Paul claimed 3 times that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty fox]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians
2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

This does not take away a future physical resurrection at the end of our world.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul never claimed that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



Paul wasn't literally sitting in heaven when he wrote that, nor was he beheaded, nor did he live again after being physically dead. The beheaded dead saints that come back to life and rule with Christ are not the ones who were sitting on the thrones. The two passages do not match at all aside from the mention of "sitting".


Revelation 20:4 is speaking of a physical resurrection of saved Christians. Ephesians 2:4-6 is speaking of formerly unsaved (spiritually dead) people accepting Christ and their souls being spiritually quickened resulting in them being saved by grace. Revelation 20:4 is what will happen to some of these Ephesians 2:4-6 saved people. It will be how they physically die. This will happen in the Great Tribulation which has not yet even started.

 

[Marty fox]

Paul never claimed that Revelation 20:4 was a current reality.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:



Paul wasn't literally sitting in heaven when he wrote that, nor was he beheaded, nor did he live again after being physically dead. The beheaded dead saints that come back to life and rule with Christ are not the ones who were sitting on the thrones. The two passages do not match at all aside from the mention of "sitting".


Revelation 20:4 is speaking of a physical resurrection of saved Christians. Ephesians 2:4-6 is speaking of formerly unsaved (spiritually dead) people accepting Christ and their souls being spiritually quickened resulting in them being saved by grace. Revelation 20:4 is what will happen to some of these Ephesians 2:4-6 saved people. It will be how they physically die. This will happen in the Great Tribulation which has not yet even started.

Did you even read the OP? The point is that it wasn't literal because Paul teaches us that its spiritual.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did you even read the OP? The point is that it wasn't literal because Paul teaches us that its spiritual.

He never reads anything carefully. He just repeats his same Premil rhetoric over and over again. You made great points in your OP and he addressed NONE of them.

Scripture is clear as to what event results in us reigning with Christ and that is when we become spiritually saved/born again. That is shown clearly in passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and the others you referenced in your OP. And the souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die and they continue to reign with Him there.

I know in this thread you are focusing on Revelation 20:4, but I like to point out the obvious similarities between Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 20:6. In Revelation 1:5-6 it points out how Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead" which alludes to the fact that He was the first to bodily rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. And it points out how He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth, which shows that He reigns now. And it points out how He "HAS MADE us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". All these things are alluded to in Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 1:5-6 shows how those things are a current reality.

 

[ewq1938]

Did you even read the OP?

Yes, did you? None of the accounts match what is found in Rev 20. Paul never talks about people having their heads cut off then those same people having a resurrection. Paul is talking about something completely different. The beheaded saints die physically and literally in the GT for refusing the mark etc.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, did you? None of the accounts match what is found in Rev 20. Paul never talks about people having their heads cut off then those same people having a resurrection. Paul is talking about something completely different. The beheaded saints die physically and literally in the GT for refusing the mark etc.

Revelation 20 doesn't say anything about people who weren't beheaded having part in the first resurrection, but you still believe that they will. So, why are you saying two passages don't match just because they don't contain all the same details when you match up two passages that don't contain all the same details yourself?

 

[Marty fox]

He never reads anything carefully. He just repeats his same Premil rhetoric over and over again. You made great points in your OP and he addressed NONE of them.

Scripture is clear as to what event results in us reigning with Christ and that is when we become spiritually saved/born again. That is shown clearly in passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and the others you referenced in your OP. And the souls of the dead in Christ go to heaven when they die and they continue to reign with Him there.

I know in this thread you are focusing on Revelation 20:4, but I like to point out the obvious similarities between Revelation 1:5-6 and Revelation 20:6. In Revelation 1:5-6 it points out how Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead" which alludes to the fact that He was the first to bodily rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. And it points out how He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth, which shows that He reigns now. And it points out how He "HAS MADE us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father". All these things are alluded to in Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 1:5-6 shows how those things are a current reality.

Yes thanks for the added input I agree.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, did you? None of the accounts match what is found in Rev 20. Paul never talks about people having their heads cut off then those same people having a resurrection. Paul is talking about something completely different. The beheaded saints die physically and literally in the GT for refusing the mark etc.

How can you say none of them match what is found in revelation 20? I even put in bold the very same three events.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now ewq1938 has started his own thread to counter this one? Why can't he just discuss this topic here in this thread instead of creating his own? How strange.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can you say none of them match what is found in revelation 20? I even put in bold the very same three events.

They most certainly match in terms of talking about reigning with Christ. Scripture like Ephesians 2:4-6 and the others you referenced tell us how someone starts reigning with Christ. Why would someone not want to take that into account when interpreting Revelation 20:4? The concept of interpreting scripture with scripture is lost on some people.

 

[Marty fox]

Now ewq1938 has started his own thread to counter this one? Why can't he just discuss this topic here in this thread instead of creating his own? How strange.

Yes and he claimed two things about amils which I never said and even printed the opposite in my OP.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes and he claimed two things about amils which I never said and even printed the opposite in my OP.

He does that. Get used to it.

 

[Brakelite]

This isn't an amil or a premil issue. It's an occult issue, or spiritualist issue derived from paganism and embraced by Christianity that believes that the human person is naturally immortal and lives after death in the form of a disembodied soul or spirit. Repent and turn away from such unbiblical doctrine then ask for the holy Spirit's help in figuring out the rest. All will then fall into place. But first get the basics right.

 

[Marty fox]

This isn't an amil or a premil issue. It's an occult issue, or spiritualist issue derived from paganism and embraced by Christianity that believes that the human person is naturally immortal and lives after death in the form of a disembodied soul or spirit. Repent and turn away from such unbiblical doctrine then ask for the holy Spirit's help in figuring out the rest. All will then fall into place. But first get the basics right.

So what do you think happens after death?

 

[jeffweeder]

This isn't an amil or a premil issue.

Adding clarity to the verse as Marty has done, does nothing for premill, as this is their go to verse.
Does everything for Amill in supporting the rest of the NT narrative.

 

[jeffweeder]

So what do you think happens after death?

What do you make of this?

9 When He (the Lamb) broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained [out of loyalty to Christ]. 10 They cried in a loud voice, saying, “O Lord, holy and true, how long now before You will sit in judgment and avenge our blood on those [unregenerate ones] who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe; and they were told to rest and wait quietly for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Revelation 4:1 Paul says==After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”

 

[Marty fox]

What do you make of this?

9 When He (the Lamb) broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained [out of loyalty to Christ]. 10 They cried in a loud voice, saying, “O Lord, holy and true, how long now before You will sit in judgment and avenge our blood on those [unregenerate ones] who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe; and they were told to rest and wait quietly for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed.

I think this was for the other guy Jeff

 

[jeffweeder]

I think this was for the other guy Jeff

Yes. Not confident that Brakelite is going to come back to the thread, so I just asked the qu to all really.
Your OP is the answer to how they received their white robes.

 

[Marty fox]

Revelation 4:1 Paul says==After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”

That was actually John not Paul but we’re you agreeing with the OP?