Original Sin

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marks

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1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Two men, the First Adam, and the Last Adam. The first Adam is of the earth, earthy, created from the ground. The Second Man, there are two men.

And in the first, all die. In the Second, all shall be made alive.

All die in Adam.

Coming back to the beginning of the chapter,

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel . . . Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, buried, and risen again, according to the Scriptures.

I long thought it a good question, where does Scripture tell us a 3rd Day resurrection?

There's Jonah, given as a sign. Isaac, as Abraham walks 3 days to the mountain.

And there is The Third Day.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Interestingly, God repeats this, the fruit tree, yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself.

Two trees were in the middle of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life, each tree yielding fruit after it's kind, whose seed is in itself.

Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek, being in the loins of Abraham. Figurative language? Or reality?

What exactly did God create? A vast collection of individuals, each determining their own final destiny according to their own individual actions?

Or did God create Humanity, which unfolds over the ages, the successive generations of the First Man? In Adam, all die, and in Christ, all are made alive.

I suggest that when Adam ate from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, that he was given that knowledge, and this was the immediate consequence of Original Sin.

Adam had been given life by God, which is to know Him, though it was as a separate being.

Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

This shows both a seperateness from God, as well as a greater perception of God, than we have today. But now God lives in us, has joined us to Himself. And that is something amazing!

Adam's life was to know God, and to be alive. There was no right or wrong, only 1 thing only, don't eat from that tree. Otherwise, he could do anything he chose. He was innocent, and there was no concern over right or wrong.

When Adam ate from the tree, he became aware of the intrinsic nature of good and evil, and this affected him in a way that continued on in those generated from him. It forever changed how he would live his life. It was not the way God designed for us.

Simply put, humanity had been ruined. The result of this knowledge, and God's subsequent subjection of His creation to vanity shows itself in every person since. And when God gave the Law, it was like putting the knowledge of good and evil on steroids.

In Adam, all die.

This is crystal clear.

In Christ, all are made alive. When we trust in Jesus, we come back out of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the law of sin and death, and into the Tree of Life, who rose again on the third day, His seed in Him. We are risen in Him, and now share in the life of life in the Spirit of Christ.

Much love!

@Grailhunter @Giuliano @Prayer Warrior @amadeus @charity @Ron Coates @Ronald Nolette @YeshuaFan1 @Heart2Soul @Hidden In Him And of course everyone else . . .
 
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Grailhunter

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1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Two men, the First Adam, and the Last Adam. The first Adam is of the earth, earthy, created from the ground. The Second Man, there are two men.

And in the first, all die. In the Second, all shall be made alive.

All die in Adam.

Coming back to the beginning of the chapter,

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel . . . Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, buried, and risen again, according to the Scriptures.

I long thought it a good question, where does Scripture tell us a 3rd Day resurrection?

There's Jonah, given as a sign. Isaac, as Abraham walks 3 days to the mountain.

And there is The Third Day.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Interestingly, God repeats this, the fruit tree, yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself.

Two trees were in the middle of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life, each tree yielding fruit after it's kind, whose seed is in itself.

Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek, being in the loins of Abraham. Figurative language? Or reality?

What exactly did God create? A vast collection of individuals, each determining their own final destiny according to their own individual actions?

Or did God create Humanity, which unfolds over the ages, the successive generations of the First Man? In Adam, all die, and in Christ, all are made alive.

I suggest that when Adam ate from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, that he was given that knowledge, and this was the immediate consequence of Original Sin.

Adam had been given life by God, which is to know Him, though it was as a separate being.

Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

This shows both a seperateness from God, as well as a greater perception of God, than we have today. But now God lives in us, has joined us to Himself. And that is something amazing!

When Adam ate from the tree, he became aware of the intrinsic nature of good and evil, and this affected him in a way that continued on in those generated from him. It forever changed how he would live his life. It was not the way God designed for us.

Simply put, humanity had been ruined.

In Adam, all die, but in Christ, all are made alive. And when we trust in Jesus, we come back out of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the law of sin and death, and into the Tree of Life, who rose again on the third day, His seed in Him. We are risen in Him.

Much love!

@Grailhunter @Giuliano @Prayer Warrior @amadeus @charity @Ron Coates @Ronald Nolette @YeshuaFan1 @Heart2Soul @Hidden In Him And of course everyone else . . .

Of course you are not going to fine the term "Original Sin" in the Bible and it would be easy enough to find a conversion about babies with sin, or that a sin passes to their children. As I noted in the other thread, the Mosaic Law did not require a sin offering for conception or pregnancy. Historically theological terms that are not in the Bible are promoted by someone, or group that wants you to believe in something that is not there....or it would be there.
 

amadeus

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@marks
They ate the forbidden fruit and obtained what? Death!

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

So then being dead, was not the knowledge of good and evil received also dead knowledge? What does a dead man know?
.
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

Fortunately for us...

