Son of God...a God, that would fill the prophetic book of the Hebrew Bible. Dancing in the streets and shouting from the mountain tops. Whatever else they had to say....what else would trump that? Fill the prophetic book! Nearly every page. What it would not be, is something that you would have to comb the scriptures to find something that would suggest He would be a God.

    The issue is that we know that Satan became a devil and most do not understand why that was not made clear in the Hebrew Bible.
    When did the fall of the angels occur? When did Satan became a devil? That is a debate...but it is not going to be resolved from the information in the Hebrew Bible.

    It is easy to call all the Jews stupid....but it is not the case....Paul and the rest of the Apostles were Jews...not stupid. They came to know that Satan was a devil...but they did not tell us when the fall occurred or when Satan became a devil.

    You can explain that? But that still does not erase the fact that the prophets saw an eternal temple.

    Nit picking? God's name nit picking? In my beliefs, God's name is important and deserves to be in the Bible. Paul said there was only one name that could be called upon for salvation. A little important. The J slam was part of the effort to remove God's name from the Old and New Testament. The name of God the Father or God the Son is no longer in the Bible. I have a problem with that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021
  20. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Well-Known Member

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    Is that one of these new liberal Bibles that have changed everything in it because it doesn't fit with the politically correct society, soon they'll add to it that homosexuality is ok.
     
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