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Osas

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Elf, Mar 25, 2008.

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  1. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    OSAS, can it be proved or disproved with scripture?
     
  2. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    (Elf;42508)
    OSAS, can it be proved or disproved with scripture?
    All I know is I was given "ETERNAL life" as it says in John 3:15 when I was saved--not temporary life until my next sin. It is also called "EVERLASTING life" as it says in John 3:16. To my simple mind both "Eternal" and "Everlasting" mean it has NO endI thank God that He is loving, patient, full of grace and mercy! This May 18 will be 45 years that I have been saved. Although I have failed the Lord at times, He has promised, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5 The Holy spirit is inside me and has promised NEVER to leave me nor forsake me. In Eph. 4:30 we are "sealed unto the day of redemption" by the Holy Spirit. God's seals cannot be broken--certainly not by me. God is a loving Father Who is forgiving. When one of His own goes back into the world, like the story of the 90 and 9 sheep, He will search for that one until he/she is found and will rejoice in bringing him back to Him. We don't lose our salvation; we just lose our way sometimes because we take our eyes off of Jesus and put them on our circumstances--just as Peter did on the water in Matt. 14;30.
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Elf;42508)
    OSAS, can it be proved or disproved with scripture?
    Yes it can if you take the whole of scripture into context if you just use verses out of context you will have contadicting views sense there are no contradictions in Gods word the whole of the message through all scripture must be taken into account it trumps single verse's the verse's Jon-marc used only tell us of the promise/ contract God makes with us and God does not break his promises However that is only half the story the full story is We having free will can choose to break that contract our selfs God only promises us if we stay in the faith if we do not follow false prophets if we stay in his laws then he will keep his promise/contract with us its all on you keeping your part Or it will be as he says I will say I never knew you,I will spue you from my mouth. This is said to those who believed but followed men rather than God,false prophets that led people astray, Luke warm believers.ectOf course no one admitts to being any of these but I tell you I see it everday people who choose to follow men over God No matter how many scriptures you show them that its not what God says they would rather follow traditions of men rather than God.14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.you dont keep the faith you dont receive the promise simple as that no OSASMat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
     
  4. Jackie D

    Jackie D New Member

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    it isn't that OSAS is any more right or any more wrong than those who oppose the teaching....it is that it is incomplete. Salvation is the doctrine that it stems from. If we read what Paul clearly says regarding the doctrine of salvation we would see that both sides of the coin are correct but one sided. In order for us to completely grasp the doctrine of salvation we must incorporate both the head side of the coin and the tail side of the coin....and as a coin is still a coin though both sides are clearly different, without each side being as it was made to be it would not be a coin. The coin when looking at it on one side compared to the other still equates to the same coin though each side is depicted differently. Each side of the coin has the same properties and make up as the whole of the coin....blessings
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well put Jackie [​IMG]
     
