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Featured Peter's Hope

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Webers_Home, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    -
    1Pet 3:15 . . Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks
    you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

    That passage should probably always accompany this next one.

    Rom 8:23-25 . .We ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, groan
    inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons: the redemption of our
    bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at
    all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not
    yet have, we wait for it patiently.

    The New Testament Greek word for "hope" in those passages is elpis (el
    pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with
    confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, an
    confidence.

    Webster's definition of hope as a verb is very similar: 1) to desire with
    expectation of obtainment, and 2) to expect with confidence and trust. Note
    the elements of expectation, and confidence, and trust.

    Webster's definition of hope as a noun is: 1) a desire accompanied by
    expectation of, or belief in, fulfillment, and 2) expectation of fulfillment or
    success. Note the elements of expectation, and belief.

    In other words: elpis hope is a know-so hope rather than a cross your
    fingers hope.

    The plan of salvation includes not only rescue from the second death
    depicted at Rev 20:11-15, but also rescue from fear of the unknown. In
    other words: people lacking elpis hope cannot reasonably expect to obtain a
    better body in the afterlife— one that's superior in all respects to the body
    they have now. Beneficiaries of elpis hope know for certain that they have a
    better body in the bag.

    That's what it means to be "saved by hope". In other words: spared fear of
    the unknown. (cf. 1Cor 15:51-54)

    Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope.

    When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind
    dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for rejoicing; no; but they
    do have plenty of cause to fear the unknown.

    Does an adherent of Catholicism have elpis hope? I don't think so; and in
    point of fact, Church dogma forbids having it.

    Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16: If anyone says that he
    will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift
    of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a
    special revelation, let him be anathema. (cf. CCC 1020)

    Webster's defines "anathema" as: a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by
    ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication.

    Since Rome doesn't permit elpis hope, then it's de facto that Rome's
    constituents can't possibly comply with Peter's command to give a reason for
    having it.

    Catholicism's hope is not Peter's elpis hope; but rather, a somewhat nervous
    state of anxiety and wishful thinking that hovers within a hair's breadth of
    bitter disappointment.

    The Council aside; it only stands to reason, that any candidate for a better
    body who is in the process of working out their own salvation with fear and
    trembling as per Rome's interpretation of Phlp 2:12, cannot possibly have
    elpis hope.

    Think about it. If a candidate for salvation is still in the process of working
    out their own salvation with fear and trembling, then it's obvious they do not
    believe themselves to have a better body locked in yet; ergo: no
    conscientious Catholic can honestly look forward to a better body with a
    100% doubt-free expectation of obtaining it; viz: they do not yet have the
    kind of hope about which Peter wrote in 1Pet 3:15, nor the kind of hope
    about which Paul wrote in Rom 8:23-25; and if they claim otherwise, they're
    not only putting up a front, but they also merit the penalty of Council of
    Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16.

    The point is; no conscientious Catholic dare attest that they have a new,
    superhuman, immortal body in the bag because Rome's version of
    Christianity offers no guarantees; not even for its Popes nor even for its
    outstanding nuns like Mother Teresa.

    The best that Rome can offer its followers is a shot at a better body. But the
    fact is; Rome's followers have nothing certain to look forward to. That's a
    very bad way to face death.

    The hope that Catholicism offers is a kind of wishful thinking that can be
    labeled as "hope against hope" which Webster's defines as: to hope without
    any basis for expecting fulfillment. viz: a chance; which is sort of like the
    cross-your-fingers experienced by Las Vegas gamblers. They desire to win,
    and there's a chance they might win; but there's no guarantee they will win.

    The New Testament's gospel is good news of great joy (Luke 2:10).
    Catholicism's gospel is neither good nor joyful; no, it's borderline despair, as
    anybody with even a cursory knowledge of Catholicism can attest. Many a
    prospective convert to Christianity has given up on it simply because they
    were introduced to Christianity via Catholicism; which is a discouraging
    version of Christianity that makes Heaven virtually impossible to obtain; and
    leaves people in doubt about the future, and anxious about their personal
    safety.

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
     
  2. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    I see you are still bashing Catholics with falsehoods, misrepresentations, out-of-context snippets, and bald faced lies. Is it the basis of your entire belief system? You flood several forums with the same anti-Catholic crap. You must be a very sad man.
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

    in part from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
    1812
    The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man's faculties for participation in the divine nature:76 for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.

    1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

    1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But "faith apart from works is dead":81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

    1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ's promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."84 "The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."85

    1818 The virtue of hope responds to the aspiration to happiness which God has placed in the heart of every man; it takes up the hopes that inspire men's activities and purifies them so as to order them to the Kingdom of heaven; it keeps man from discouragement; it sustains him during times of abandonment; it opens up his heart in expectation of eternal beatitude. Buoyed up by hope, he is preserved from selfishness and led to the happiness that flows from charity.

