Paul and The Philosophers at Athens

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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This was a city that was full of idol worship, which caused Paul’s spirit to be provoked within him. He immediately began by sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Resurrection (because he preached to them Jesus and the Resurrection, v.18). In response to the inscription, “To an Unknown god”, Paul used this to tell them about the One True God of the Holy Bible, and the real Hope that there is for all sinners, in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verses 26-27, Paul tells these:

“And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us”

Paul tells these that they “should seek the Lord”. That is, ζητέω, to “seek after, desire, investigate, to feel the want of”. Then we have the interesting Greek word, “ψηλαφάω”, used, which means, “feel or grope about to find a thing, like a blind man”. Why all of this, if sinners have been “elected to salvation”, and are meant to DO nothing? This is what the Lord Jesus says in Luke 14:24, “Make every effort (strive) to enter through the narrow door, because I tell you, many will try to enter and won’t be able”. If the Reformed/Calvinistic teaching is Biblical, then these passages in the Bible will not be there!

Paul goes on to tell these,

“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, “because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by braising Him from the dead.” (30-31)

Paul addresses these words to all those who were listening to him, not some select few, as some wrongly teach. God, says Paul, now demands that ALL humans EVERYWHERE must repent of their sins, because ALL will face the Lord for Judgement some day.

We are told in verse 32, that “some mocked” at the preaching of Paul, and others told him they would hear him again. And some men and women “joined him and believed”, the Gospel. In chapter 28 we read of the encounter that Paul had with some Jews, where it says, “And some believed by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.” (24). Again, it is clear from what the Bible says, that a sinner who hears the Gospel Message, might “believe” in what is preached, while others are not interested. They have a choice, not as some falsely teach, that God chooses their salvation for them! He also “repents and believes” on their behalf! These are perversions of the Gospel Message.

As with the people of Nineveh, who were very wicked and caused great harm to the Jews at that time, yet God in His Great Mercy and Compassion and Love, sent the Prophet Jonah to tell them the Great News of their salvation! Likewise, here in Acts 17, God saws these wretched, lost people who were “given to idol” worship, and sent the Apostle Paul with the Gospel of Hope, so that these could also “repent and believe”, and have eternal life. However, there are always some moaners, like in the time or Jonah, and now with the so called “Reformed”, who see that Greatness of God’s Salvation for the entire human race, do, like Jonah did, say to the Lord at least in their hearts:

“But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm. “Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for bit is better or me to die than to live!” (Jonah 4:1-3)

This so much describes the “Reformed/Calvinist”, who always try to find verses that don’t exist in the Bible, for their favorite flower, the TULIP!
 
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Addy

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;) my best friend since Sep 1983 is a 5 point Calvinist!

I can't say that I have ever met a Calvinist in the flesh... LOL... My first introduction to this doctrine was over 20 years ago when I first got a computer and decided to join a Christian chat room because I thought it would be the safest thing to do... BOY oh boy... was I wrong... LOL
This man would frequent the chatroom spewing forth his harsh judgement on those who believed in free will and GRACE. I'm quite sure now that he would be what is deemed a hyper-Calvinist. They are a nasty brood in my opinion. Anyways.. this is where I got my introduction to Christianity and this is where and when I decided to seek out this man called Jesus.

In the last 6 years... I have done my homework in breaking down different doctrines... and have found the Calvinist belief system to be filled with horrific mis-representations about God. With that said... I have softened in my approach somewhat and to my absolute shock and dismay... my favorite preacher to listen to is a Calvinist... Carter Conlon. However... his sermons are not filled with what one would identify as being Calvinistic... they are simply wonderful and sober reminders of God's Sovereignty.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I can't say that I have ever met a Calvinist in the flesh... LOL... My first introduction to this doctrine was over 20 years ago when I first got a computer and decided to join a Christian chat room because I thought it would be the safest thing to do... BOY oh boy... was I wrong... LOL
This man would frequent the chatroom spewing forth his harsh judgement on those who believed in free will and GRACE. I'm quite sure now that he would be what is deemed a hyper-Calvinist. They are a nasty brood in my opinion. Anyways.. this is where I got my introduction to Christianity and this is where and when I decided to seek out this man called Jesus.