  6. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    I'll repost my super colorful thread ( Yipee!!!) every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
    the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
    which is in heaven."
    [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+7%3A21]Matthew 7:21[/url]
    If once saved always saved is truly taught in the bible how do you explain these verses.​
    Pure In Heart Shall See God
    • "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A3]Matthew 5:3[/url]. ​
    • "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A5]Matthew 5:5[/url].​
    • "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A8]Matthew 5:8[/url].​
    • "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A20]Matthew 5:20[/url].​
    • "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+7%3A21]Matthew 7:21[/url].​
    • "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+10%3A22]Matthew 10:22[/url].​
    • "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+18%3A3]Matthew 18:3[/url].​
    • "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+24%3A13]Matthew 24:13[/url].​
    • "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A16]Mark 16:16[/url].​
    • "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Luke+10%3A25-28]Luke 10:25-28[/url].​
    • "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A3]John 3:3[/url].​
    • "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A5]John 3:5[/url].​
    • "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A16]John 3:16[/url].​
    • "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+5%3A24]John 5:24[/url].​
    • "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+6%3A47]John 6:47[/url].​
    • "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+6%3A54]John 6:54[/url].​
    • "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+12%3A24]John 12:24, 25[/url].​
    • "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+2%3A21]Acts 2:21[/url].​
    • "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+2%3A13]Romans 2:13[/url].​
    • "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+10%3A9]Romans 10:9[/url].​
    • "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+2%3A8]Ephesians 2:8[/url].​
    • "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=2+Timothy+4%3A8]2 Timothy 4:8[/url].​
    • "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+5%3A8]Hebrews 5:8, 9[/url].​
    • "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+1%3A12]James 1:12[/url].​
    • "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+2%3A5]James 2:5[/url].​
    • "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Peter+4%3A17]1 Peter 4:17, 18[/url].​
    • "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+5%3A11]1 John 5:11, 12[/url].​
    "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+1%3A21]Jude 1:21[/url].​
    • "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+2%3A7]Revelation 2:7[/url].​
    • "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+2%3A10]Revelation 2:10[/url].​
    • "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+2%3A11]Revelation 2:11[/url].​
    • "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A5]Revelation 3:5[/url].​
    • "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A11]Revelation 3:11[/url].​
    • "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A21]Revelation 3:21[/url].​
    • "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+21%3A7]Revelation 21:7[/url].​
    • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+22%3A12]Revelation 22:12[/url].​
    • "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+22%3A14]Revelation 22:14[/url].​
    • "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ezekiel+18%3A4]Ezekiel 18:4[/url].​
    There Are No Shortcuts
    The bottom line in all of this is, if we are going to spend eternity with Jesus, we must be born again, meek, love him, pure in heart, converted, baptized, born of the water and the spirit, do the will of our Father, do His commandments, be an overcomer, be obedient, endureth temptation, etc. There are no shortcuts to heaven... If there were, Jesus would not have had to come to this earth, and die for us. We can trace all of the misery and suffering in the world today back to one person's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. If God were to take one unrepentant sinner to heaven with Him, sin would rise up again. ​
    Did you notice in [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A5]Revelation 3:5[/url] that unless you are an overcomer, Jesus will blot your name out of the book of life.The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples, "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Luke+10%3A20]Luke 10:20[/url]. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "Whose names are in the book of life." Phil. 4:3. So if we had only one verse in all of the Bible to show that a person can lose his salvation and that it is conditional, it would be this verse, Revelation 3:5.​
    Now lets look at the following verses from [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+3%3A2-15]1 John 3:2-15[/url]. These verses really go into depth regarding the born again person. Please look at the whole chapter from your Bible and read it.​
    1 [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A2-15]John 3:2-15[/url]
    2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." ​
    3 "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." ​
    4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."​
    5 "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."​
    6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."​
    7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."​
    8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."​
    9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." ​
    10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."​
    15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."your brother in christ Ryan fitz[/FONT]​
    Ok so not as colorful as first thought [​IMG]
     
  7. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jon-Marc;42621)
    All I know is I was given "ETERNAL life" as it says in John 3:15 when I was saved--not temporary life until my next sin. It is also called "EVERLASTING life" as it says in John 3:16. To my simple mind both "Eternal" and "Everlasting" mean it has NO endI thank God that He is loving, patient, full of grace and mercy! This May 18 will be 45 years that I have been saved. Although I have failed the Lord at times, He has promised, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5 The Holy spirit is inside me and has promised NEVER to leave me nor forsake me. In Eph. 4:30 we are "sealed unto the day of redemption" by the Holy Spirit. God's seals cannot be broken--certainly not by me. God is a loving Father Who is forgiving. When one of His own goes back into the world, like the story of the 90 and 9 sheep, He will search for that one until he/she is found and will rejoice in bringing him back to Him. We don't lose our salvation; we just lose our way sometimes because we take our eyes off of Jesus and put them on our circumstances--just as Peter did on the water in Matt. 14;30.
    Scripture does speak as a whole. Is there any more scriptures to support this view? (OSAS) I see where it says sealed, but can this seal be broken? If not, what scriptures point to the OSAS view? There does not seem to be anything solid here. I am not criticizing, just sincerely curious.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.Doesn't sound like OSAS, as OSAS can be easily disproved by God and His Word.
     