"....I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10




 

marks

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the term "Original Sin"
I use this as the commonly used term, much like someone will say "Trinity". But I note your exception to the term.

Perhaps we could say, "the first sin committed by man", and be more precise. Yet even so, in Adam, all die.

My primary goal in this thread is so show a more full picture of what sin in people is. As a part of ruined humanity, we are condemned. But when we are transfered by Christ's death into the new humanity, the Second Man, we have eternal life, because the Second Man has life in Himself.

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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I use this as the commonly used term, much like someone will say "Trinity". But I note your exception to the term.

Perhaps we could say, "the first sin committed by man", and be more precise. Yet even so, in Adam, all die.

My primary goal in this thread is so show a more full picture of what sin in people is. As a part of ruined humanity, we are condemned. But when we are transfered by Christ's death into the new humanity, the Second Man, we have eternal life, because the Second Man has life in Himself.

Much love!

The moral to the story of the Paradise of Delights is a good debate.
Over all, calling it the down fall of Man....is a good overview....the rest is debatable.
 

marks

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The moral to the story of the Paradise of Delights is a good debate.
Over all, calling it the down fall of Man....is a good overview....the rest is debatable.
To me, it's a very intergral part in understanding what happened to humanity, and what God did to return us to Himself. The reversal of this bad choice is our justification.

And as we know on this forum if on none other, everything seems to be debatable!

:)

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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To me, it's a very intergral part in understanding what happened to humanity, and what God did to return us to Himself. The reversal of this bad choice is our justification.

And as we know on this forum if on none other, everything seems to be debatable!

:)

Much love!
Start with, what did Adam and Eve do that was so bad that God judged all of humanity on their error? Just two people. He could have just killed them and started over. What did they do?
 

Jane_Doe22

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In Adam, all die.

This is crystal clear.

In Christ, all are made alive. When we trust in Jesus, we come back out of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the law of sin and death, and into the Tree of Life, who rose again on the third day, His seed in Him. We are risen in Him, and now share in the life of life in the Spirit of Christ.

Much love!
(shortened your op just for length)

Different people define "Original Sin" different ways. Obviously yes Adam did do wrong. Yes Adam did die, and every person born will die. Yes, every human has the temptation/inclination to sin, and they inevitably will sin by adulthood. Those are all agreed upon.

The questions of contention are:
- Does a newborn babe have culpability for a sin they never committed? (Namely Adam's sin)
- Is a newborn babe whom dies sent to eternal torture?

That what people actually get rallied up about, and just looking at scripture they'll give you a million different answers. It's not crystal clear.

As for my answers to the above questions: no & no.
 
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Waiting on him

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(shortened your op just for length)

Different people define "Original Sin" different ways. Obviously yes Adam did do wrong. Yes Adam did die, and every person born will die. Yes, every human has the temptation/inclination to sin, and they inevitably will sin by adulthood. Those are all agreed upon.

The questions of contention are:
- Does a newborn babe have culpability for a sin they never committed? (Namely Adam's sin)
- Is a newborn babe whom dies sent to eternal torture?

That what people actually get rallied up about, and just looking at scripture they'll give you a million different answers. It's not crystal clear.

As for my answers to the above questions: no & no.
In the op it stated all shall be made alive.
 

Grailhunter

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Dead knowledge, yes, I think so! Death unto death.

Much love!
Ok, knowledge of good and evil....Hmmm. Knowledge of good and evil acquired by eating the fruit of the tree. Not a normal way for humans to get an education....if so I would be the wisest man on earth lol
 
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charity

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1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Two men, the First Adam, and the Last Adam. The first Adam is of the earth, earthy, created from the ground. The Second Man, there are two men.

And in the first, all die. In the Second, all shall be made alive.

All die in Adam.

Coming back to the beginning of the chapter,

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel . . . Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, buried, and risen again, according to the Scriptures.

I long thought it a good question, where does Scripture tell us a 3rd Day resurrection?

There's Jonah, given as a sign. Isaac, as Abraham walks 3 days to the mountain.

And there is The Third Day.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Interestingly, God repeats this, the fruit tree, yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself.

Two trees were in the middle of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life, each tree yielding fruit after it's kind, whose seed is in itself.

Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek, being in the loins of Abraham. Figurative language? Or reality?

What exactly did God create? A vast collection of individuals, each determining their own final destiny according to their own individual actions?

Or did God create Humanity, which unfolds over the ages, the successive generations of the First Man? In Adam, all die, and in Christ, all are made alive.

I suggest that when Adam ate from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, that he was given that knowledge, and this was the immediate consequence of Original Sin.

Adam had been given life by God, which is to know Him, though it was as a separate being.

Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

This shows both a seperateness from God, as well as a greater perception of God, than we have today. But now God lives in us, has joined us to Himself. And that is something amazing!