In the last 6 years... I have done my homework in breaking down different doctrines... and have found the Calvinist belief system to be filled with horrific mis-representations about God. With that said... I have softened in my approach somewhat and to my absolute shock and dismay... my favorite preacher to listen to is a Calvinist... Carter Conlon. However... his sermons are not filled with what one would identify as being Calvinistic... they are simply wonderful and sober reminders of God's Sovereignty.

Good to hear of your journey. So called "Reformed" theology, which many Calvinists subscribe to, is in its teaching on the salvation of the sinner, not based on honest Biblical teaching. Their corruption of verses like John 3:16, where they try to argue that the Greek "kosmos" here means not the entire human race, but only those for whom Jesus actually died. They force the Bible into their thinking. Interesting that even their "hero", John Calvin, says of this verse, that it refers to "everyone without exception"! You should join the Baptist Board, where I am also a member, most of the members are Reformed/Calvinists, and they are not too kind to me, when I say that God loves the entire human race, including Judas, who Jesus says in Luke, that He went to the cross to die for his sins! Such is the Greatness and Wonder of our Great God, Who really does not desire than any human being is lost!
 

Addy

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You should join the Baptist Board, where I am also a member,
Thanks but I'm good... surviving here is more than I can handle... HAHA.... I think after just under a year here and many breaks... I am beginning to find a niche... I believe I joined my first forum in April of last year... I lasted there less than 2 months... HA... and toddled over to here... I don't seem to last very long before getting absolutely fed up... but each time I return... I am stronger and thicker skinned... HA. My skill seems to be hopping in and out of threads... I tell ya.. I have contacted Admin about being hired as SNACK server... I am awaiting an official answer but I have high hopes that they will approve me... LOL
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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Thanks but I'm good... surviving here is more than I can handle... HAHA.... I think after just under a year here and many breaks... I am beginning to find a niche... I believe I joined my first forum in April of last year... I lasted there less than 2 months... HA... and toddled over to here... I don't seem to last very long before getting absolutely fed up... but each time I return... I am stronger and thicker skinned... HA. My skill seems to be hopping in and out of threads... I tell ya.. I have contacted Admin about being hired as SNACK server... I am awaiting an official answer but I have high hopes that they will approve me... LOL

I like these forums as a place to exchange views on solid Bible study. As we are all imperfect, saved sinners (except the Reformed ;)), none of us have all the answers, and must be open to the Lord teaching us through others, which can be hard at times. It is also a good place to be to evangelize, which should be a main purposes of all Christians. What is a "SNACK server"? do you get to hand out the peanuts??? :D
 

Addy

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I like these forums as a place to exchange views on solid Bible study. As we are all imperfect, saved sinners (except the Reformed ;)), none of us have all the answers, and must be open to the Lord teaching us through others, which can be hard at times. It is also a good place to be to evangelize, which should be a main purposes of all Christians. What is a "SNACK server"? do you get to hand out the peanuts??? :D

You have expressed the right attitude with regards to WHAT forums should be... but I have noticed that all it takes is one over-bearing contributor to spoil the lot.

I admit to NOT being open to learn anything from anyone because I don't trust anyone... LOL... People come in here with all kinds of the strangest beliefs... Awhile back we even had someone state that Mike Pence and Trump were the two witnesses...REALLY???
Arriving here during the elections really spoiled it for me... and has made me to shut down on learning anything here... I don't come here to learn... I come here to fellowship...

Snack server... an imaginary position I have imaginarily applied for to an imaginary ADMIN... therefore in reality... it is my way of saying... I don't fit in ... but am beginning to see that this allows me to float all over the place... LOL... and that does have it's positives...

People are starting to know that I am just that way.

Anyways... I hope you get lots of responses to this thread... I do read some things... just not from those who claim to know it all.. LOL
 

Randy Kluth

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This so much describes the “Reformed/Calvinist”, who always try to find verses that don’t exist in the Bible, for their favorite flower, the TULIP![/QUOTE]

I'm Predestinarian, and at least partly Calvinist, and don't at all think you're properly characterizing *my* Reform Theology! I certainly don't agree with all of Reform Theology, but I do agree with its Predestinarianism. It certainly may be true of some, but I don't believe that Luther and Calvin dismissed free will completely. As Luther said, there is a will but it is in "bondage."

It is Christ's word that sets men free. And God tailors his word towards those who who are predestined to election one way, and an entirely different word towards those who are inclined against His word. In other words, God somehow anticipates how men will use their free will, whether in conjunction with His word or opposed to His word. His word reaches out equally to all men for Salvation, but that message liberates some and hardens others.