  9. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    You mean a Christian can loose their salvation simply by breaking one of God's laws? You mean the 10 commandments? If this is the case, even I can see, no one will be going to heaven. I looked at these 10, and one that sticks out is one I have to ask about, do you love God with all your heart soul and mind? (I believe Jesus said this) all the time? -------------------Couple more questions: Do you believe a Christian is perfect? Can a Christian keep all of God's laws? If not, and he looses his salvation, is it temporary? can he get it back?-------Laws: Do you mean the 10 commandments as well as, not swearing, drinking, smoking, cheating ect....Question: Why would I want to be a Christian if I am required to live a perfect life? Pardon me for saying, but, it sounds like legalism. I know a few Christians who attend church and they swear, smoke, some hang out in bars ect.. are these people going to hell because if this? Why would God expect us to be perfect, didn't He create us? If He did then He knows we are far from perfect. If I decided to become a Christian, I would be saved and on my way to heaven, correct? But what if I sinned one minute and got killed the next and didn't have a chance to ask for forgiveness? Would I go to hell for it? Christianity in this sense sounds very risky. I don't think I can do it. Sounds like I have to work for salvation?Sorry about all these questions, but these are sincere, and I am really trying to figure this all out. I do not mean to offend anyone.
    Sounds pretty serious.
    I can agree with this, but do you think mabey some of these people kept messing up and someone else offered them something less legalistic?
    Sorry you lost me here, can you please explain this a little more?
    Huh, after reading this (Rev), I took this more as a pastor speaking to the church. But I don't see how Mat 7:22 would relate to Rev 3:16. Afterall, why would these people even have power to do such things like cast out devils ect...They, it seems must be doing something right, no? Or does God give this power to anyone who wants it?--Where is the measuring rod? How would anyone know they are doing anything wrong if they have a power to cast out devils, to prophesy and do many wonderful works. Can I say, this seems like a god who takes pleasure in deception. Please correct me where I am wrong.
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well it was me who said scripture as a whole and you most certainly do take scripture as Whole other wise you do have contradicting verses and God Word can not contradict itself if you try to find and answer to OSAS using single verses you can prove both so you have to look at the whole subject throughout scripture to get the right answer And Mat 7:22 and rev3:16 along with others are speaking to believers so they are contradicting statement how can God say you have a promise on one hand and I spue you out of my mouth on the other hand it cant be both.The answer is that when you accept Christ and repent you receive a promise from God a contract God can not break his side but you can break your side of the contract and the promise is broken by you then you are no longer saved. You are promising to keep faith with him and repent and he promises you salvation if you break your promise God no longer reconizes that promise. Now this is not for sinning or normal things we as humans all do but if you chose to worship false gods, lead people astray (away from God), chose to ignore God and follow men ect. You have broken the promise and must recommit to Christ or you fall awayeither way there no OSAS guarntee's
     
  11. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jackie D;42651)
    it isn't that OSAS is any more right or any more wrong than those who oppose the teaching....it is that it is incomplete. Salvation is the doctrine that it stems from. If we read what Paul clearly says regarding the doctrine of salvation we would see that both sides of the coin are correct but one sided. In order for us to completely grasp the doctrine of salvation we must incorporate both the head side of the coin and the tail side of the coin....and as a coin is still a coin though both sides are clearly different, without each side being as it was made to be it would not be a coin. The coin when looking at it on one side compared to the other still equates to the same coin though each side is depicted differently. Each side of the coin has the same properties and make up as the whole of the coin....blessings
    But keep in mind each coin has "unique" distinguishing marks all its own. Whether it be size or figures (markings). And by these "unique" distinguishing marks, we know what their value is. A blind person has to handle a coin to know what it is, though if one is dropped it may also contain it's own "unique" sound. So, the size of a twenty-five scent piece, the figures and marks on it (which are unique) tells us it is a quarter. Same with a penny, nickel, dime, half dollar, and a whole silver dollar. There are no contradictions, another words, you wont find on the back of a quarter, the symbol that is on a dime, ect....So a coin is a coin, "But" the values are quite different and over all, this is the important thing.So in relation to what you just said: "In order for us to completely grasp the doctrine of salvation we must incorporate both the head side of the coin and the tail side of the coin....and as a coin is still a coin though both sides are clearly different, without each side being as it was made to be it would not be a coin. The coin when looking at it on one side compared to the other still equates to the same coin though each side is depicted differently. Each side of the coin has the same properties and make up as the whole of the coin..." Considering both sides of the same coin, explain salvation.----- If one side of a (the) coin is "OSAS" and the other side is "Not OSAS" what does this contradicting coin teach? Since it would equate the same coin. What would the value be: OSAS or Not?
     
