Parable Of The Wicked Husbandmen

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings all. Wanted to create a thread to discuss this with everyone, but especially those who believe the Lord is done with Israel in the prophetic scheme of things. I am sending an invite especially to those I know who hold this position (sorry if I forgot anyone), but all are invited to comment if they wish.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden in Him

@brakelite @quietthinker @Dave L @Episkopos

I will quote the Parable as it is described in Luke first, but I can add the version in Matthew as well. Please start by answering my comments that follow.

9 And he began to speak unto the people this parable: A man planted a vineyard, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into another country for a long time.
10 And at the season he sent unto the husbandmen a servant, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11 And he sent yet another servant: and him also they beat, and handled him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12 And he sent yet a third: and him also they wounded, and cast him forth.
13 And the lord of the vineyard said, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; it may be they will reverence him.
14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned one with another, saying, This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16 He will come and destroy these husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17 But he looked upon them, and said, What then is this that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner?
18 Every one that falleth on that stone shall be broken to pieces; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust. (Luke 20:9-18)

Question #1:
I assume most would agree the "far country" the Lord goes into here is a reference to Heaven after the Lord descended upon Mt. Sinai and travelled with the Jews in the cloud and in the pillar of smoke until they finally entered the promised land. The husbandmen would be the Jewish leadership, and the servants the Lord sent would be the prophets.

Who or what is the vineyard? The vineyard in this Parable is Israel, yes?

Thanks in advance to all who participate.

 

[brakelite]

I believe we need to erase from our thought process that God's mercy and grace is unconditional. We need to expunge from our thinking that God does not judge...that He overlooks blatant rebellion. Now don't get me wrong. I am a believer in the grace and mercy of God, without which we cannot...will not be saved. But God does not tolerate open rebellion forever. And if we constantly reject His counsel...spurn His discipline...thumb our noses at His forbearance...we speak of the covenants as if they cannot be broken...they can! They were broken!!! Not by God, but by Israel...yet God's love persisted right up to the end until there was no hope.
Listen to these words from Jeremiah 7. Don't believe for a moment that these words cannot apply to the entire nation of Jesus time., and God's judgement irrevocable.
1 ¶ The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Stand in the gate of the LORD’S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
5 For if ye thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
Are not Christians today claiming the same prerogative...oh, the commandments of God don't matter, so long as we believe in Jesus....
11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
So even 500 years before Jesus, God's house had become a den of thieves...what Jesus was witnessing was not a new thing.
12 But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.
If I did what I did and dispersed Israel till they were no more a people, why should I not do to you the same?
13 And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
14 Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
16 ¶ Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Christian Zionists take note. To what end do you support Zionism when God has already destroyed what remnant or heritage Israel had? What is there in Israel today that belongs to true Godliness?
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
21 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
What changed that Christians today say God still has a chosen nation?
27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.
28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
29 ¶ Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

Never has it been in God's heart to forsake His promises...but they were conditional. All of them. And Israel failed to live up to the criteria God expected of a people who would represent Him to the world. The above parable expresses that. The fruit of the vineyard was kept back for the gratification of the husbandmen. Israel never understood what their purpose was...to be a magnet for the Gentiles to want to know Israel's God. But Israel shut God up in the temple, and built a wall between themselves and the rest of the world. Much the same as many churches do today. Which is why the kingdom...the vineyard, was given to a people who would share the good news with others. Would give the fruit back to the owner. Hence the great commission. God is not a God of just the Jews. He is a God of everyone. There is now no Jew nor Greek. All are one in Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There's a lot of good here.

I still am of the opinion that you focus on the outside of the cup though, rather than the inside. The letter, rather than the spirit, of a matter.

I won't bore you with laying it all out again. I'm convinced God will show you.