At any rate, it is the receiving of God's word that liberates our free will to choose for it. God certainly would have all men to accept His word, but He knows not all want it. How God knows who will want Him and who will not I' not sure--I have ideas. But don't let it be said that Calvinists and Reformers don't want all men to be saved. The Bible plainly says that it is God's will that all men be saved, regardless of what He knows in advance.
 

CadyandZoe

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Why all of this, if sinners have been “elected to salvation”, and are meant to DO nothing?
Your question misrepresents the Calvinist position, assuming the critic's objection. That is, while Calvinists teach predestination and God's sovereignty, they do not teach fatalism. Those who criticize Calvinists charge them with fatalism, but no Calvinist would affirm fatalism.

In order to evaluate the idea of transcendence, we must surely understand that if God has elected to save an individual, then predestination works in every aspect and moment of the elected individual's life. Suppose God plans to save Joe. Not only will God save Joe, God creates Joe hearing the gospel, believing the gospel, walking with Jesus and enduring all of life's trials and challenges to the faith. His entire life is predestined. So then, although a fatalist would say, "everything is predestined so it doesn't matter at all what I do." The Bible says that everything is predestined and it makes all the difference what I do.

In order to evaluate the works of a transcendent creator, we must surely adopt another set of criteria appropriate for that reality. We make a serious category mistake if we attempt to evaluate God's works using criteria appropriate for our plane of reality. We are accustomed to the law of cause and effect; freedom and compulsion; intention and result. But a transcendent creator lives and moves and works on a higher plane, creating everything that is. From that perspective, we evaluate reality in terms of it's narrative purpose because God is creating a story.

And so, for instance, God creates a prophet who preaches his message. Then God creates someone hearing the prophet and believing what is reported. Then God creates that same individual responding to the message in an appropriate way. To evaluate this scenario, we can only but ask, "what does the presence of a prophet contribute to the story? What does the warning contribute to the story? What does the believer contribute to the story?" And above all, is it a good story?

The critics of this line of thinking are quick to ask, "so, if God is going to save someone anyway, why the warnings?" The answer comes back, "it serves the narrative." One will argue that since man has freedom of the will, God holds man accountable and God gives man warnings, then he is NOT directing everything. This assumes that both can't be true at the same time. But the law of non-contradiction says, "at the same time in the same way." But the reality of transcendent creation is nothing like the reality of cause and effect.

Just as the author of a novel is able to create the free-will choices of his or her characters, God creates the free-will choices of those whom he creates. In order to understand the warnings, the prophet's message and the believers' response in the light of God's sovereign will, one must evaluated such things using the criteria of creation, not cause and effect. Why the warnings? They serve the narrative. Why the prophet? He serves the narrative. Why does someone believe? It serves the narrative. Why do some fall away? It serves the narrative.

None of this changes how we evaluate our own experience from with our reality framework. We will need to hear the gospel; we still need to believe it; we still need to persevere and never give up. The Biblical revelation that God is a transcendent creator is meant to be encouraging, letting us know that NOTHING can thwart his promises to us.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Your question misrepresents the Calvinist position, assuming the critic's objection. That is, while Calvinists teach predestination and God's sovereignty, they do not teach fatalism. Those who criticize Calvinists charge them with fatalism, but no Calvinist would affirm fatalism.

In order to evaluate the idea of transcendence, we must surely understand that if God has elected to save an individual, then predestination works in every aspect and moment of the elected individual's life. Suppose God plans to save Joe. Not only will God save Joe, God creates Joe hearing the gospel, believing the gospel, walking with Jesus and enduring all of life's trials and challenges to the faith. His entire life is predestined. So then, although a fatalist would say, "everything is predestined so it doesn't matter at all what I do." The Bible says that everything is predestined and it makes all the difference what I do.

In order to evaluate the works of a transcendent creator, we must surely adopt another set of criteria appropriate for that reality. We make a serious category mistake if we attempt to evaluate God's works using criteria appropriate for our plane of reality. We are accustomed to the law of cause and effect; freedom and compulsion; intention and result. But a transcendent creator lives and moves and works on a higher plane, creating everything that is. From that perspective, we evaluate reality in terms of it's narrative purpose because God is creating a story.

