Pre-destination and the elect

[JoeinArkansas]

From what I hear you say, Joe, I think we're on basically the same page. That was the point of my earlier mentioning when God calls each and every person, in their own time, i.e. when He does the calling. That's because no man can come save the Spirit draw him. Now that being said, there will be those incorrigibly wicked that will not repent, even when called, and refuse God. I think Jesus himself clearly said about perishing. Paul talks about sin and death. It is my belief that relatively few will ultimately end up this way, at least I hope that's the case because I want men saved, too.

Tim,
If there are a few who are not saved, then Christ is at fault. He is the one responsible for saving us. What scriptures make you think that a few will not be saved?
Joe

To me, the question turns on whether God granted man free will or not. If it is God that determines who will accept Christ and be saved, then there is no free will. It is as simple as that. If God decided you were not to accept Christ, then it is "tough luck buddy" for you. That seems counter to the nature of God as the Bible reveals Him to us. I believe that the genuine freedom of choice is one of the attributes of God that we share, being made "in His image". In imparting something of Himself in us, we receive freedom and with freedom comes the real possibility of acting in a way contrary to God’s will.

Predestination, as taught by the strict Calvinists, is difficult for me to reconcile with the rest of scripture, where we are admonished to take steps such as to repent, believe, abide, etc. These are all commands to exercise our volition. If we are not free to exercice volition, then nothing makes much sense to me.

Now, I do agree that God must call us, but I believe He calls everyone to salvation. Salvation is His work alone, and the faith to receive it comes from Him. But some can reject Him. So I guess it is the "irresistable grace" part that I have the most problem with.

Dear Brother James,
Scripture NEVER says that mankind has the power to make uncaused choices nor does it say we have "free will". Scripture clearly says that God's "will" rules over our "will". However, God does not force us to submit to His will. He is much wiser than to do it the way carnal man would do it. Forcing mankind to make a choice does not give God any glory. What God does is to put all the factors in place, within us and outside of us, so that the choice we make is in line with His "will". He created us and knows us better than we know ourselves.

The evil within us is only temporary. God is responsible for our condition and He will be responsilble when that evil is removed from us. At the present, God puts all the factors in place so that we sin - some horribly so. But once God's purpose is served, then each and every man will be called, given faith and the Holy Spirit. Then He will judge us and His judgment will destroy the man of sin within each of us and a new man in Christ will be born. Paul considered himself the "chief of sinners" and Paul was no match for God when his time to repent came. Paul was not just "blowing smoke" either about himself being the chief of sinners. God's "will" of saving all mankind and producing many children of God will happen because God will make it happen - not by force but by conversion. The gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance. That means when God decides to convert someone, He calls them and changes them. He does all the work. We merely respond in the way that God knows we will respond. Most people don't have much faith in God's abilities. But someday they will because God will supply them with enough faith to finally believe Him.

Joe

 

[justaname]

Joe,

True all are called to be saved, few are chosen. The Bible also states:

2 Timothy 2:20

20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. ​

21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.​

Now one may say yes but this is for the church, but I say nay fear the LORD for Yeshua always spoke of the second death to fear for He is a righteous Judge. Hope is in Christ against both the first and second death. The dishonor is the shame of being an enemy of Christ! ​

 

[rand]

Joe,

True all are called to be saved, few are chosen. The Bible also states:

2 Timothy 2:20

20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. ​

21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.​

Now one may say yes but this is for the church, but I say nay fear the LORD for Yeshua always spoke of the second death to fear for He is a righteous Judge. Hope is in Christ against both the first and second death. The dishonor is the shame of being an enemy of Christ! ​

question. cleanses himself from (These) what things? profane and vain babblings??? frm vrs 16.

2) Yeshua spoke of the second death to fear when He was talking to those who were not saved. If you're not saved, you should fear the second death. It was good of Him to point it out, don't you think?

 

[justaname]

Rand

I am uncertain of your question but yes I appreciate His warning.

 

[Brother James]

Joe, the problem I have with your line of reasoning is that it makes God the author of evil. That is something that is in direct violation of His nature. If He controls ever outcome by putting all the factors in place to force us into acting in accordance to His will (which I don't find in scripture, by the way) then He is responsible for every outcome. If God puts all the factors in place so we will sin, that makes Him the author of sin as well.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Tim,
If there are a few who are not saved, then Christ is at fault. He is the one responsible for saving us. What scriptures make you think that a few will not be saved?
Joe

Maybe because of that mention of Judgment and the lake of fire. Clear, straightforward. Why is it Christ's fault if a person was called and he ultimately refused? It would only be God's fault if He gave a person no choice or chance then it would be unfair.

