Praying to the saints and the canonization of Catholic saints

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Enoch111

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Two of the most bizarre teachings of the Catholic Church are that (1) saints can be beatified and then canonized by the pope and (2) then these saints can be prayed to for their intercession, since that is the veneration that they deserve. And the two things are connected. But you must be a dead saint to begin with!

According to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (with all quotations from the same article)
"The true origin of canonization and beatification must be sought in the Catholic doctrine of the worship (cultus), invocation, and intercession of the saints... The reason of this veneration lies, doubtless, in the resemblance of the confessors' self-denying and heroically virtuous lives to the sufferings of the martyrs..."

So if you want to be a Catholic saint you must be *heroically virtuous*. And here is the meaning of that term:
"In order to be heroic a Christian virtue must enable its owner to perform virtuous actions with uncommon promptitude, ease, and pleasure, from supernatural motives and without human reasoning, with self-abnegation and full control over his natural inclinations..." In other words, a super-spiritual Christian (although in reality they may have been different).

Who would determine whether you were heroically virtuous?
Towards the close of the eleventh century the popes found it necessary to restrict episcopal authority on this point, and decreed that the virtues and miracles of persons proposed for public veneration should be examined in councils, more particularly in general councils...” In other words Catholic bishops would make that decision, and this would be a “decree of beatification”.

However the Pope would be the one to canonize a Catholic saint: "
Canonization, generally speaking, is a decree regarding the public ecclesiastical veneration of an individual... In the ancient discipline of the Church, probably even as late as Alexander III, bishops could in their several dioceses allow public veneration to be paid to saints, and such episcopal decrees were not merely permissive, but, in my opinion, preceptive. Such decrees, however, could not prescribe universal honour; the effect of an episcopal act of this kind, was equivalent to our modern beatification. In such cases there was, properly speaking, no canonization, unless with the consent of the pope extending the cultus in question, implicitly or explicitly, and imposing it by way of precept upon the Church at large..." [Please note the connection between "cultus" and "cult"]

Along with “heroic virtue” the saint would have to be well-known for bringing about miracles through his or her intercession
: "Equivalent canonization occurs when the pope, omitting the judicial process and the ceremonies, orders some servant of God to be venerated in the Universal Church; this happens when such a saint has been from a remote period the object of veneration, when his heroic virtues (or martyrdom) and miracles are related by reliable historians, and the fame of his miraculous intercession is uninterrupted..."

But a pope would have to have papal infallibility in order to declare you to be a saint. So now we come to another false doctrine of the RCC: "
Is the pope infallible in issuing a decree of canonization? Most theologians answer in the affirmative.... In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet..."

So what would be the reason for the beatification, canonization, and veneration of the saints? So that you could pray to them! From the article on “The Communion of Saints”:
"That the Anglo-Saxons held the doctrine of the communion of saints may be judged from the following account given by Lingard in his "History and Antiquities of the Anglo-Saxon Church." They received the practice of venerating the saints, he says, together with the rudiments the Christian religion; and they manifested their devotion to them both in public and private worship: in public, by celebrating the anniversaries of individual saints, and keeping annually the feast of All-Hallows as a solemnity of the first class; and in their private devotions, by observing the instructions to worship God and then to "pray, first to Saint Mary, and the holy apostles, and the holy martyrs, and all God's saints, that they would intercede for them to God". In this way they learned to look up to the saints in heaven with feelings of confidence and affection, to consider them as friends and protectors, and to implore their aid in the hour of distress, with the hope that God would grant to the patron what he might otherwise refuse to the supplicant."

Does the Bible categorically refute this doctrine and practice? Absolutely.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. (1 Tim 2:5-8)

 
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Stan B

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Two of the most bizarre teachings of the Catholic Church are that (1) saints can be beatified and then canonized by the pope and (2) then these saints can be prayed to for their intercession, since that is the veneration that they deserve. And the two things are connected. But you must be a dead saint to begin with!

According to the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (with all quotations from the same article)
"The true origin of canonization and beatification must be sought in the Catholic doctrine of the worship (cultus), invocation, and intercession of the saints... The reason of this veneration lies, doubtless, in the resemblance of the confessors' self-denying and heroically virtuous lives to the sufferings of the martyrs..."