And so, for instance, God creates a prophet who preaches his message. Then God creates someone hearing the prophet and believing what is reported. Then God creates that same individual responding to the message in an appropriate way. To evaluate this scenario, we can only but ask, "what does the presence of a prophet contribute to the story? What does the warning contribute to the story? What does the believer contribute to the story?" And above all, is it a good story?

The critics of this line of thinking are quick to ask, "so, if God is going to save someone anyway, why the warnings?" The answer comes back, "it serves the narrative." One will argue that since man has freedom of the will, God holds man accountable and God gives man warnings, then he is NOT directing everything. This assumes that both can't be true at the same time. But the law of non-contradiction says, "at the same time in the same way." But the reality of transcendent creation is nothing like the reality of cause and effect.

Just as the author of a novel is able to create the free-will choices of his or her characters, God creates the free-will choices of those whom he creates. In order to understand the warnings, the prophet's message and the believers' response in the light of God's sovereign will, one must evaluated such things using the criteria of creation, not cause and effect. Why the warnings? They serve the narrative. Why the prophet? He serves the narrative. Why does someone believe? It serves the narrative. Why do some fall away? It serves the narrative.

None of this changes how we evaluate our own experience from with our reality framework. We will need to hear the gospel; we still need to believe it; we still need to persevere and never give up. The Biblical revelation that God is a transcendent creator is meant to be encouraging, letting us know that NOTHING can thwart his promises to us.

I disagree with your presentation. If, as you suggest that God has "predestined" some to salvation, the the offer of the Gospel through preaching to every human being, is a complete farce! Why would God even allow those who are not "predestined", to hear the Gospel of salvation? God is Almighty, and can indeed direct His saving Message to only those He has chosen to be saved. If He could do this for Paul, by sending Ananias for his salvation; and sent Peter directly to Cornelius, for the salvation of him and those of his household who would believe; and then Paul to a certain Lydia, that she could hear the Gospel and get saved, etc, etc. Then there is NO problem or difficulty in God doing just this for ALL the elect! The nub of the Gospel Message is the salvation of hell-bound sinners, and their life with the Lord Jesus Christ, here and now, and for all eternity. Why would God even allow this Message to be heard by the those who are non elect, as they can never become elect? Reformed theology is based on the wrong understanding of what it really means in verses like John 3:16, "God SO LOVES the entire human race..."
 
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Randy Kluth

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which renders predestination to salvation as impossible.

I see it this way. God predetermined children for himself, giving them the ability to procreate and to participate in producing the children God predestined for Himself.

But in choosing to go it alone, Man mixed up his calling. He now creates children for both sides of the tracks. One side is an environment conducive to responding to God's original calling for children. The other side is conducive to following after the source of freedom from God that gave wayward children birth. They want the very freedom that created them apart from God's will.

They all have free will. But the ones produced by Man's freedom from God produce children that want to be free from God. There is freedom of choice, but the results are predictable. They simply want what is natural to them, and what is natural to them is not what God wanted. God wanted men to choose to work with Him, and not apart from Him.

Man is indeed a mixed creature. Bad or good, all men have some of God in them and some independence from God. Those who choose to repent and return to God will be saved. Those who want full independence from God will get what they choose for, with its consequent results.

But men will be judged by whether they're saved, and by the degree to which they worked together with God. Doing things against God's word will bring loss.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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I see it this way. God predetermined children for himself, giving them the ability to procreate and to participate in producing the children God predestined for Himself.

But in choosing to go it alone, Man mixed up his calling. He now creates children for both sides of the tracks. One side is an environment conducive to responding to God's original calling for children. The other side is conducive to following after the source of freedom from God that gave wayward children birth. They want the very freedom that created them apart from God's will.

They all have free will. But the ones produced by Man's freedom from God produce children that want to be free from God. There is freedom of choice, but the results are predictable. They simply want what is natural to them, and what is natural to them is not what God wanted. God wanted men to choose to work with Him, and not apart from Him.

Man is indeed a mixed creature. Bad or good, all men have some of God in them and some independence from God. Those who choose to repent and return to God will be saved. Those who want full independence from God will get what they choose for, with its consequent results.

But men will be judged by whether they're saved, and by the degree to which they worked together with God. Doing things against God's word will bring loss.

your theology is all mixed up!
 