I don't adhere to universal salvation doctrine, but I do believe in a universal chance for everyone. My employer is responsible for paying me, but not if i don't do the work or otherwise refuse the pay.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I was thinking about this today, particularly th part about vessels being made for honor and dishonor. It seems on the surface that some of us are "predestined" for dishonor. In all actuality this shows that some will say, "because I was created with imperfect flesh and a nature to sin, it's not my fault, so I shouldn't be held accountable.". In fact we are accountable, and we're not to question God for the seemingly purposefull creation with propensity for sin. None of these verses say some are predestined for heaven while others are predestined for hell. Sorry if I'm not real clear, this is being typed on a phone.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

question. cleanses himself from (These) what things? profane and vain babblings??? frm vrs 16.

2) Yeshua spoke of the second death to fear when He was talking to those who were not saved. If you're not saved, you should fear the second death. It was good of Him to point it out, don't you think?

Rand,
I'll answer your 2nd question first: The second death is to be feared because God will judge the wicked in WRATH. It will be a time of great tribulation for those being judged. But as with any judgment of God, it has a beginning and an end. The end comes when God's purpose for the judgment is satisfied and the behavior those being judged is corrected. It is corrected because they too will be changed into a new man in Christ. As I have said many times, "judgment" is a necessary part of the salvation process. The church is being judged now in this age. All others will be judged in the final age. When it is all completed, then all men will be saved and will come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now to answer your 1st question. The profane and vain babblings are the teachings of the harlot churches of the world. We are commanded to study the Word, line upon line, precept upon precept, rightly dividing the Word and never forgeting that the SUM of God's Word is truth. We must search for His truth as if we are searching for hidden treasure. Finding the knowledge of God is a great blessing and is only shared with the "few". The "many" only find profane and vain babblings. The greatest day of my life was when the Lord came to me a second time and healed my spiritual vision so that I could find His hidden treasure. I had been in the church for 44 years and I thought I knew the meaning of the scriptures well. But after I was healed, I knew all I had found before were profance and vain babblings.

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

It is not such an easy thing to find the knowledge of God.

Joe

Joe, the problem I have with your line of reasoning is that it makes God the author of evil. That is something that is in direct violation of His nature. If He controls ever outcome by putting all the factors in place to force us into acting in accordance to His will (which I don't find in scripture, by the way) then He is responsible for every outcome. If God puts all the factors in place so we will sin, that makes Him the author of sin as well.

Dear Brother James,
God is the author of evil in this world. But He uses evil for His good purposes because ALL THINGS (including evil) work together for good. Have you not ever read these verses?

[font=Trebuchet MS"] Isa 45:5-7 I a m the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.[/font]

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

There can be no doubt that God is the author of evil. He said that He created it and that he uses it for His own purposes. However, God is not evil. Evil is but a tool that God uses to create good. Mankind does not have that ability but God does.

Joe

Maybe because of that mention of Judgment and the lake of fire. Clear, straightforward. Why is it Christ's fault if a person was called and he ultimately refused? It would only be God's fault if He gave a person no choice or chance then it would be unfair.

I don't adhere to universal salvation doctrine, but I do believe in a universal chance for everyone. My employer is responsible for paying me, but not if i don't do the work or otherwise refuse the pay.

Dear Tim,
The carnal mind of man that we are born with HATES God. Until God acts to change that condition, WE WILL ALL REJECT CHRIST.

God is not like an employer and we are not employees. God has created us in a condition that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to accept Christ until this happens to each of us:

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Christ must first come to us and give us faith and that happens BEFORE we repent. Just as Paul was converted so is the rest of mankind. We all must wait on the Lord to appear to us (spiritually that is) and give us "gifts" BEFORE we will accept Him. Until that happens to each of us, we will reject Him. We have no choice in the matter because we are carnally minded and the carnal mind hates God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

"Enmity" is hatred.