So if you want to be a Catholic saint you must be *heroically virtuous*. And here is the meaning of that term:
"In order to be heroic a Christian virtue must enable its owner to perform virtuous actions with uncommon promptitude, ease, and pleasure, from supernatural motives and without human reasoning, with self-abnegation and full control over his natural inclinations..." In other words, a super-spiritual Christian (although in reality they may have been different).

Who would determine whether you were heroically virtuous?
Towards the close of the eleventh century the popes found it necessary to restrict episcopal authority on this point, and decreed that the virtues and miracles of persons proposed for public veneration should be examined in councils, more particularly in general councils...” In other words Catholic bishops would make that decision, and this would be a “decree of beatification”.

However the Pope would be the one to canonize a Catholic saint: "
Canonization, generally speaking, is a decree regarding the public ecclesiastical veneration of an individual... In the ancient discipline of the Church, probably even as late as Alexander III, bishops could in their several dioceses allow public veneration to be paid to saints, and such episcopal decrees were not merely permissive, but, in my opinion, preceptive. Such decrees, however, could not prescribe universal honour; the effect of an episcopal act of this kind, was equivalent to our modern beatification. In such cases there was, properly speaking, no canonization, unless with the consent of the pope extending the cultus in question, implicitly or explicitly, and imposing it by way of precept upon the Church at large..." [Please note the connection between "cultus" and "cult"]

Along with “heroic virtue” the saint would have to be well-known for bringing about miracles through his or her intercession
: "Equivalent canonization occurs when the pope, omitting the judicial process and the ceremonies, orders some servant of God to be venerated in the Universal Church; this happens when such a saint has been from a remote period the object of veneration, when his heroic virtues (or martyrdom) and miracles are related by reliable historians, and the fame of his miraculous intercession is uninterrupted..."

But a pope would have to have papal infallibility in order to declare you to be a saint. So now we come to another false doctrine of the RCC: "
Is the pope infallible in issuing a decree of canonization? Most theologians answer in the affirmative.... In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet..."

So what would be the reason for the beatification, canonization, and veneration of the saints? So that you could pray to them! From the article on “The Communion of Saints”:
"That the Anglo-Saxons held the doctrine of the communion of saints may be judged from the following account given by Lingard in his "History and Antiquities of the Anglo-Saxon Church." They received the practice of venerating the saints, he says, together with the rudiments the Christian religion; and they manifested their devotion to them both in public and private worship: in public, by celebrating the anniversaries of individual saints, and keeping annually the feast of All-Hallows as a solemnity of the first class; and in their private devotions, by observing the instructions to worship God and then to "pray, first to Saint Mary, and the holy apostles, and the holy martyrs, and all God's saints, that they would intercede for them to God". In this way they learned to look up to the saints in heaven with feelings of confidence and affection, to consider them as friends and protectors, and to implore their aid in the hour of distress, with the hope that God would grant to the patron what he might otherwise refuse to the supplicant."

Does the Bible categorically refute this doctrine and practice? Absolutely.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. (1 Tim 2:5-8)


Enoch, I sometimes hear the bogus rhetoric "God hates the sin, but He loves the sinner". But "praying" to or contacting the dead, is one of the sins where God regards as "detestable", the people who do such things.

"When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is DETESTABLE TO THE Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so." Deut 18:9

As you point out, there is ONE mediator between God and man, which brings to the forefront, the title "Pontiff" claimed by the pope, i.e., "pontiff" in English is "bridge", the bridge between God and man!!!!
 
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Philip James

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But "praying" to or contacting the dead, is

Hello Stan,

Asking those who have gone before us to pray for us is not 'contacting the dead', it is conversing with those who are very much alive...
'he who believes in me will never die..'

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!
 

Stan B

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Hello Stan,

Asking those who have gone before us to pray for us is not 'contacting the dead', it is conversing with those who are very much alive...
'he who believes in me will never die..'

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

Sorry Philip, but I refuse to believe in the nonsense, that the Virgin Mary, or any other saints in Heaven, are stuck with the arduous task of having their joy in Heaven wiped out by having to listen to billions of greedy self-serving prayers every day!!
 
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Philip James

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Sorry Philip, but I refuse to believe in the nonsense, that the Virgin Mary, or any other saints in Heaven, are stuck with the arduous task of having their joy in Heaven wiped out by having to listen to billions of greedy self-serving prayers every day!!

You are free to do as you wish of course, but to paint the communion of the saints as an occult practice akin to 'calling up the dead' is disingenuous..

