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Featured Physician Assisted Suicide

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality Forum' started by Mayflower, Mar 16, 2019.

  1. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    This bill was approved in Maryland. In the United States!!!! This is APALLING. The Bible says, "Thou shalt not Kill." Sickening.
     
  2. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    My mom asked the doctor to "put her down" and lived ten more years after that! If the doctor was allowed that, she would have missed many more years.
     
  3. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Did you stay in close enough communication with her to know her feelings about living for those additional years?
     
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  4. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    Ten years? I would hope so. She had her moments, but for the most part, she was grateful. She got to see her two granddaughters be born and me getting married. Even though she couldnt come to the wedding, she was happy.

    But the issue isn't about feelings. It is about what constitutes as murder. Physician Assisted Suicide is killing someone no matter your views. And the 6th commandment is not to kill.
     
  5. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    It takes very little time around incapacitated people in, for instance, a Hospice nursing home, to see our self-serving vanity of thinking we are doing someone a favor by forcing them to live extended years of a life of misery.
     
  6. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    If youbelie
    And it is doing someone a favor by sinning against God by murdering someone? My mom lived in an assisted living nursing home for many years. She had congestive heart failure and dementia.

    Who are we to decide when we get to die or someone else is in pain enough to die. Life is just a short time. We suffer only a little while in this life. Not rescuscitating is one thing. To shoot poison into a depressed person because they are sick...that is murder. For a Christian, continuing to live is a crown of life. For a non Christian, it is a death sentence.
     
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  7. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    I forgot that you are still so young......
     
  8. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    My mom was 69 when she passed away. She would have been 59 if the doctor fulfilled her wishes. I was 19 at the time. Still living at home. She had to go in a nursing home and it was HARD. We moved to Austin, because my aunt merry knew more about nursing homes and which were best. I lived up there 2 years with her before I just spiraled and needed to get help. But you can't tell me my mom was not happy to have that extended life. She got so much closer to God and repented for a lot of things she could not if she would have been murdered.
     
  9. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    As I said, some years may open your eyes. You are speaking of one single incident, and have no awareness of millions of other situations.

    BTW, would it have been "murder" if you had let your mother use the car when she wanted to die, and she used the car to affect that outcome? Were you going to refuse her the ability to drive simply because you knew her frame of mind? If so, then you would have had to also restrict her from the kitchen where there are knives and all sorts of poisons in the cabinet. Or what about not letting her bathe because she could have pulled an electrical appliance in the water with her?

    The physician who provides pills if a person chooses to take them... are they a murderer? Then you would also have to indict the pharmacy company who made the pills, and the hospital that purchased them.

    You can get as emotional as you feel you need to, but it is still ultimately the patient's choice to die.
     
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  10. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    If someone kills themselves, it is their choice. There shouldn't be made an easy way out. Life is not easy. Assisting someone to kill themself in their last years of life after they have lived through very hard times in life is a disgrace. But yes I am very emotional about this and I will NEVER agree.

    But I post this chapter in Psalms, because it brings some peace that we will be with God some day...

    Psalm 90

    Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew. In the morning it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening it fades and withers away. For we have been consumed by Your anger And by Your wrath we have been dismayed. You have placed our iniquities before You, Our secret sins in the light of Your presence. For all our days have declined in Your fury; We have finished our years like a sigh. As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away. Who understands the power of Your anger And Your fury, according to the fear that is due You? So teach us to number our days, That we may present to You a heart of wisdom. Do return, O Lord ; how long will it be? And be sorry for Your servants. O satisfy us in the morning with Your lovingkindness, That we may sing for joy and be glad all our days. Make us glad according to the days You have afflicted us, And the years we have seen evil. Let Your work appear to Your servants And Your majesty to their children. Let the favor of the Lord our God be upon us; And confirm for us the work of our hands; Yes, confirm the work of our hands.
    Psalms 90:1‭-‬17 NASB
    Psalms 90:1-17 Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | Download The Bible App Now
     
  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Suicide does not require a physician.

    I do not want to see the government sanctioning such things.

    I already see the Democrats moving toward eugenics.
     
  12. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Nothing is every just black and white.

    What about the brave wounded soldiers who said- " Give me a gun and leave me here ( suicide )...I'll hold them off as long as I can."
    Did he commit suicide , or did they commit murder???

    What about in the war , when a Sergeant had who choose to shoot his own wounded privates, because they would have been tortured if the enemy had captured him..

    I know an old friend who actually died at 82 and was happy. But "caring friends" decided that she should be brought back...so she was..
    She ended up living for 8 more miserable years..ended up alone in an old folks home...
    She was very upset that they hadn't allowed her to be with the Lord.