Joe

I was thinking about this today, particularly th part about vessels being made for honor and dishonor. It seems on the surface that some of us are "predestined" for dishonor. In all actuality this shows that some will say, "because I was created with imperfect flesh and a nature to sin, it's not my fault, so I shouldn't be held accountable.". In fact we are accountable, and we're not to question God for the seemingly purposefull creation with propensity for sin. None of these verses say some are predestined for heaven while others are predestined for hell. Sorry if I'm not real clear, this is being typed on a phone.

Dear Whiteknuckle,
The fact of scripture is that ALL mankind is created to either be a vessel of dishonor or one of honor. God chooses, we do not. Also, ALL mankind is predestined for hell. However, the hell of scripture is not the hell the church teaches. Hell is simply the "grave". We all must die. The Lake of Fire is not hell. It is a place of judgment from which there is no escape. But all mankind must be judged before we can be saved (changed into a New Man in Christ). Judgment has a redeeming purpose. God will hold mankind "accountable" for our sins until we repent of them. We are "accountable" because we willingly do them. But God has held Christ responsible for our sins and that is why Christ came into the world to pay that debt - the debt we cannot pay. But His love for mankind is even greater than that - He is going to stop us from sinning too. And that is what is happening now. He is in the process of changing us all into a New Man in Christ. He is harvesting those He predestinated to be in His church (the "first fruits" of the harvest) in this age. All the remaining harvest of mankind will not be ready until the final age AFTER their judgment in the Lake of Fire. God is not willing that any should be lost. If He is not willing, then who is going to stop Him from accomplishing all that He said He will do? He said that he will have all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. His plan for doing this doesn't stop after we die. Death is not a problem for Christ. He holds the keys to death and hell (the grave or unseen place).

Here are three scriptures that say that those in the church are predestinated/chosen and have been so since before the foundation of the world. He chooses His church, after all, it is HIS church.

[font=Trebuchet MS"]John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.[/font]

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Being is the church is a blessing. That blessing comes from God and do not from our own ability to make the right choice. Salvation is a work of God that changes us from the carnally minded sinful creature that we are, into a sinless creature in Christ. Salvation is not about getting to go to heaven because you made the right choice. Salvation is becoming a child of God.

Joe

 

[Brother James]

"Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe." - 2 Chronicles 19:7

"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. Job 34:10

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. - Psalm 5:4

To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. - Psalm 92:15


So God is the author of evil? Something tells me there's a misunderstanding on the part of one of us. Evil is not righteousness.

 

[HammerStone]

I was thinking about this today, particularly th part about vessels being made for honor and dishonor. It seems on the surface that some of us are "predestined" for dishonor. In all actuality this shows that some will say, "because I was created with imperfect flesh and a nature to sin, it's not my fault, so I shouldn't be held accountable.". In fact we are accountable, and we're not to question God for the seemingly purposefull creation with propensity for sin. None of these verses say some are predestined for heaven while others are predestined for hell. Sorry if I'm not real clear, this is being typed on a phone.

I don't totally disagree with you, but let me pose this question for when you're maybe not on the phone.

If we go to the potter example of Romans 9:21-22, the Bible says that they come from the same lump. One is created for an honorable, and another for a dishonorable purpose. The potter knows that one vessel might be a bowl for carrying water or storing food, but then he also knows the other he creates will be used to hold urine at night. (I don't know that they had chamber pots in Biblical times, but I'm shooting for an understandable example.)

Following the analogy, the potter knows that each vessel has a special shape. He has purposed the vessel before he ever creates it, because it's shape is determined by its function. I don't want to move into the fatalistic view here, but I think the commentary is explicit in the verses following, because they ask the inevitable question - can the creation speak back to the creator and define their purpose? From the example, a pot cannot determine that it will be a water bowl as opposed to a chamber pot. Only the potter has that decision.

My question comes in that if God creates a pot for a good purpose (carrying water/food) and then one for carrying unclean things (urine) that will ultimately be discarded, does that necessarily make him the author of evil? (Notice how the ESV says God endures them.) If urine exists, is it the potter's fault that a vessel has to be created to hold it?

What I am getting at is this: If he created man from a common source (IE: they are alike in most aspects), but he created some that are good and some that are bad, does that make him the author of the bad, or do they stew in their own muck? Even with an Arminian perspective, God still created us, God created everything, so the culpability does not pass if you believe God authored evil.

Maybe God provided for free will, but maybe too God's wisdom is beyond the potter metaphor. Meaning, we cannot express an infinite God through a a verse or verses. So, we are left with an "imperfect" description in that the finite cannot fully understand the infinite. It's clearly saying God created us with a purpose in mind, some honorable, other dishonorable.

