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Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Doug, Oct 25, 2018.

  1. Doug

    Doug Member

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    I am of the opion that all references to overcoming is to be applied to Israel and not the Body of Christ.


    The churches in Revelation are churches in the future. The book of Revelation concerns Israel.

    2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

    The tree of life will be found in the new Jerusalem, the future eartly kingdom of Israel.

    21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

    The body of Christ has a future in the heavenly places not the earthly.

    1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

    It is for Israel to reign over the nations on earth.

    2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Revelation 2:26

    5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:10

    The book of life is for Israel.

    3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

    Revelation 21:27 refers once again to the new Jerusalem on earth.

    21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27

    3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

    To him that overcometh will be granted to sit on the throne.

    3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

    To sit on the throne was allocated to the Jews.

    19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

    He that overcometh shall obtain the inheritance.

    21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:7

    Israel will inherit the kingdom.

    25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

    Israel will overcome.

    5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?1 John 5:5
     
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  2. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    Revelations is addressed to both Israel and the Church.

    The seven churches were churches that existed then but because of their characteristics they are used to also refer to the seven Church Ages.

    Indeed a lot of Revelations deals with Israel. But, it also deals with the world as a whole whole. In example, it talks about mountains disappearing, sea life dying, etc.
     
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  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The Church is Israel. The unbelieving Jews are now gentiles until God grafts those who accept Christ back into Israel.
     
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  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    You seem to believe if you say that often enough it will become true. That it will not.
     
  5. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    National Israel is still national Israel, not Gentiles. The promises of God to national Israel will still come to pass as they have been if you read the news, and then all national Israel will join the Church. And then the end will come.
     
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  6. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    Israel has already been restored as a nation and his promises will be fulfilled. But the bible makes it clear that even in the eternity to come they will always be separate entities.

    Here's what the Catholics believe on the subject:
    Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the "new Israel" (cf. CCC 877).
    Israel and the Church | Catholic Answers

    1stCenturyLady is being less than forthcoming here.
     
  7. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Church is spiritual Israel, but that doesn't make national Israel, Gentiles. We have the same God. Unlike Hindus, Muslims, Buddists and whatever other idol worshiping religion there is out there.
     
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  8. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    Never said in the bible
     
  9. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't believe Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists are Gentiles? What is a Gentile to you?

    I don't know what you want from me to say, "1stCenturyLady is being less than forthcoming here." That was unkind. Especially, when your answers are so short and unclear.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. First of all, what is *overcoming*? Is it not resistance to, and conquest over the world, the flesh, and the devil? And is that not a requirement for every believer, Jew or Gentile? But a couple of verses should suffice to show that you are in error.

    ...I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome* the wicked one...I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome* the wicked one. (1 Jn 2:13,14 [the wicked one = Satan]

    *Strong's Concordance (3528)
    nikaó: to conquer, prevail
    Original Word: νικάω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: nikaó
    Phonetic Spelling: (nik-ah'-o)
    Definition:
    to conquer, prevail
    Usage: I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.

    The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to every believer for the purpose of regeneration as well as for the power to overcome.
     
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    A very serious misunderstanding of what is the Church and what is Israel. One could just as well say that up is down, and down is up.
     
  12. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    If you consider circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member of Israel, the only biblical Jews and Israel were the early New Covenant Church in Christ. Because Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross. In and around 70 AD, when that last genuinely circumcised generation died off, the only Biblical Israel left was Christ and believers.
     
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  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    “For all the promises of God in him [Christ] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)
    Only if unbelievers repent and accept Christ do they have any claim to the promises.
     
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    “For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)
    How can unbelievers be Israel?
     
  15. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    Trying to be crafty I see.

    The Church is not spiritual Israel. The roman catholic church is not the Church.
     
  16. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    So, you believe in replacement theology. Why am I not surprised.
     
  17. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

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    Again, not making a point.
     
  18. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    My understanding of the term 'replacement theology' is that it refers to those who believe that where the Bible says Israel, it now means the church. I do think that 1 Cor. 10.32 shows that there are distinct groups of people still.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You are replacing Israel with the broken off Jews whom John calls Antichrists. If ALL the promises are YES if Jesus, how do any apply to unbelievers?
     
  20. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Active Member

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    And again you tried to evade the point.
     
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