  12. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jackie D;42651)
    it isn't that OSAS is any more right or any more wrong than those who oppose the teaching....it is that it is incomplete. Salvation is the doctrine that it stems from. If we read what Paul clearly says regarding the doctrine of salvation we would see that both sides of the coin are correct but one sided. In order for us to completely grasp the doctrine of salvation we must incorporate both the head side of the coin and the tail side of the coin....and as a coin is still a coin though both sides are clearly different, without each side being as it was made to be it would not be a coin. The coin when looking at it on one side compared to the other still equates to the same coin though each side is depicted differently. Each side of the coin has the same properties and make up as the whole of the coin....blessings
    (kriss;42708)
    Well it was me who said scripture as a whole and you most certainly do take scripture as Whole other wise you do have contradicting verses and God Word can not contradict itself if you try to find and answer to OSAS using single verses you can prove both so you have to look at the whole subject throughout scripture to get the right answer And Mat 7:22 and rev3:16 along with others are speaking to believers so they are contradicting statement how can God say you have a promise on one hand and I spue you out of my mouth on the other hand it cant be both.The answer is that when you accept Christ and repent you receive a promise from God a contract God can not break his side but you can break your side of the contract and the promise is broken by you then you are no longer saved. You are promising to keep faith with him and repent and he promises you salvation if you break your promise God no longer reconizes that promise. Now this is not for sinning or normal things we as humans all do but if you chose to worship false gods, lead people astray (away from God), chose to ignore God and follow men ect. You have broken the promise and must recommit to Christ or you fall awayeither way there no OSAS guarntee's
    I think I am starting to see where you coming from, but am not sure I agree, (I am not saying I do not agree). But how can people cast out devils and do all sorts of wonderful things? Does god give his power to just anyone? Could you also give more scripture for your view?Thanks
     
  13. Jackie D

    Jackie D New Member

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    Question: Why would I want to be a Christian if I am required to live a perfect life?
    you are NOT required to be perfect. God knows better. You are required to know that Christ is the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead...those are your only requirements for being saved. Once a person comes to this conclusion regeneration begins, which is a process and in this process the things we do that are sinful begin to fall away, we think twice about the things we do and we strive toward allowing the Lord to remove the sinful things about us. But again, perfection never comes and it is not expected.
    I know a few Christians who attend church and they swear, smoke, some hang out in bars ect.. are these people going to hell because if this?
    for one, we cannot judge a persons soul in this way. I myself, question as to the depth of sin these things are....these are things that a person should listen personally to the Lord about and change what needs to be changed. I smoke, I am sure I am not going to hell because of it.
    But what if I sinned one minute and got killed the next and didn't have a chance to ask for forgiveness? Would I go to hell for it? Christianity in this sense sounds very risky
    a question that you would need to speak to God about I suppose. Again I cannot judge a person's soul based on a sin.....
    Sounds like I have to work for salvation?
    well you can do work for salvation but it won't get you saved only one thing will do that and that was spoken to you in the beginning of my post to you, Elf.Let me ask you this: Do you want to have a relationship with God? Do you believe in Christ? If you answered yes to these, then you are ready for Salvation IMO....
     
  14. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jon-Marc;42621)
    All I know is I was given "ETERNAL life" as it says in John 3:15 when I was saved--not temporary life until my next sin. It is also called "EVERLASTING life" as it says in John 3:16. To my simple mind both "Eternal" and "Everlasting" mean it has NO endI thank God that He is loving, patient, full of grace and mercy! This May 18 will be 45 years that I have been saved. Although I have failed the Lord at times, He has promised, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5 The Holy spirit is inside me and has promised NEVER to leave me nor forsake me. In Eph. 4:30 we are "sealed unto the day of redemption" by the Holy Spirit. God's seals cannot be broken--certainly not by me. God is a loving Father Who is forgiving. When one of His own goes back into the world, like the story of the 90 and 9 sheep, He will search for that one until he/she is found and will rejoice in bringing him back to Him. We don't lose our salvation; we just lose our way sometimes because we take our eyes off of Jesus and put them on our circumstances--just as Peter did on the water in Matt. 14;30.
    Suppose the sheep does not want to come back? What if god cannot find this person before he or she dies? What happens to them now? You did say: (He will search for that one until he/she is found and will rejoice in bringing him back to Him.) No offense but, it would almost seem like a waste of time to search for certain people, especially, as it would seem, many stray. It seems god is very busy.
     