 

[Eltanin]

This is indeed a hard subject, and I have never met anyone who could sufficiently satisfy my every question about it, and it is one of those things that God has purposed I should remain unclear on...
I had an unhealthy fascination with this subject for awhile. I think a big part of why I was, was because I was worried about my loved ones who were not Christians.

Although I was given a vague idea that predestination is specifically implied to believers, and there God-given purpose, the only thing I have beyond that are theories, my own and other peoples'...

Maybe part of the reason I did not have a full revelation was because every time I concern myself with this subject, I am more focused on how it applies to other people. I know that I am following God's plans for me as hard as I can, and I am not worried about what comes after... But I start to feel scared for others when I seriously enter into this topic, and so I think I approach this topic in the wrong spirit.

When I approached the topic in the spirit of fear, I began trying to rationalize things that I shouldn't... Because I wasn't given the Revelation of the Spirit, it still remains a mystery to me... And that is okay...

...But something that WAS revealed to me was that, my approach to these Scriptures was based in judgment... A judgment that I am not qualified to pass... I had judged those who I was worried for , people I love, as going to hell... I had taken my eye off of being a witness, and started focusing on things that are really not the best use of my time... I stepped out of the Peace that God has given me, and into worry.

Sometimes I think we are faced with questions that can't be satisfyingly answered to us, so our faith can be tempered and tried...

 

[HammerStone]

I understand where you are coming from Eltanin!

I tend to say that both the Predestinarian (PD) side and the Free Will (FW) side are more like opposite sides of the same coin than in total opposition. What bothers me about the PD perspective, is that I've seen people argue on forums over what is safe to say to evangelize people! Totally misses the boat! On the FW side, I've seen folks get so rabid over free will, that they honestly seem to forget who died on the cross in the whole process.

Sometimes I think we are faced with questions that can't be satisfyingly answered to us, so our faith can be tempered and tried...

Hey, it's called faith for a reason, right?

I think it's okay for us to accept some ambivalence on the subject. If we could fully understand fit God in our minds, he wouldn't be God, would he?

 

[Eltanin]

Hey, it's called faith for a reason, right?

I think it's okay for us to accept some ambivalence on the subject. If we could fully understand fit God in our minds, he wouldn't be God, would he?

True True... LOL... and No, God wouldn't be much to seek after if I already knew all about Him... Ha!

... But yes, I was one of those that totally forgot about one part of the Word so as I could fit an explanation of predestination into a box of mine own understanding...

I have always been a big advocate of free will... and so my ideas of predestination are somewhat limited... And sure, I had to adjust some of my ideas about free will, when I realized that all that I had previously believed about it were a bit more self righteous than I like to admit...

You know? God is pretty awesome all over again when you learn He has provided a way for you to strengthen and reaffirm your faith through your mistakes once you have learned to own them. LOL

As it stands, I can't really tell you how free will and predestination equate, but I have drawn the same conclusion... They are 2 sides of the same coin... but I do know that whatever it is, it is meant to bring glory to God, and I will be happy with that... When we do learn, I think it will blow everyone's mind. :lol:

 

[justaname]

I believe the predestined elect are those predestined to be conformed into Christ's image. Romans 8:29

To be elect one must believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. One must proclaim Jesus Christ Lord with their mouth and believe in their heart that He is resurrected. If it is you do this, you are elect.

God knows all. Man does not, so man flounders and succeeds. Man is not a puppet on a string, yet whilst a slave to sin, he might as well be. Freedom is found in Christ but it is God who already knows who will come to Christ and who will not. Christ died for all. He has the power over sin and death, but not all will subject themselves to God. These are lovers of evil and this world, as to which there are many.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

"Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe." - 2 Chronicles 19:7

"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. Job 34:10

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. - Psalm 5:4

To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. - Psalm 92:15


So God is the author of evil? Something tells me there's a misunderstanding on the part of one of us. Evil is not righteousness.