    1819 Christian hope takes up and fulfills the hope of the chosen people which has its origin and model in the hope of Abraham, who was blessed abundantly by the promises of God fulfilled in Isaac, and who was purified by the test of the sacrifice.86 "Hoping against hope, he believed, and thus became the father of many nations."87

    1820 Christian hope unfolds from the beginning of Jesus' preaching in the proclamation of the beatitudes. The beatitudes raise our hope toward heaven as the new Promised Land; they trace the path that leads through the trials that await the disciples of Jesus. But through the merits of Jesus Christ and of his Passion, God keeps us in the "hope that does not disappoint."88 Hope is the "sure and steadfast anchor of the soul . . . that enters . . . where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf."89 Hope is also a weapon that protects us in the struggle of salvation: "Let us . . . put on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation."90 It affords us joy even under trial: "Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation."91 Hope is expressed and nourished in prayer, especially in the Our Father, the summary of everything that hope leads us to desire.

    1821 We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."94 She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:
    Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end.95

    footnotes
    76 Cf. 2 Pet 1:4.
    77 Cf. 1 Cor 13:13.
    84 Heb 10:23.
    85 Titus 3:6-7.
    86 Cf. Gen 17:4-8; 22:1-18.
    87 Rom 4:18.
    88 Rom 5:5.
    89 Heb 6:19-20.
    90 1 Thess 5:8.
    91 Rom 12:12.
    92 Cf. Rom 8:28-30; Mt 7:21.
    93 Mt 10:22; cf. Council of Trent: DS 1541.
    94 1 Tim 2:4.
    95 St. Teresa of Avila, Excl. 15:3.
     
  3. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Using catholic doctrines to justify catholism, i doubt the catholic doctrines would ever speak against itself that would be stupidity.
     
  4. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    No, it's you who are showing stupidity.

    Kepha is using Catholic sources to show what true Catholic teaching is rather than Webers_Home's false version.

    Is that too difficult for you to grasp?
     
  5. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    You being a learned man should know the truth for you make teh claim that you do, Like that little bit about Peter and teh rock. Has nothing to do with anything. Revelation so few desire it, rather they keep their religion than seek that what is from God,
     
  6. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Peter being the Rock is incomprehensible to you because you seem unable to follow a simple explanation of scripture.
    You prefer just to rant to no purpose.
     
  7. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Jesus never built His church upon Peter because He said that none of them should be above another

    Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
    Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

    And again you being so learned would know that whole discussion was about Jesus showing Peter revelation and that it is what He is building His church upon, but to receive revelation one must know His voice and have teh Holy spirit, there is a whole book in the bible based upon revelation from Jesus Christ. I hope you do realise the consequence of preaching deceipt, again you being learned would know.

    Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
    Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
    Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    You will answer for it one day.
     
  8. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Yes he did

    You need to look in a mirror when you say that.
     
  9. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    I certainly do know teh consequences

    Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
    Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

    So according to your religion, Jesus is a liar and has double standards, are you going to go tell Him that.
     
  10. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Mt 20:26 "But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves."
    Jesus is saying there will be leaders but they are there to serve. So this statement you made is untrue:
    And just after this Jesus said to those same apostles:
    "I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Lk 22:29-31)

    That sounds like Jesus is appointed them to be above others. Are you going to tell Jesus he has double standards?
     
  11. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Why all men are equal in the eyes of God, a servant serves, he is not served, a servant is not above His master, neither is He above that he serves. you pope is no servant he is worshiped idolised and glorifed He is no servant by any descripton, and again Jesus is not building His "ecclesia" on Peter Hi is building it on revelation, and you should know taht from all your learning.
     
  12. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    lots of opinions there mjrhealth but I don't see you providing any evidence for backing up those opinions.
     
  13. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    If there are no church leaders what was the point of Jesus appointing Apostles?
     
  14. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

    The Pope is respected for the office he holds, he is not "idolised and glorifed" any more than the president of any given country. Since you are your own pope, I don't see why you should be complaining. You idolize and glorify an anti-church mentality that isn't healthy.
     
  15. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    If following Jesus is not healthy than you have a lot of thinking to do,
     
  16. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    But you aren't following Jesus. You do not want to belong to "the church, which is his body".
    You do not want the "fullness of him who fills all in all".
    You reject Christ because you reject his Body.
     
  17. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    His yes yours no. what has your church got to do with Him, it called "catholic:' name title religion and doctrines. nothing to do with Jesus. One rejects Christ whe none walks away from His authority as you and all have done by giving it to the pope. Not His covereing its the churches, your churches.

    Isa_30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

    men rebeilolin against God never change.
     
  18. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    I haven't given any authority to the Pope. I recognize the authority that Jesus gave him as the successor of Peter. Unlike you who doesn't even recognize Jesus in his Body, the Church.

    I belong to the Church that Jesus set up, unlike you who have set up your own church.
    I belong to the "fullness of him who fills all in all" unlike you who only have a desiccated, shrivelled version of Christianity.
     
  19. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    HE never gave anyone any authorty, especially not your pope, teh history of your church speaks for itself, teh evidence you seek is in teh libraries of teh world , but you arnt inetersted in teh truth becuase it would make your religion obsolete, and you need your religion.

    As for Jesus well all men who go to Him are teh body of His church, its not a religion nor a denomination, Of course you could go have that discussion with teh JWs, teh mormans, the SDAs who all make teh same claim as you and like you its all lies.
     
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Of course Jesus gave people authority. Don't you read your Bible?
    He summoned the Twelve and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases (Lk 9:1)

    You would do well to heed Paul's words:
    Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.(Rom 13:1-2)
     
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