    That fact is Mayflower...half the old people are ALREADY being kept alive by medication and intervention!!
    So, they have already circumvented "God's time" for them.
    I am not against helping someone who is dying anyway..."out of the door" painlessly. Especially if they want to go quickly.

    "Black and white" thinking is not always the answer.
    You quoted the OT "Thou shalt not kill"
    The NT says love your neighbour as thyself.

    I do not do well with pain...what are we trying to prove in making people die slowly in pain "by inches " over many weeks , even months!!
     
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  13. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I do see issues for suicide can be justified. I also see issues where those that would are stopped and they recover.

    But there's no issue to me that it is the place government does not belong in doctors need to stay out of.
     
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  14. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    Well to me, this is completely wrong. Sometimes it is just a matter of conviction whether the rights and wrongs of something. This will never be okay to me. It is one thing to "die for your friends." But when did the Bible ever talk about it is okay to choose to die for yourself. Some on here don't believe in a Rapture because they don't believe God would take His children out of a trial. How much more to live the entire blink of an eye we call life? God knows when we die. And yea there are machines that keep people alive I don't agree with to a certain point and medicines, etc. I don't believe people should be made to take medicine when they are older if they decide not to. But to take a pill or have shot to be "put to sleep", when is the line drawn in playing God. We are to take up our cross and follow Jesus. And an extra 8 years for a non believer could mean eternal life for them.
     
  15. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Probably at your age I felt the same. Just wait until it is your turn my friend.
    It sound all very 'holy and righteous' now, I am sure.
    But then again, no doubt you have not seen very many people die yet.

    We each have to hold on to the convictions we have.


    God bless...H
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  16. Soverign Grace

    Soverign Grace Well-Known Member

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    I think differently than some Christians about this issue. I watched my mother die a HORRIBLE death from cancer. We were left with a large bottle of morphine, which I later learned doctors sometimes leave with families when a loved ones death is imminent, to help usher them into the next world. I wish I had been smarter. My mother SUFFERED.

    Then I watched my mother-in-law suffer the same way. I demanded that she be medicated and the ditzy nurse smiled and said it was on order; as my mother in law lay there gasping for every breath. My friend with cancer called me crying that she didn't have enough money to buy her cancer prescription. Within a few weeks she passed away. I knew she took her own life as we had talked of it many times. She did not want to hang on in a nursing home.

    When I visited my MIL in the nursing home I had to pull my sweater over my nose; the stench of urine and decaying bodies was so bad. I told my husband he'd better help me die before he put me in a place like that. I told him I'd crawl out of there. He said the place is like a prison; when someone leaves their bed a buzzer goes off.

    All we saw were old old people, tongues hanging out, half slid-down in wheelchairs, not alive but not dead. That is no life. And I do not believe God wants a person's body to be kept alive with their mind gone. In case no one has looked into it, rape happens in those places. One of those high profile cases where a woman was brain dead and a hospital fought to keep her alive (for $$$ nothing else) the family saw the woman's stomach swell; she had been raped by an orderly.

    There is no one who could tell me that God wants a person to be kept alive under those conditions. My MIL piteously asked to be taken home but she became incontinent and no one was in a position to care for her.

    Euthanasia can be a slippery slope but so can anything else.

    One of my family member's has to care for dying patients and it takes a horrible toll. There are some awful deaths. It's so unnecessary when we have the means for people to slip peacefully into the next world.

    I believe God is a humane being. Money is one of the biggest motivators of those who push to keep people alive (or rather their bodies). A nursing home tried to entrap my cousin. She had no one and they refused to allow her to leave. It really opened my eyes as to how evil some people are. My cousin called me hysterical. I had to threaten the director with legal action, then they let her out. She told me they wanted her condo. It's a sick system driven by $$.

    Please re-think your stance before consigning another human being to living a life they don't want to live. We just had to let our beloved wire-haired terrier go. That little pup defended me with her life and attacked a huge dog 10 times her size. I owed it to her to let her go before she suffered. As much as I wanted her to stay with me I had to make the decision what was best for HER. How in the Name of GOD can we do any less for humans?

    Friends of ours just shared that their brother was struck on the side of the road by a drunk driver and lost his leg. He had to wear a waste bag, which was bad enough. The doctor told him they had to take the other leg. He said that he would need round-the-clock care, and would have to sell his house to pay for it. He didn't want to leave his wife destitute. He kissed his wife of many years, told her he loved her and went into his bedroom, wrapped himself in sheets and shot himself. What a terrible, violent death. Why is it so hard for us as a nation to face the fact that sometimes the thought of living is too bad and people will find a way to leave? Why don't we allow them to leave peacefully and humanely? Why force their loved ones to live with seeing them die a tragic death by gunshot?