CadyandZoe

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I disagree with your presentation. If, as you suggest that God has "predestined" some to salvation, the the offer of the Gospel through preaching to every human being, is a complete farce! Why would God even allow those who are not "predestined", to hear the Gospel of salvation? God is Almighty, and can indeed direct His saving Message to only those He has chosen to be saved. If He could do this for Paul, by sending Ananias for his salvation; and sent Peter directly to Cornelius, for the salvation of him and those of his household who would believe; and then Paul to a certain Lydia, that she could hear the Gospel and get saved, etc, etc. Then there is NO problem or difficulty in God doing just this for ALL the elect! The nub of the Gospel Message is the salvation of hell-bound sinners, and their life with the Lord Jesus Christ, here and now, and for all eternity. Why would God even allow this Message to be heard by the those who are non elect, as they can never become elect? Reformed theology is based on the wrong understanding of what it really means in verses like John 3:16, "God SO LOVES the entire human race..."
The talk is concerned with the nature of God and how to make sense of the Bible's revelation that he creates everything that exists including history. In my studies, I have come to realize that in order to evaluate this information, we need a different set of criteria. As I said in my previous post, it is impossible to evaluate the actions of a transcendent creator with the criteria of our plane of reality. All of your questions in this post suffer from a typical category mistake we often make, attempting to understand the nature of a transcendent creator, given rules and principles common to creatures.

It appears to me that you want to argue with Reformed theology, which is actually poor philosophy as you can tell. The objections you raised in this post and your previous post, get at the philosophical weaknesses of Reformed theology. Nonetheless, Reformed theology, though bad philosophy gives proper attention to those Biblical passages that address the nature of God as the creator. Your objections, though valid critique of Reformed philosophy, are empty with regard to such passages. The Bible teaches divine determinism. Just because Reformers are unable to explain it using rock solid philosophical arguments, doesn't mean God is not a divine determinist. We must be cautious to avoid erasing God's revelation of himself while we are in the process of poking holes in Reformed theology.

Throughout history, God has revealed his nature in stages and steps. For instance, consider Exodus 6:3 where the Lord speaks to Moses about Abraham.

Exodus 6:3
and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, [Yahweh], I did not make Myself known to them.


Names are intended to convey a person's most significant characteristic. Abraham knew the Lord as "God almighty", which means "the strongest and most powerful god known to man." The name "Yahweh", however, conveys the idea that God is not only the strongest most potent god among the pantheon; he is a transcendent being. Earlier in Exodus 3:15, God partly explains the meaning of his name in terms of his eternal nature. "This [name] is my memorial to you from generation to generation", he says.

from NET Bible notes:
In that place God called Moses to this task and explained the significance of the name “Yahweh” by the enigmatic expression “I am that I am.” “I am” (אֶהְיֶה, ʾehyeh) is not a name; “Yahweh” is. But the explanation of the name with this sentence indicates that Yahweh is the one who is always there, and that guarantees the future, for everything he does is consistent with his nature. He is eternal, never changing; he remains. Now, in Exodus 6, the meaning of the name “Yahweh” will be more fully unfolded.​

In other words, as each generation of believers comes along, God reveals more about himself and his nature. Abraham knew God by his name "El Shaddai", which means "God almighty", but Moses knew God as "Yawweh" which means "I am that I am" or "He who is" God is not only THE supreme being in our reality, he is THE supreme being in every reality because he is the self-existent creator of everything that exists including history. John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2

In Hebrews 1:2, Paul asserts that God created "the world", but the Greek word is actually "aion", elsewhere translated "age." Paul not only believes that God created the "stuff" of this world, he also created the ages of this world, that is, God orchestrates history.

From this we understand that history not only moves according to a plan, it has a good purpose. But remember, in order to understand and evaluate the transcendent nature of God, we need to use criteria appropriate for that reality. Your objections aren't valid because the rules and logic of God-as-transcendent-being are different than the rules and logic associated with God-as-almighty-God. The strongest god in the pantheon would need to use coercion, force, and armies in order to establish his will. The transcendent God merely speaks things into existence.

What is harder to say, "let there be an individual who believes in my son" or "let there be light"?


For further research, read Jack Crabtree's book "The Most Real Being: a defense of divine determinism."
https://www.amazon.com/Most-Real-Being-Philosophical-Determinism/dp/0974691410