Hi all. I am just interested in CB's stats on this.
I believe in OSAS. But only from God's perspective. He does not make mistakes. We do.
I believe in OSAS. But only from God's perspective. He does not make mistakes. We do.
Poll on OSAS
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FHII
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OzSpen
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I found the second option, 'We can lose our salvation (Arminianism' to be a straw man fallacy.
Jacob Arminius believed in 'Perseverance of the Saints' (in Works of Arminius). Therefore, I voted for 'None of the above' as I'm convinced that perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine and not OSAS.
Oz
Jacob Arminius believed in 'Perseverance of the Saints' (in Works of Arminius). Therefore, I voted for 'None of the above' as I'm convinced that perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine and not OSAS.
Oz
Salvation is conditional on our abiding in Christ...the vine...and bearing fruit which bears testimony to that enduring relationship.
Jun2u
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I disagree! Adam and Eve’s situation was conditional in that as long as they obeyed God they could live.brakelite said:
Our situation is different in that we are GIVEN eternal life which is free, and NEVER conditional.
What you’ve proposed is liken unto a check which requires two signatures, Jesus did the work and now it is up to us to validate the check by signing it to be in effect. I don’t believe it describes the salvation of the Bible. The Bible states that Jesus alone did ALL the work to save man and man had no part in it.
Think of it, was anyone of the human race present when the Godhead planned salvation before the foundation of the world?
To God Be The Glory
Yeah, I'm with Jun2.brakelite said:
Rom 11:22 NIV - This passage is a metaphor. If we don’t continue in His goodness, it’s a sign that we never really took nourishment from the olive root. Remember, the natural branches (Jews) were only cut off because they never believed that Jesus was the Messiah, not because they believed at one time and then stopped. It’s the same with the wild ones (Gentiles). If we are not forever saved, we were never saved.
In fact, Rom 11:16-24 NIV in its entirety is being used as a metaphor for God's relationship with non believing Jews and believing Gentiles.. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rom+11:11-24+NIV+metaphor
Psalm 107:1-2 NIV Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his love endures forever. 2Let the redeemed of the Lord tell their story—those he redeemed from the hand of the foe,
Jun2u
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Good show, ATP. You seem to bring out the scriptures even I did not think of. Keep it up that you may be a light of the world.
You all completely ignore the entire meaning of language in order to further your opinion. If one is attached to the vine, he is attached for one reason only. He was grafted into the vine by God Himself, based on His acceptance of whatever confession of faith was made by the "branch" to begin with. Yet Jesus warned that the branch that does not bear fruit would be cut off and destroyed. That is simple language.
1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
The old objection that "he wasn't a true Christian to begin with" cannot be offered here. The branch is grafted in by the Father, the Husbandman. These are not unbelievers. The promise of eternal life is secure yes, for those who abide...for those who remain as a part of the true vine. The promise for those who do abide is that they will bear fruit...and thus will be rewarded. But if one, being a branch, does not bear fruit, for whatever reason, the promise is that they will be cut off, taken away, and burnt. Clear, unambiguous, simple, and conditional salvation on bearing fruit.
1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
The old objection that "he wasn't a true Christian to begin with" cannot be offered here. The branch is grafted in by the Father, the Husbandman. These are not unbelievers. The promise of eternal life is secure yes, for those who abide...for those who remain as a part of the true vine. The promise for those who do abide is that they will bear fruit...and thus will be rewarded. But if one, being a branch, does not bear fruit, for whatever reason, the promise is that they will be cut off, taken away, and burnt. Clear, unambiguous, simple, and conditional salvation on bearing fruit.
Rom 11:16-24 is being used as a metaphor. That's like using Luke 16:19-31 to prove soul sleep is false, or John 15 allegory.brakelite said:
Good post Oz. Perseverance of the saints is most definitely biblical. Is the term OSAS not synonymous though, or does it simply bug you? Ha - ATPOzSpen said:
There are too many scriptures that warn us against losing our salvation.
Either the whole Bible is true, or none of it is true.
Either the whole Bible is true, or none of it is true.
What if you see that as verses warning us to ensure we are in Christ? I agree with you. Paul was crystal clear on ensuring we watch and judge ourselves properly.The Barrd said:
Hi Oz. I have googled and I just can't figure this out. Maybe I am bad at Googling or not highly intelligent <_<. This thread is not meant for intense discussion . But you really have me puzzled with this.OzSpen said:
Are you saying that we persevere to be saved?
How do you explain 2 Cor 5:17 if so?
No, King J, these are verses that very clearly warn us that we can fall from grace, and lose our salvation.KingJ said:
Here are some of the more obvious ones:
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
OzSpen
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King J,KingJ said:
From the link that I gave to what Jacob Arminius wrote on 'The Perseverance of the Saints', we can understand that Arminius says that those who have been grafted into Christ by faith, have the continuing ministry of the grace of the Holy Spirit, are preserved by Christ from falling away. However, he considered it was worthy of Scriptural investigation to consider if it is possible for those who neglect their existence in Christ, pursue evil, reject sound doctrine, can thus cause Divine grace to be useless. He affirmed that he never taught that a true believer will finally fall away from the faith to damnation but there are passages that seem to indicate that aspect. However, there are verses which affirm unconditional perseverance.
As to my understanding, I consider that those who are grafted into Christ through faith in Christ alone for salvation and persevere to the end of life as believers, are saved. Matt 24:10 (ESV) speaks about 'many will fall away'; 'many false prophets will arise' (Matt 24:11 ESV); lawlessness will increase and 'the love of many will grow cold' (Matt 24:12 ESV), BUT ... BUT ... 'But the one who endures to the end will be saved' (Matt 24:13 ESV, emphasis added).
How do I explain 2 Cor 5:17 (ESV)? This reads, 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation [or creature]. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come'. This verse does not contradict what I've said. The person who is grafted into Christ is a new creature and the old has passed away with the new creation coming because of faith in Christ. That faith will be demonstrated by persevering to the end. I consider that Henry Thiessen's definition summarises the biblical material well:
I hope that that gives some more clarity to my understanding of the perseverance of the saints. Both Calvinists and Classical/Reformed Arminians teach this view.
Oz
Works consulted
Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
Wormwood
Chaps
The first person to teach OSAS was Augustine, who also originated the "Calvinist" system in general. The system was based in the concept of total depravity which involved bondage of the will and resulted in a monergistic view of salvation.
Later, there have been those who have rejected the Calvinist system who felt the OSAS doctrine could stand alone, even though they may have rejected the monergistic view from which the doctrine was developed. So, OSAS is a logical necessity for the Calvinist, wheras others felt a need to hold to the view, "independent of its original and logical mooring."
Personally, I feel that if one rejects the root of TULIP system (TULI) there is little reason to hold on to the fruit of it (P). I do not find sufficient biblical justification for it, although I realize I likely hold the minority view.
Later, there have been those who have rejected the Calvinist system who felt the OSAS doctrine could stand alone, even though they may have rejected the monergistic view from which the doctrine was developed. So, OSAS is a logical necessity for the Calvinist, wheras others felt a need to hold to the view, "independent of its original and logical mooring."
Personally, I feel that if one rejects the root of TULIP system (TULI) there is little reason to hold on to the fruit of it (P). I do not find sufficient biblical justification for it, although I realize I likely hold the minority view.
Perseverance of the saints is biblical and originated in the word of God 2,000 years ago.Wormwood said:
"When we believed" (past tense), we were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit until death Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.
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