Adam's life was to know God, and to be alive. There was no right or wrong, only 1 thing only, don't eat from that tree. Otherwise, he could do anything he chose. He was innocent, and there was no concern over right or wrong.

When Adam ate from the tree, he became aware of the intrinsic nature of good and evil, and this affected him in a way that continued on in those generated from him. It forever changed how he would live his life. It was not the way God designed for us.

Simply put, humanity had been ruined. The result of this knowledge, and God's subsequent subjection of His creation to vanity shows itself in every person since. And when God gave the Law, it was like putting the knowledge of good and evil on steroids.

In Adam, all die.

This is crystal clear.

In Christ, all are made alive. When we trust in Jesus, we come back out of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the law of sin and death, and into the Tree of Life, who rose again on the third day, His seed in Him. We are risen in Him, and now share in the life of life in the Spirit of Christ.

Much love!
'I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:
therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
.. That thou mayest love the LORD thy God,
.... and that thou mayest obey His voice,
...... and that thou mayest cleave unto Him:
........ for He is thy life, and the length of thy days:
that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers,
to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.'

(Deu 30:19)

Hello @marks

You have enticed me back! :)
In your OP I see:-

Two trees: each bringing forth fruit after his kind
Two men: similarly bringing forth fruit after his kind.
(the first: because of the fall, bringing forth fruit which leads unto death.)
(the second: because of His own sinlessness, bringing forth fruit unto life eternal)​
Two choices: Death or Life.​

'Now therefore fear the LORD,
and serve Him in sincerity and in truth:
and put away the gods
which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt;
and serve ye the LORD.
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD,
choose you this day whom ye will serve;
whether the gods which your fathers served
that were on the other side of the flood,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:
but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.'

(Joshua 24:14-15)

* Both of these portions of Scripture that I have quoted, though spoken to the children of Israel, none the less have an application to us too: for the choice for us is as clear and stark as it was for them. They were to choose either Life or Death, the blessing or the curse. The same is true for each one of us: we either continue in Adam; or by God's grace, trust in the all-sufficient sacrifice of His only begotten Son, and thereby come into Christ: ('But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:'1 Cor. 1:30)

'For what is a man advantaged,
if he gain the whole world,
and lose himself, or be cast away?

(Luke 9:25)

Praise God!

Thank you, marks,
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Prayer Warrior

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1 Corinthians 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Two men, the First Adam, and the Last Adam. The first Adam is of the earth, earthy, created from the ground. The Second Man, there are two men.

And in the first, all die. In the Second, all shall be made alive.

All die in Adam.

Coming back to the beginning of the chapter,

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The Gospel . . . Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, buried, and risen again, according to the Scriptures.

I long thought it a good question, where does Scripture tell us a 3rd Day resurrection?

There's Jonah, given as a sign. Isaac, as Abraham walks 3 days to the mountain.

And there is The Third Day.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Interestingly, God repeats this, the fruit tree, yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself.

Two trees were in the middle of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life, each tree yielding fruit after it's kind, whose seed is in itself.

Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek, being in the loins of Abraham. Figurative language? Or reality?

What exactly did God create? A vast collection of individuals, each determining their own final destiny according to their own individual actions?

Or did God create Humanity, which unfolds over the ages, the successive generations of the First Man? In Adam, all die, and in Christ, all are made alive.

I suggest that when Adam ate from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, that he was given that knowledge, and this was the immediate consequence of Original Sin.

Adam had been given life by God, which is to know Him, though it was as a separate being.

Genesis 3:8 "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

This shows both a seperateness from God, as well as a greater perception of God, than we have today. But now God lives in us, has joined us to Himself. And that is something amazing!

Adam's life was to know God, and to be alive. There was no right or wrong, only 1 thing only, don't eat from that tree. Otherwise, he could do anything he chose. He was innocent, and there was no concern over right or wrong.

When Adam ate from the tree, he became aware of the intrinsic nature of good and evil, and this affected him in a way that continued on in those generated from him. It forever changed how he would live his life. It was not the way God designed for us.

Simply put, humanity had been ruined. The result of this knowledge, and God's subsequent subjection of His creation to vanity shows itself in every person since. And when God gave the Law, it was like putting the knowledge of good and evil on steroids.

In Adam, all die.

This is crystal clear.

In Christ, all are made alive. When we trust in Jesus, we come back out of that tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the law of sin and death, and into the Tree of Life, who rose again on the third day, His seed in Him. We are risen in Him, and now share in the life of life in the Spirit of Christ.

Much love!

@Grailhunter @Giuliano @Prayer Warrior @amadeus @charity @Ron Coates @Ronald Nolette @YeshuaFan1 @Heart2Soul @Hidden In Him And of course everyone else . . .
Hey, marks, thanks for the invitation! I'll be participating when I have time.
 
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