Power and Love.

[Carl Emerson]

It seems a main contention regarding the function of Church today boils down to the relationship between power and love.

We have those who quote 1 Cor 13 as if its message eclipses 1 Cor 12 - yet the great commission and indeed the actions of early believers confirm that unity and community was foundational and the gifts were operating to confirm the Kingdom coming to both Jew and Gentile.

Sadly neither of the two main camps attempting to grab the attention of believers and the unsaved have successfully combined these two foundational elements of faith.

Firstly, those who insist on Love and deny power - reducing the actions of believers to study, personal devotion and gathering, deny the empowering that evidences the Kingdom.
Such gatherings try to touch the world, but are powerless to demonstrate the Kingship of Jesus over evil bondages, sickness and disease.
Such gatherings do well to preserve fundamental truths but sadly have become little more than a museum to a faith that once was.

Secondly those who insist on Power, in the main lack the Love - the ingredient that in combination with genuine divine power, should testify to the new and living Kingdom.
The very essential foundation on which the gifts evidencing the Kingdom need to operate is Love and Unity.
This requires necessary community in which these gifts genuinely develop, the least are heard and His Voice eventually prevails.
Sadly few make this journey because the cost is high in working through inevitable relationship issues - it is much easier to just Lord it over and present a staged version of the kingdom in action.

There is a third group who stand on the liturgical traditions, as if form and control are essential to true fellowship. They maintain an orderly presentation of His Living Kingdom. In this the transition from temple to meeting house is largely lost and healthy community is also very rare.


So this is a call to review what it means to gather in Him - a return to first Love - sharing and equality - Worship and Love never ceasing - leadership that does not 'Lord it Over'
This will be attractive to the World, this is essential to true evangelism (John 17:23 "I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me".)

Community is a natural response to persecution - this is why the Jews are so good at it.

Let's return to First Love before we are forced to - as hatred of the faith increases.

 

[Ritajanice]

So this is a call to review what it means to gather in Him - a return to first Love - sharing and equality - Worship and Love never ceasing - leadership that does not 'Lord it Over'
This will be attractive to the World, this is essential to true evangelism (John 17:23 "I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me".)

This is interesting , to be in Jesus is to deny self, don’t you think as Born Again we can only get to that place of understanding by the Spirit, isn’t this to do with working out our salvation?

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

The Spirit imo certainly does not do everything for us, I do believe though that he’s at work in our heart/ spirit constantly bringing us to a deeper level of spiritual understanding.....we’re on a journey ..as we were Born Again by the will of God according to his purpose and plan.

He Loved us first in our spirit...to know that Love Of God was overwhelming.....

Only the Spirit can work in our hearts to become more and more like Jesus , I don’t have the power to do that, I get very frustrated with self at times, ...then I come to realise that God is in complete control of my life...just my thoughts Carl...hope that’s ok to post..

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is interesting , to be in Jesus is to deny self, don’t you think as Born Again we can only get to that place of understanding by the Spirit, isn’t this to do with working out our salvation?

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

The Spirit imo certainly does not do everything for us, I do believe though that he’s at work in our heart/ spirit constantly bringing us to a deeper level of spiritual understanding.....we’re on a journey ..as we were Born Again by the will of God according to his purpose and plan.

He Loved us first in our spirit...to know that Love Of God was overwhelming.....

Only the Spirit can work in our hearts to become more and more like Jesus , I don’t have the power to do that, I get very frustrated with self at times, ...then I come to realise that God is in complete control of my life...just my thoughts Carl...hope that’s ok to post..

All good - and any comments welcome.

This was a general exhortation to would-be Church Leaders.

'Love and Power' is His Love and His Power.

We need to rethink how we gather and 'do church'

It is all there in Scripture but we have largely let tradition dictate our thinking about such things.

 

[Behold]

It seems a main contention regarding the function of Church today boils down to the relationship between power and love.

1.) Faith that is working through love, is the end goal of discipleship., as a performance.

So, to have achieved this, the person would write........"I can do all things through Christ".. "Christ always gives me the Victory". and "without faith its impossible to please God".

What is all that?
= That is the power of """"" Christ in you the hope of Glory""......that is.... "I can do all things through Christ", which is to be separated from any type of do-ism, or willful striving to become something.

In Fact, the more you try to be like Christ the more you are faking it, and are nothing like Him., Reader.

To be like Christ, is not a performance, its a revelation.

God knowledge is revelation knowledge, and that is how you learn what it means to be a CHRISTian.

Listen......CHRISTianity, is Christ becoming You, as you become less of you, and less of you..