I keep confusing two particular men in here over and over again. I was thinking AGAIN for some odd reason, that you are the man who fell out of a coconut tree, so I was going to ask if you were out of the hospital yet, but I'm almost certain you are not him. What is his name? I might get the two of you unconfused finally!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I believe we need to erase from our thought process that God's mercy and grace is unconditional. We need to expunge from our thinking that God does not judge...that He overlooks blatant rebellion. Now don't get me wrong. I am a believer in the grace and mercy of God, without which we cannot...will not be saved. But God does not tolerate open rebellion forever. And if we constantly reject His counsel...spurn His discipline...thumb our noses at His forbearance...we speak of the covenants as if they cannot be broken...they can! They were broken!!! Not by God, but by Israel...yet God's love persisted right up to the end until there was no hope.
Listen to these words from Jeremiah 7. Don't believe for a moment that these words cannot apply to the entire nation of Jesus time., and God's judgement irrevocable.

1 ¶ The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Stand in the gate of the LORD’S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
5 For if ye thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
9 Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10 And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
Are not Christians today claiming the same prerogative...oh, the commandments of God don't matter, so long as we believe in Jesus....
11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
So even 500 years before Jesus, God's house had become a den of thieves...what Jesus was witnessing was not a new thing.
12 But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.
If I did what I did and dispersed Israel till they were no more a people, why should I not do to you the same?
13 And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
14 Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
16 ¶ Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
Christian Zionists take note. To what end do you support Zionism when God has already destroyed what remnant or heritage Israel had? What is there in Israel today that belongs to true Godliness?
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
21 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:
26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
What changed that Christians today say God still has a chosen nation?
27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.
28 But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.
29 ¶ Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.
30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

Thanks. It is always good to read scripture. I think He was talking about Israel's coming judgment at the hands of Babylon rather than anything having to do with New Testament times, but I wanted to focus specifically on the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen in this thread, so let me quote the rest of your post.

Never has it been in God's heart to forsake His promises...but they were conditional. All of them. And Israel failed to live up to the criteria God expected of a people who would represent Him to the world. The above parable expresses that... Which is why the kingdom...the vineyard, was given to a people who would share the good news with others.

So then your interpretation is that the vineyard is the kingdom? By that you must mean the kingdom of God, since the Lord clearly didn't give the kingdom of Israel to anyone else (or am I misunderstanding you?). But if you mean the vineyard was the kingdom of God, how does that coincide with v.15, which describes what they did to Christ? "And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him." The vineyard has to be literal Israel here, more specifically the city of Jerusalem, since they cast him out and crucified Him outside the city walls.

The fruit of the vineyard was kept back for the gratification of the husbandmen. Israel never understood what their purpose was...to be a magnet for the Gentiles to want to know Israel's God. But Israel shut God up in the temple, and built a wall between themselves and the rest of the world.

And what specifically would you say the fruit of the vineyard represents? To draw the Gentiles unto God, or something else?

God is not a God of just the Jews. He is a God of everyone. There is now no Jew nor Greek. All are one in Christ.

This I certainly agree with. Btw, the analogy of comparing rebellious Israel with the modern church is a solid one. The parallels are numerous.

 

[brakelite]

Okay, yes, 'kingdom' was a bad choice of words. A description of this vineyard is given by the prophet Isaiah:
“Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching His vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill; and He fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein; and He looked that it should bring forth grapes.” Isaiah 5:1, 2
So the husbandman chooses a piece of land from the wilderness; he fences, clears, and tills it, and plants it with choice vines, expecting a rich harvest. This plot of ground, in its superiority to the uncultivated waste, he expects to do him honor by showing the results of his care and toil in its cultivation. So God had chosen a people from the world to be trained and educated by Christ. The prophet says,
“The vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant.” Isaiah 5:7.
Upon this people God had bestowed great privileges, blessing them richly from His abundant goodness. He looked for them to honor Him by yielding fruit. They were to reveal the principles of His kingdom. In the midst of a fallen, wicked world they were to represent the character of God. They were to take upon themselves His name. "Gracious and merciful, longsuffering and abundant in goodness and truth". This character Israel was to present to the world, revealing to the world the true nature of the God they served. Unforutnately, the world infected Israel, and they took upon themselves the nature of the heathen nations around about them. This nature they cleaved to to the end of their allotted 490 years...Jesus gave them ample opportunity and numerous warnings to repent...the rulers even recognised this in that they knew Jesus was talking about them in the above parable...but their stubbornness and pride forbid them from repenting and changing, and they killed their own Messiah. And still God was merciful. Even down to the last 3 1/2 years, the disciples were sent to no-one but the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But then, to drive the final nail into their own coffin, they murdered Stephen.
Israel did not fulfill God's purpose. The Lord declared,
“I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?” Jeremiah 2:21.
“Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself.” Hosea 10:1.
“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste; it shall not be pruned nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For ... He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.” Isaiah 5:3-7