Peace!
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Sorry Philip, but I refuse to believe in the nonsense, that the Virgin Mary, or any other saints in Heaven, are stuck with the arduous task of having their joy in Heaven wiped out by having to listen to billions of greedy self-serving prayers every day!!
What do you think that someone in Heaven would do ? a free ride of bliss or want to help poor souls attain.
Not one self-serving payer would come across in fact.
The ones who have gone before us only give us strength.
Many Prots have no idea what they are talking about because they are to worldly to grasp the reality of the subject.
It is true that many RC are total fools and that they are doing just what the prots say that they are doing, I have seen that.

If one's Spirit never dies what does it do ?

If one is 100% dedicated to Jesus Christ in their life, what would they do when in Heaven ?

What would you do if one asked you to pray for them, be glad to or offended that they asked.
 

Stan B

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You are free to do as you wish of course, but to paint the communion of the saints as an occult practice akin to 'calling up the dead' is disingenuous..

Peace!
Philip
You are free to do as you wish of course, but to paint the communion of the saints as an occult practice akin to 'calling up the dead' is disingenuous..

Peace!

Philp says >> "You are free to do as you wish of course"

Yes, I can do as I wish, and the choice I have made is "if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36 And He has instructed me how to pray: "Our Father who art in Heaven". Jesus never tells us to pray to even Him, or a bunch of dead people, but only to the Father in His name.

God warns us about communicating with the dead through "a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is DETESTABLE TO THE Lord" Deut 18:9

Although God detests such practice, it is embraced by a pagan cult that broke away from the Church in AD 1049 to practice their pagan religion. They call themselves Roman Catholics. Their intense hatred of God was expressed by burning translators of the Bible at the stake. And when they could not get their hands on Wycliffe, while he was alive, thirty years after his death, they dug up his remains and burned them to ashes.

This religion worships the ancient pagan goddess called the "Queen of Heaven", and even the pope kneels before her statue!! This evil cult was known to prophet Jeremiah. They were so evil and beyond redemption that God instructed the prophet:

"Do not pray for this people, and do not lift up cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with Me; for I do not hear you." Jeremiah 7:18

"Do you not see what they are doing . . . The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make round cakes (communion wafers) for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me. Do they spite Me?” declares the Lord. “Is it not themselves they spite, to their own shame?” Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, My anger and My wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and on beast and on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground; and it will burn and not be quenched.” Jeremiah 7:18

In addition to their worship of the Queen of Heaven, they have created a host of other false gods who instead of Zeus, Hercules, Odin, Thor, etc. and have given these fake gods new names like St. Peter. St. Joan, St. Valentine, Queen of Heaven etc. A pagan god/goddess by any other name is still pagan.

When King Saul summoned Samuel from the dead, Samuel was very angry that Saul had defied God's Law, and said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” 1 Samuel 28 "therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me [amongst the dead]." Saul and his family were all killed the next day!

As for me and my family, we will not follow some counterfeit cult, but we will follow the Lord as He has revealed Himself in Scripture!
 

theefaith

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[/QUOTE]

we honor those who God honors!
Rom 13:7

Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the Lord God oftheir fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.

should we not as fathers imitate the life and virtues of st. Joseph who the scripture identifies as a just man?
The husband of Mary.

No dead saints!

  1. John 11:25
    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    James 5:16
    Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    Heroic virtue

    Suffering Necessary part of Salvation!

    Heb 2:9-10 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    He is our model in everything!

    Christian suffering!

    Patience Implies suffering!

    In order to bear fruit we must deny ourself, suffer, and die!

    John 12:24
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    Verses of Christian suffering:

    Matthew 10:38
    And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    Matthew 16:24
    Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    Matthew 16:25
    For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

    John 12:24
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    25
    He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

    Romans 5:3
    And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

    Romans 5:4
    And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

    Romans 8:17
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    2 Corinthians 12:9
    And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    2 Thessalonians 1:5
    Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

    Colossians 1:11
    Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

    2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

    2 Timothy 2:12
    If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

    Phil 1:29
    For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    James 1:2-8
    My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

    Hebrews 6:12
    That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

    Hebrews 10:36
    For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

    Hebrews 12:4
    Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

    1 Peter 2:20
    For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

    Romans 8:17
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    2 Timothy 2:12
    If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

    Authority to beatification and canonization Matt 16:18 matt 18:18
    And that includes canonization of scripture, holy mother church says what is and what is not scripture and it’s meaning