Also, you have a type of believer who has been taught that the "Acts of the Apostles", the "Book of Acts", are the "Acts of the Christian", and that is of course, not the case.
But you have denominations that are trying to counterfeit the Book of Acts, and you end up with a "mess of flesh", and an incredible opera of fakery.


2.) Gifts of the Spirit..

Pursue not the sign gifts, like "tongues"..... but pursue the wisdom and discernment gifts, as those are essential for ministering.

Everyone is called to be a minister... to minister to the lost, the hurting, the poor, the helpless, ect.

Ask God to give you a heart to love the Bible, and to love to Pray and Praise, and to love being a HELP, as that gift of "HELPS" that Paul designated.... is the one that makes you the best CHRISTIAN of all., Reader.

If you are the best Theologian but are a help to NOONE, then you are a FAILURE at being a CHRISTian.

Jesus helps and helps and helps.

You TOOOO.
Be that one all the time.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1.) Faith that is working through love, is the end goal of discipleship., as a performance.

So, to have achieved this, the person would write........"I can do all things through Christ".. "Christ always gives me the Victory". and "without faith its impossible to please God".

What is all that?
= That is the power of """"" Christ in you the hope of Glory""......that is.... "I can do all things through Christ", which is to be separated from any type of do-ism, or willful striving to become something.

In Fact, the more you try to be like Christ the more you are faking it, and are nothing like Him., Reader.

To be like Christ, is not a performance, its a revelation.

God knowledge is revelation knowledge, and that is how you learn what it means to be a CHRISTian.

Listen......CHRISTianity, is Christ becoming You, as you become less of you, and less of you..


Also, you have a type of believer who has been taught that the "Acts of the Apostles", the "Book of Acts", are the "Acts of the Christian", and that is of course, not the case.
But you have denominations that are trying to counterfeit the Book of Acts, and you end up with a "mess of flesh", and an incredible opera of fakery.


2.) Gifts of the Spirit..

Pursue not the sign gifts, like "tongues"..... but pursue the wisdom and discernment gifts, as those are essential for ministering.

Everyone is called to be a minister... to minister to the lost, the hurting, the poor, the helpless, ect.

Ask God to give you a heart to love the Bible, and to love to Pray and Praise, and to love being a HELP, as that gift of "HELPS" that Paul designated.... is the one that makes you the best CHRISTIAN of all., Reader.

If you are the best Theologian but are a help to NOONE, then you are a FAILURE at being a CHRISTian.

Jesus helps and helps and helps.

You TOOOO.
Be that one all the time.

Yes - some good points here...

However the issue remaining is the relationship between gathering for fellowship and the formation of community.

I see much of the Wisdom around how community should operate in the OT yet to be Christ centred as a people introduces an entirely new dimension to how we should live.

How can unity among believers be visible to the world any other way?

Then there is the issue of potential conflict of authority between Leaders of the Gathered and those who facilitate harmony in community life. I see a biblical mandate for both functions.

Faith working through love sure is needed and central, but evidence of the Rule of the Kingdom is also part of the great Commission and remains a sign of the Kingship of Jesus.

 

[marks]

It seems a main contention regarding the function of Church today boils down to the relationship between power and love.

I think the simplicity of the Bible's teaching in this regard is that as we are trusting God, believing Him, and all He says and does, we will become filled with His love, which will overflow for others, and from that love, we will serve them, caring from the heart for their wellbeing.

This is the goal of the believer. Whatever part of this ideal that we can apprehend, even a small part, we are to commit ourselves to this, not despising days of small beginnings, knowing that as we do what we can, God will give us more. There is no power without obedience first. We must choose to obey, and only then will we find the power to obey.

Having chosen to obey, we've released the means and the outcome to God. This is faith in His power. We obey, showing we believe it's worth it, that God can bring it to pass, whatever He has commanded.

I think this is the meaning of, I will show you a more excellent way, the way of love. I think this kind of faith/love/service is what knits us together into one.

I appreciate your making the distinction between having fellowship with others, and forming a community. Living in Orange County, a little over 3 million people, well, the congregation I'm in, maybe 3 miles away, hosts a group that live up to 10 miles away, meaning most of us are scattered over several cities. Community building becomes more difficult. The church property is the only common ground. This is why I appreciate the reminder to always try to increase the contact and bond between us.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

How can unity among believers be visible to the world any other way?

How can the "world" see Christ at all, if all the believers do is worry about theology and going to church on Sunday, on time?

Its actually the Church building that can prevent access to Jesus, when the unbeliever believes that they have to "go to church" to find Him, or to be accepted by God.

What the local church offers, more then anything else, is a sanctuary for your family, and a means to learn about God's way and God's word, so that you can share this with the world.