The Jewish rulers did not love God; therefore they cut themselves away from Him, and rejected all His overtures for a just settlement. Christ, the Beloved of God, came to assert the claims of the Owner of the vineyard; but the husbandmen treated Him with marked contempt, saying, We will not have this man to rule over us. They envied Christ's beauty of character. His manner of teaching was far superior to theirs, and they dreaded His success. He remonstrated with them, unveiling their hypocrisy, and showing them the sure results of their course of action. This stirred them to madness. They smarted under the rebukes they could not silence. They hated the high standard of righteousness which Christ continually presented. They saw that His teaching was placing them where their selfishness would be uncloaked, and they determined to kill Him. They hated His example of truthfulness and piety and the elevated spirituality revealed in all He did. His whole life was a reproof to their selfishness, and when the final test came, the test which meant obedience unto eternal life or disobedience unto eternal death, they rejected the Holy One of Israel. When they were asked to choose between Christ and Barabbas, they cried out, “Release unto us Barabbas!” Luke 23:18. And when Pilate asked, “What shall I do then with Jesus?” they cried fiercely, “Let Him be crucified.” Matthew 27:22. “Shall I crucify your King?” Pilate asked, and from the priests and rulers came the answer, “We have no king but Caesar.” John 19:15. When Pilate washed his hands, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just person,” the priests joined with the ignorant mob in declaring passionately, “His blood be on us, and on our children.” Matthew 27:24, 25.
Christ would have averted the doom of the Jewish nation if the people had received Him. But envy and jealousy made them implacable. They determined that they would not receive Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. They rejected the Light of the world, and thenceforth their lives were surrounded with darkness as the darkness of midnight. The doom foretold came upon the Jewish nation. Their own fierce passions, uncontrolled, wrought their ruin. In their blind rage they destroyed one another. Their rebellious, stubborn pride brought upon them the wrath of their Roman conquerors. Jerusalem was destroyed, the temple laid in ruins, and its site plowed like a field. The children of Judah perished by the most horrible forms of death. Millions were sold, to serve as bondmen in heathen lands.
As a people the Jews had failed of fulfilling God's purpose, and the vineyard was taken from them. The privileges they had abused, the work they had slighted, was entrusted to others.
Ellen White

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I assume most would agree the "far country" the Lord goes into here is a reference to Heaven after the Lord descended upon Mt

That is what I’ve always heard “far country” means Heaven. How does scripture define ‘far country’?

Isaiah 46:11-13
[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it , I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it , I will also do it. [12] Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: [13] I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

1 Kings 8:41
[41] Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;

2 Kings 20:14
[14] Then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah, and said unto him, What said these men? and from whence came they unto thee? And Hezekiah said, They are come from a far country, even from Babylon.

2 Chronicles 6:32
[32] Moreover concerning the stranger, which is not of thy people Israel, but is come from a far country for thy great name's sake, and thy mighty hand, and thy stretched out arm; if they come and pray in this house;

Isaiah 13:4-5
[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. [5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord , and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

More references...won’t post them all. But I’m asking how do we then say “far country” means heaven?

Luke 15:13
[13] And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

 

[Episkopos]

Who or what is the vineyard? The vineyard in this Parable is Israel, yes?

Thanks in advance to all who participate.

The vineyard is both something seen and something unseen. It does indeed involve Israel...but what is Israel?

We are to be fruitful...bearing a holy fruit. If the root is holy, so are the branches.