  15. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jon-Marc;42621)
    All I know is I was given "ETERNAL life" as it says in John 3:15 when I was saved--not temporary life until my next sin. It is also called "EVERLASTING life" as it says in John 3:16. To my simple mind both "Eternal" and "Everlasting" mean it has NO endI thank God that He is loving, patient, full of grace and mercy! This May 18 will be 45 years that I have been saved. Although I have failed the Lord at times, He has promised, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee." Heb. 13:5 The Holy spirit is inside me and has promised NEVER to leave me nor forsake me. In Eph. 4:30 we are "sealed unto the day of redemption" by the Holy Spirit. God's seals cannot be broken--certainly not by me. God is a loving Father Who is forgiving. When one of His own goes back into the world, like the story of the 90 and 9 sheep, He will search for that one until he/she is found and will rejoice in bringing him back to Him. We don't lose our salvation; we just lose our way sometimes because we take our eyes off of Jesus and put them on our circumstances--just as Peter did on the water in Matt. 14;30.
    (Jackie D;42715)
    you are NOT required to be perfect. God knows better. You are required to know that Christ is the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead...those are your only requirements for being saved. Once a person comes to this conclusion regeneration begins, which is a process and in this process the things we do that are sinful begin to fall away, we think twice about the things we do and we strive toward allowing the Lord to remove those the sinful things about us. But again, perfection never comes and it is not expected. for one, we cannot judge a persons soul in this way. I myself, question as to the depth of sin these things are....these are things that a person should listen personally to the Lord about and change what needs to be changed. I smoke, I am sure I am not going to hell because of it. a question that you would need to speak to God about I suppose, Again I cannot judge a person's soul based on a sin.....well you can do work for salvation but it won't get you saved only one thing will do that and that was spoken to you in the beginning of my post to you, Elf.Let me ask you this: Do you want to have a relationship with God? Do you believe in Christ? If you answered yes to these, then you are ready for Salvation IMO....
    Thank you for your answers, they are thought provoking. I don't know what I believe anymore, I hear many different stories (gospels), for example: (1) No one will go to hell, everyone will ultimately be saved, (2) If one is saved, he or she cannot loose this salvation, they are held by gods power, (3) One can loose their salvation, if, they wonder away, sin, or break god's laws. (4) the Catholic church teaches there is a purgatory, so if I ain't to bad I could go there for a while, and the Pope will eventually get me out after I have been purged of my sins.Sounds like there are more sides to a coin than two, mabey more like a block (dice) than a coin. It sounds like the luck of the dice. This is why I ask for scriptures to prove a certain view. My honest opinion? I believe my best chances are with OSAS or the Pope. Though, #(1) above, "everyone will ultimately be saved sounds really good, But, just seems to good to be true. To believe that I could loose my salvation after being saved? Good grief, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
     
  16. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jackie D;42715)
    Let me ask you this: Do you want to have a relationship with God? Do you believe in Christ? If you answered yes to these, then you are ready for Salvation IMO....
    What do you mean "ready for salvation?" What would I have to do?
     