A Church building, and going to church, is the beginnings, not the end........its the initial, not the main walk of Faith.


Let me show you what i mean...... an example... and just one example.

A person says........>>"i went to church all my life, on time, never missed a sunday morning service... and i spoke in my prayer language, there, for 56 yrs"..

And they die, one day.
Now... they are at the Bema seat, and Jesus says........>"what did you do for me in my Body".

And they say.."I went to church for 51 yrs, on time, every sunday morn, and i spoke in my prayer language there, a lot".

And Jesus says...>>"ok, but what did you do for me in my body". ????

See the issue?
He does...
And its a real issue.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How can the "world" see Christ at all, if all the believers do is worry about theology and going to church on Sunday, on time?

Its actually the Church building that can prevent access to Jesus, when the unbeliever believes that they have to "go to church" to find Him, or to be accepted by God.

What the local church offers, more then anything else, is a sanctuary for your family, and a means to learn about God's way and God's word, so that you can share this with the world.

A Church building, and going to church, is the beginnings, not the end........its the initial, not the main walk of Faith.


Let me show you what i mean...... an example... and just one example.

A person says........>>"i went to church all my life, on time, never missed a sunday morning service... and i spoke in my prayer language, there, for 56 yrs"..

And they die, one day.
Now... they are at the Bema seat, and Jesus says........>"what did you do for me in my Body".

And they say.."I went to church for 51 yrs, on time, every sunday morn, and i spoke in my prayer language there, a lot".

And Jesus says...>>"ok, but what did you do for me in my body". ????

See the issue?
He does...
And its a real issue.

Maybe you didnt read my OP carefully ????

This is what I have been saying from the outset.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I wrote this back in 2009...

Living our Christian Faith Together.​

In my first essay I spoke about returning to unity-based fellowship as a stepping stone to rediscovering the power of Jesus.
Today I have another issue for us to consider, the neglect of community in our modern Christian lives.

In the last five decades I have seen the erosion of community in society in general. The corner store was squeezed out by the supermarket; the local urban cop is no more. We know few others in our streets these days. Spontaneous local support has been largely replaced by professional ‘care-givers’ A church elder once regularly visited every family in the parish. Nowadays the churches are often closed during the week and the needy soul no longer has access to a caring father heart, rather a professional counsellor at a cost.

As if God had an answer to this trend, back in the 70’s many mainline churches experienced very significant growth, assisted initially by the evangelism crusades of Billy Graham, and later Luis Palau and others, but more significantly, a re-discovery of signs and wonders Christianity akin to that recorded in the book of Acts.
There was a great deal of bible study going on then, as leaders and lay alike tried to understand how this new mode of Christian life with phenomena like healing and prophecy, and a strong sense of community among believers should be lived.
Families were beginning to break bread together with friends – unheard of before.
At that time various attempts were made to establish some form of Christian community with varying success. There was a tension between the house meetings that spontaneously sprung up and the official church-based activities. Would they try to grow into churches, would control be lost? Would the church lose out on the tithes?
During this period of New Zealand church history there were many outstanding miracles as Jesus was for a time able to move with a fluid body of believers but this was not to last.
Strong ‘cover’ teaching began to reign in many of the believers who were enjoying a vibrant but threatening walk with Jesus. Little theological room was given to the notion of a corporate cooperating body of believers in a district having daily fellowship outside the organised programmes of the church.

Now the mandate for corporate living goes back a long way in fact scripturally precedes the birth of the church. Further the first churches functioned with a vibrant community in support, in which there was sharing of possessions, elimination of material hardship and a resulting material equality (Acts2 2:42-47 and 2 Cor 8: 13-15)
We are light years away from this today and are missing out on being the visible testimony of Gods love in the process.
Jesus indicated in John 17:23 that the visible unity of the believers was a key aspect of evangelism. The modern church has lacked significant conversion growth for decades for this reason.
Not only do we lack this vibrant community today but many of the modern churches are without shame adopting a business or an army model, alienating those who naturally seek a family experience.

What then is the answer?
We need to let the Church attend to matters like the call to corporate worship, apostolic teaching, and prayer while the believers in community are devoted to neighbourhood fellowship, lay ministry, market place evangelism, as a separate yet co-operating spiritual entity, visible to the world. Then the gathering of the saints for church worship would be an occasion to share testimony of what the Lord has done, with the associated spontaneous response of praise and thanks upon which true worship naturally builds.
The challenge is to implement a structural change to the way we do our Christianity.
No longer should all our Christian activity proceed from the ‘vision’ of the local church. Families with a like call to Christian living should combine and become an effective expression of Jesus in their neighbourhood. This movement would cut across the denominational divide and feed back new life into all the churches. Many believers who have given up attending church would relate to such a vibrant non-church life and return to fellowship.
This model tends to operate in parts of the world where Christianity is under persecution. While it is true that true faith under pressure produces resurrection life, why wait for things to get worse when we can combine now?
There is little opportunity for Church leaders to step outside traditional thinking and grapple with the issues being raised here let alone implement such change.
That change can however happen from initiatives that you and I make. I invite you to pray about who you can meet with on a regular basis to pray together and with God’s direction begin to combine together as we read in the early chapters of Acts.