So it comes down to where we are living from...the Spirit or the flesh. Those who are of the Spirit are the Israel of God. Those who live by the flesh...even if they are born in natural Israel...are rejected as not bearing the right kind of fruit....the fruit of holiness which is accomplished by entering into Christ by faith.

God holds out a standard. People who refuse that standard are themselves rejected...or rather have eliminated themselves. They stiffen their necks against the pleas of God.

If we are willing and obedient we too can possess the land. But this land is in a spiritual place. We are to sell all we have in this world to gain a treasure in heaven the access of which is by faith.

 

[Hidden In Him]

“Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching His vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill; and He fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein; and He looked that it should bring forth grapes.” Isaiah 5:1, 2

“The vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant.” Isaiah 5:7.

“I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?” Jeremiah 2:21.

“Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself.” Hosea 10:1.

“And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste; it shall not be pruned nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For ... He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.” Isaiah 5:3-7

Excellent verses! And they all the more establish that the vineyard is Israel. I will get back to this in a second.

As a people the Jews had failed of fulfilling God's purpose, and the vineyard was taken from them. The privileges they had abused, the work they had slighted, was entrusted to others.
Ellen White

Now, I agree with much of what she said, but right here what is she interpreting the vineyard to be? Specifically? Is she saying the vineyard is Jerusalem, and it was taken from them?

 

[Hidden In Him]

That is what I’ve always heard “far country” means Heaven. How does scripture define ‘far country’?

Isaiah 46:11-13
[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it , I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it , I will also do it. [12] Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: [13] I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

1 Kings 8:41
[41] Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;

2 Kings 20:14
[14] Then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah, and said unto him, What said these men? and from whence came they unto thee? And Hezekiah said, They are come from a far country, even from Babylon.

2 Chronicles 6:32
[32] Moreover concerning the stranger, which is not of thy people Israel, but is come from a far country for thy great name's sake, and thy mighty hand, and thy stretched out arm; if they come and pray in this house;

Isaiah 13:4-5
[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. [5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord , and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

More references...won’t post them all. But I’m asking how do we then say “far country” means heaven?

Luke 15:13
[13] And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

Well, because the One doing the traveling is God. Depending on which passage you would be applying here, you could say He went to Babylon or some other place on earth, but the natural conclusion would be that He was returning to Heaven. The same allusion was made when Jesus told the disciples, "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am you may be also."

 

[Hidden In Him]

So it comes down to where we are living from...the Spirit or the flesh. Those who are of the Spirit are the Israel of God. Those who live by the flesh...even if they are born in natural Israel...are rejected as not bearing the right kind of fruit....the fruit of holiness which is accomplished by entering into Christ by faith.

Ok, now this is the answer I was expecting. But if the vineyard is spiritual Israel, doesn't that contradict the sense used in v.15 where it says, "And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him." How could Jesus be cast out of spiritual Israel?

 

[Episkopos]

Ok, now this is the answer I was expecting. But if the vineyard is spiritual Israel, doesn't that contradict the sense used in v.15 where it says, "And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him." How could Jesus be cast out of spiritual Israel?

That's why I said it is BOTH and inward AND outward thing. Both seen AND unseen.

All things spiritual are on 2 levels. Nobody on earth can exist in ONLY the spiritual level...although most people only live on the physical level. People can still kill the outer man. So then we are to offer up our outer man as a living sacrifice to God....even as we live from the inner man by faith.

 

[brakelite]

Now, I agree with much of what she said, but right here what is she interpreting the vineyard to be? Specifically? Is she saying the vineyard is Jerusalem, and it was taken from them?

I think she is saying the vineyard is Israel, and I remember she said elsewhere that the laws of God were the hedge that protected the people, which she said was God's pleasant plant", and the tower in the midst of the vineyard was the temple. I don't know if she made any difference between Israel and Jerusalem.

Ok, now this is the answer I was expecting. But if the vineyard is spiritual Israel, doesn't that contradict the sense used in v.15 where it says, "And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him." How could Jesus be cast out of spiritual Israel?