    These aren't anti-Christian views. God is a God of compassion and I don't believe He wants people to die a violent death. Just like how we let our terrier go with dignity, surrounded by love, and slip peacefully to heaven where she'll wait for us, we should do no less for our fellow humans. In this regard, animals are treated better than humans. I don't think God wants or requires that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. But Christians should understand that this was all prophesied a long time ago by Paul, so we should expect the world to get worse and worse -- BEFORE IT GETS BETTER WITH CHRIST.
     
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  18. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Agree.
    We are allowed to be kinder to our animals than we are to our parents.

    If a person has enough brain cells left to choose...in most places people are allowed to pinch there lips closed and refuse food and water.

    In the Home where my mother was there were two sisters. One died..the other sister then refused food and water...by law here, the care workers are not allowed to force feed anyone.
    Yes, there are many different scenarios...
    Even I myself have obviously "taken myself" out of the hands of God as it were. If I "just trusted God" then I would not be taking blood pressure pills and heart pills etc...
    So , for me the people who say- " It must be all up to God" ..yet they take themselves or their kids to the doctor or hospital, are talking out of both side of their mouth at the same time!! A conviction should be a conviction...

    My own faith is not as strong as it ought to be..or used to be.
    And I am a real wimp when it comes to pain!!

    Nice that we are "on the same page" for once eh? :)
     
  19. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    As you know Helen, I have my friend who has dementia living here now and if I hear it once a day I hear it a hundred times. She wants God to take her home, period. She truly believes she has nothing to live for and, at this point I believe she doesn't. She cries daily, knows her mind has been damaged and cannot accept it. I hate to admit this but, it is in my head so I might as well say it...maybe God did NOT want me to take her out of what she was in...how can we know? No, I do not believe in assisted suicide but, I see nothing wrong if someone wants to just stop taking tons of "legal" chemicals just to prolong their suffering.
     
  20. Soverign Grace

    Soverign Grace Well-Known Member

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    The fact that your mother was in a nursing home and likely prevented from taking her life still doesn't account for the multitudes of other individuals who have made the choice to end their lives and who will make that choice no matter how much we insist that it's against God. Should we force these individuals to hang, shoot, or inhale carbon monoxide because of our unwavering beliefs that it's against God's laws? Whether you like it or not, people in a lot of pain are going to find a way to end their life. Why should we force the suffering to end their lives in a violent and painful way?

    One of my family members worked for the medical examiner's office and told me of a 17 year old boy who drove his car into the side of a building and killed himself. Of course it is a very very tough call to offer the means to a 17 year old to assist his demise, but suppose we did? We could insist on lengthy counseling first if it's a young person and maybe that 17 year old could have received the help he needed before ending his life. A young man who we knew from grade school set himself on fire - a terrible terrible, unthinkably painful death. People are going to find a way to end their lives no matter how much we insist is wrong and against our faith it is.

    But then, what about the 72 year old cancer patient who is a widower and the only future he has to look forward to is a worsening of his condition, and facing it alone? Before that man buys a gun and dies a violent death, wouldn't it be more Christ-like to offer him the medication to pass away peacefully, humanely, and with dignity? It really worries me when Christian leaders such as Dobson stand up there and presume to speak for God and all Christianity. No one can speak for God, but we do know God's character. God wasn't a legalist - when you look at the tender mercies of Christ - how he tenderly healed the sick - I could NEVER imagine Christ standing there looking down his aristocratic and legalistic nose at a person in pain and telling them they HAVE to remain in their painful body and just bear up. We as a nation treat our animals better than we do our humans! We put our pets down when they're suffering yet we force our fellow humans to stay in a physical body wracked with pain. Post-surgery I was woefully under-treated for pain due to the insane new CDC regulations because they're allegedly protecting us from becoming addicted to drugs - but yet they're driving people to suicide. My body had been cut open with surgical knives and I rolled around in SHEER AGONY. Many people may never have felt that level of untreated pain, but I learned just how severe pain can be and still be alive.

    I just read where a man suffering from stage 4 cancer had police raid his hospital room and they confiscated his CBD oil. Really? Is that what we've come to as a country?

    These are things we'd all better think about. You would not want to be a stage 4 cancer patient and have some government agent confiscate your means of relief, or under treat your pain "for your own good."

    Of course we ALL know the government knows best right?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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