  17. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jackie D;42715)
    you are NOT required to be perfect. God knows better. You are required to know that Christ is the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead...those are your only requirements for being saved. Once a person comes to this conclusion regeneration begins, which is a process and in this process the things we do that are sinful begin to fall away, we think twice about the things we do and we strive toward allowing the Lord to remove those the sinful things about us. But again, perfection never comes and it is not expected. for one, we cannot judge a persons soul in this way. I myself, question as to the depth of sin these things are....these are things that a person should listen personally to the Lord about and change what needs to be changed. I smoke, I am sure I am not going to hell because of it. a question that you would need to speak to God about I suppose, Again I cannot judge a person's soul based on a sin.....well you can do work for salvation but it won't get you saved only one thing will do that and that was spoken to you in the beginning of my post to you, Elf.Let me ask you this: Do you want to have a relationship with God? Do you believe in Christ? If you answered yes to these, then you are ready for Salvation IMO....
    (Letsgofishing;42663)
    I'll repost my super colorful thread ( Yipee!!!) every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
    the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
    which is in heaven."
    [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+7%3A21]Matthew 7:21[/url]
    If once saved always saved is truly taught in the bible how do you explain these verses.​
    Pure In Heart Shall See God
    • "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A3]Matthew 5:3[/url]. ​
    • "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A5]Matthew 5:5[/url].​
    • "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A8]Matthew 5:8[/url].​
    • "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+5%3A20]Matthew 5:20[/url].​
    • "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+7%3A21]Matthew 7:21[/url].​
    • "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+10%3A22]Matthew 10:22[/url].​
    • "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+18%3A3]Matthew 18:3[/url].​
    • "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+24%3A13]Matthew 24:13[/url].​
    • "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Mark+16%3A16]Mark 16:16[/url].​
    • "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
    And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Luke+10%3A25-28]Luke 10:25-28[/url].​
    • "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A3]John 3:3[/url].​
    • "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A5]John 3:5[/url].​
    • "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A16]John 3:16[/url].​
    • "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+5%3A24]John 5:24[/url].​
    • "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+6%3A47]John 6:47[/url].​
    • "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+6%3A54]John 6:54[/url].​
    • "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+12%3A24]John 12:24, 25[/url].​
    • "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+2%3A21]Acts 2:21[/url].​
    • "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+2%3A13]Romans 2:13[/url].​
    • "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+10%3A9]Romans 10:9[/url].​
    • "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ephesians+2%3A8]Ephesians 2:8[/url].​
    • "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=2+Timothy+4%3A8]2 Timothy 4:8[/url].​
    • "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+5%3A8]Hebrews 5:8, 9[/url].​
    • "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+1%3A12]James 1:12[/url].​
    • "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=James+2%3A5]James 2:5[/url].​
    • "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+Peter+4%3A17]1 Peter 4:17, 18[/url].​
    • "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+5%3A11]1 John 5:11, 12[/url].​
    "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Jude+1%3A21]Jude 1:21[/url].​
    • "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+2%3A7]Revelation 2:7[/url].​
    • "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+2%3A10]Revelation 2:10[/url].​
    • "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+2%3A11]Revelation 2:11[/url].​
    • "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A5]Revelation 3:5[/url].​
    • "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A11]Revelation 3:11[/url].​
    • "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A21]Revelation 3:21[/url].​
    • "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+21%3A7]Revelation 21:7[/url].​
    • "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+22%3A12]Revelation 22:12[/url].​
    • "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+22%3A14]Revelation 22:14[/url].​
    • "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Ezekiel+18%3A4]Ezekiel 18:4[/url].​
    There Are No Shortcuts
    The bottom line in all of this is, if we are going to spend eternity with Jesus, we must be born again, meek, love him, pure in heart, converted, baptized, born of the water and the spirit, do the will of our Father, do His commandments, be an overcomer, be obedient, endureth temptation, etc. There are no shortcuts to heaven... If there were, Jesus would not have had to come to this earth, and die for us. We can trace all of the misery and suffering in the world today back to one person's disobedience in the Garden of Eden. If God were to take one unrepentant sinner to heaven with Him, sin would rise up again. ​
    Did you notice in [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A5]Revelation 3:5[/url] that unless you are an overcomer, Jesus will blot your name out of the book of life.The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples, "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Luke+10%3A20]Luke 10:20[/url]. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "Whose names are in the book of life." Phil. 4:3. So if we had only one verse in all of the Bible to show that a person can lose his salvation and that it is conditional, it would be this verse, Revelation 3:5.​
    Now lets look at the following verses from [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=1+John+3%3A2-15]1 John 3:2-15[/url]. These verses really go into depth regarding the born again person. Please look at the whole chapter from your Bible and read it.​
    1 [url="http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+3%3A2-15]John 3:2-15[/url]
    2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." ​
    3 "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." ​
    4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."​
    5 "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."​
    6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."​
    7 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."​
    8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."​
    9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." ​
    10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."​
    15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."your brother in christ Ryan fitz​
    Ok so not as colorful as first thought [​IMG]
    There really is a lot to read here, it will take some time. There are a couple verses that catch my attention, if you don't mind may I ask you a couple questions about them?
     
  18. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (thesuperjag;42700)
    John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.Doesn't sound like OSAS, as OSAS can be easily disproved by God and His Word.
    Are you saying you believe in OSAS?
     
  19. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Jackie D;42715)
    you are NOT required to be perfect.
    Doesn't scripture say somewhere: "Be perfect for I am perfect?"
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Elf;42711)
    I think I am starting to see where you coming from, but am not sure I agree, (I am not saying I do not agree). But how can people cast out devils and do all sorts of wonderful things? Does god give his power to just anyone? Could you also give more scripture for your view?Thanks
    Because they act as if they are following God they may even believe it but they are following men have you seen preachers on T.V. doing this they only do it for the Money they are liars they are not following God they are following their own ego's and saying its in Gods name, remember when Jesus turned the money tables over he hates those that are false teachers in his name and yet do not heed his words these are believers who broke their side of the promise and made money and things of this world their godAnd God has given us all power to kick out devils
     
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