I think we get into trouble when we use figurative or symbolic language such as 'vineyard', and interpret it to represent another symbol...spiritual Israel. I believe we will remain safe in our understanding if we simply accept symbols to be understood by a literal interpretation.

 

[brakelite]

The vineyard is both something seen and something unseen. It does indeed involve Israel...but what is Israel?

We are to be fruitful...bearing a holy fruit. If the root is holy, so are the branches.

So it comes down to where we are living from...the Spirit or the flesh. Those who are of the Spirit are the Israel of God. Those who live by the flesh...even if they are born in natural Israel...are rejected as not bearing the right kind of fruit....the fruit of holiness which is accomplished by entering into Christ by faith.

God holds out a standard. People who refuse that standard are themselves rejected...or rather have eliminated themselves. They stiffen their necks against the pleas of God.

If we are willing and obedient we too can possess the land. But this land is in a spiritual place. We are to sell all we have in this world to gain a treasure in heaven the access of which is by faith.

Yes. In other words, if Israel was judged for not producing fruit, Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[Hidden In Him]

That's why I said it is BOTH and inward AND outward thing.

All things spiritual are on 2 levels. Nobody on earth can exist in ONLY the spiritual level...although most people only live on the physical level. People can still kill the outer man. So then we are to offer up our outer man as a living sacrifice to God....even as we live from the inner man by faith.

Yes, Episkopos, but you are cheating the parable. If all things spiritual are on two levels, both the physical and spiritual, then you must be saying Jesus was cast out of spiritual Israel.

How did they cast Him out of spiritual Israel?

 

[Hidden In Him]

the tower in the midst of the vineyard was the temple.

This is good.

I think we get into trouble when we use figurative or symbolic language such as 'vineyard', and interpret it to represent another symbol...spiritual Israel. I believe we will remain safe in our understanding if we simply accept symbols to be understood by a literal interpretation.

In general I would agree with that, and certainly here.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, Episkopos, but you are cheating the parable. If all things spiritual are on two levels, both the physical and spiritual, then you must be saying Jesus was cast out of spiritual Israel.

How did they cast Him out of spiritual Israel?

It's God's vineyard remember. People act as if Israel is from men. It isn't. The land is always God's.

But God is spiritual and is looking for true spiritual fruit. Jesus said that God is looking for worshipers in Spirit and truth.

Jesus was cast out of NATURAL Israel by nonspiritual men. People can't see that the outer things are just a show of something much deeper. So God is looking for spiritual people to bear spiritual fruit to God for HIS glory.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Well, because the One doing the traveling is God. Depending on which passage you would be applying here, you could say He went to Babylon or some other place on earth, but the natural conclusion would be that He was returning to Heaven. The same allusion was made when Jesus told the disciples, "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am you may be also."

Okay. You asked about the ‘far county’ ...weapons of destruction come from a far country.

Isaiah 13:4-9
[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. [5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord , and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. [6] Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [7] Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: [8] And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. [9] Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

[icxn]

...More references...won’t post them all. But I’m asking how do we then say “far country” means heaven?

A country is far from a certain point of reference i.e. another country. From God's point of view far country is the place/condition of one living in sin, as in the case of the prodigal son. From those living in sin on the other hand, far country is the state of holiness in which God dwells, i.e. Heaven. There's also the literal sense, the distance between two physical places.

As far as I can see these are the three different meanings of 'far country' in the passages you quoted.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

A country is far from a certain point of reference i.e. another country. From God's point of view far country is the place/condition of one living in sin, as in the case of the prodigal son. From those living in sin on the other hand, far country is the state of holiness in which God dwells, i.e. Heaven. There's also the literal sense, the distance between two physical places.

As far as I can see these are the three different meanings of 'far country' in the passages you quoted.

Thank you for the explanation. It helps.

 

[farouk]

Okay. You asked about the ‘far county’ ...weapons of destruction come from a far country.

Isaiah 13:4-9
[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. [5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord , and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. [6] Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [7] Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: [8] And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. [9] Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

This probably refers to events after the Rapture...