 

[Behold]

Maybe you didnt read my OP carefully ????

This is what I have been saying from the outset.

Really?

Hummm.

My post simply stated that Christians need a local assembly for the sake of their Family, but each Christian individually, needs to produce for God outside the Church walls...

So, you wrote this, and frankly its so obtuse, i can't even relate to what you are trying to say... other then you are trying to equate "power' with "Spiritual Gifts".

Here is yours..

""""""""It seems a main contention regarding the function of Church today boils down to the relationship between power and love.

We have those who quote 1 Cor 13 as if its message eclipses 1 Cor 12 - yet the great commission and indeed the actions of early believers confirm that unity and community was foundational and the gifts were operating to confirm the Kingdom coming to both Jew and Gentile.

Firstly, those who insist on Love and deny power - reducing the actions of believers to study, personal devotion and gathering, deny the empowering that evidences the Kingdom. """"""

 

[Carl Emerson]

Other folks can understand me perfectly.

That sentence refers to the ongoing division between secessionists and continuationists.

 

[Behold]

Other folks can understand me perfectly.

That sentence refers to the ongoing division between secessionists and continuationists.

Yet my original post to you, has nothing to do with any of that, and you said that my post is what you were saying in your Thread.

That's a no.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yet my original post to you, has nothing to do with any of that, and you said that my post is what you were saying in your Thread.

That's a no.

Whay part of your post do you think I don't agree with ?

 

[Behold]

Whay part of your post do you think I don't agree with ?

Again... what are you talking about?
ive not said that your Thread does not agree with my Post.
I said that you Thread has nothing to do with my post.....they are not the same subject., and you said they are the same...

They're not.

My Post speaks about Christians having a church home, and a place to learn how to go out and give Jesus to the World.
And i stated that Some Christians, believe that being In Church all the time is real Christianity, as if that is the goal of Salvation.
So, these are become useless.

You didnt post a sentence about any of that in your Thread.
Notice also that i didnt address spiritual gifts, per say.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I said that you Thread has nothing to do with my post.....

Then I suggest you stay on the subject and don't use my thread to introduce your topics.

 

[Behold]

Then I suggest you stay on the subject and don't use my thread to introduce your topics.

So, all your double talk finally led you to post that...

Excellent @Carl Emerson .

And honestly, your Thread's Title is "power and love", yet your Thread's actual explanation, is not clearly related.

I can, however, appreciate that your idea of "Power" is gifts of the Spirit.

A lot of people have that concept.

- Ok then, Thx.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So, all your double talk finally led you to post that...

Excellent @Carl Emerson .

And honestly, your Thread's Title is "power and love", yet your Thread's actual explanation, is not clearly related.

I can, however, appreciate that your idea of "Power" is gifts of the Spirit.

A lot of people have that concept.

- Ok then, Thx.

You are welcome.

 

[CC7799]

Its obiedence and those who do will of God, Mark chapter 3.

Hebrews chapter 5

After 20 Year's, congregation should be teachers of God's word. Some Christians are bibillcy illiterate. It's the church fault. I'm not knocking churches down. There are few decent churches Left.

Top priority is for shepherds to teach Gods word. Not building projects or social activities.

Jesus set the example. He taught daily in the temple. Was Jesus interested in money or chatter ???

Some people just don't get it. James chapter 1. Be doers of the word not hearers only deceiving your own selves.

Lip service won't cut it.

Christian people study Bible every Day. Carrying your cross isn't once week. Its every Day.

In gospel of Acts. Evangelist, Philip, spent 20 years preaching from gaza to ceasera.

Them Philip four daughters took over as teachers. Lot of talky pooh. I'm jesting.

It's written in Corinthians, Charity is the greatest. Love.

As al Pacino would say, What are we doing, what do you got !!?

Shepherds are to plant seeds for God. Corinthians chapter 3.

We preach and teach Gods word. We're trying to pull as Many headed for hell, as possible.

If they refuse to repent and reject salvation, blood is on their own heads, Ezekiel chapter 33 to document.

Charity is the greatest.