Dear Brother James
I will say it again. God uses evil for good purposes. All the verses I quoted strongly support this fact. For God, evil would be to torment most of mankind in fire for all eternity for NO redeeming purpose. THAT WOULD BE TRULY EVIL. But God uses evil for our benefit; to teach us right from wrong, good from evil and to humble us by it. When each of us someday discover that we ourselves ARE evil in our present carnal state we have from birth, it is a truly humbling experience. Until Christ changes us, we are evil, self centered, carnal, sinning machines. We must be destroyed so that a New Man in Christ can be born within us. That process of change is what scripture is all about from start to finish. God is giving birth to His children and the birth process is a long and painful experience. But thank God that God is in control of it all and He will make sure that all goes well in the end for all of His creation. He will not miscarry even one person. All mankind will, in the end, become children of God. God loves us that much and He is that powerful. For Him to fail for even one person would be a sin and God cannot sin. The certainty of salvation is the GOOD NEWS that should be preached. When Christ reveals Himself to each person and they come to know Him for who He really is, our "man of sin" will be destroyed. As it was with Paul, so will it be for all mankind.
Joe

 

[Templar81]

Dear justaname
it soudns that I must be one fo the elect, though i know that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It is his perogative to do so.

JoeiArkansas
You are also right. god does use evil. The devil, though opposed to God is only able to work his wickedness if God so allows it.

 

[justaname]

Dear Brother James
I will say it again. God uses evil for good purposes. All the verses I quoted strongly support this fact. For God, evil would be to torment most of mankind in fire for all eternity for NO redeeming purpose. THAT WOULD BE TRULY EVIL. But God uses evil for our benefit; to teach us right from wrong, good from evil and to humble us by it. When each of us someday discover that we ourselves ARE evil in our present carnal state we have from birth, it is a truly humbling experience. Until Christ changes us, we are evil, self centered, carnal, sinning machines. We must be destroyed so that a New Man in Christ can be born within us. That process of change is what scripture is all about from start to finish. God is giving birth to His children and the birth process is a long and painful experience. But thank God that God is in control of it all and He will make sure that all goes well in the end for all of His creation. He will not miscarry even one person. All mankind will, in the end, become children of God. God loves us that much and He is that powerful. For Him to fail for even one person would be a sin and God cannot sin. The certainty of salvation is the GOOD NEWS that should be preached. When Christ reveals Himself to each person and they come to know Him for who He really is, our "man of sin" will be destroyed. As it was with Paul, so will it be for all mankind.
Joe

Joe,


Scripture is in direct conflict with this quote of yours.
"But thank God that God is in control of it all and He will make sure that all goes well in the end for all of His creation."

Romans 8:28

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Notice the author double emphasizes that few are selected. It is not OK if you do not enter the Lord's rest in this age, that is a myth. No where does scripture teach this.

Truly God is sovereign in this we totally agree. Because salvation from death is given to all does not mean all will be sons of God. This is a difficult thing I understand, but if your knee jerk reaction is to rebel against God and the revelation given through a plain reading of scripture and disdain God's warnings given of Hell that is a poor decision. In my opinion teaching such a heresy is an even worse decision. If it is that God chooses to save all in the manner you exclaim, amen. If He does not then your teachings go against Him and woe be to you.

In the Love of Christ,
Justaname

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Dear justaname
it soudns that I must be one fo the elect, though i know that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It is his perogative to do so.

JoeiArkansas
You are also right. god does use evil. The devil, though opposed to God is only able to work his wickedness if God so allows it.

Dear Templar81,
As you said, God does use evil but He doesn't merely "allow" it. God is responsible for it. God's 'will" is being done throughout His creation. Nothing happens apart from God's will. If there is evil in a city, God is responsilble for it. If a prophet is deceived, then God is responsible for it.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

The two below verses show us how God uses Satan:

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

But how did the Lord move David to number the people? Here is how:

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

The Lord sent Satan to move David to number the people. Satan NEVER does anything outside of God's will, and neither does mankind. God is in complete control over His creation.

And what about the harlot church? Here is proof that God has made the harlot church and at this time, He wants them to be so totally harlot that He has even sent the harlot church a "strong delusion" to believe a lie.

2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

What is that lie? It is the lie that Satan is the Christ. The harlot church is under the strong delusion that they are following Christ when in fact, they are following Satan. They are deceived by the strong delusion that God sent to them. It is all part of God's plan and doings. But from it all, God will give birth to His new children - ALL of mankind. Only God can use evil as a tool to produce good, mankind does not have that power. Scripture proclaims that this is so - we must believe it if we what to find the knowledge of God.

And since evil is being used by God, He tells His Elect to "not resist evil". The Elect understand that it comes from the Lord and is being used to work together with everything else in His creation to produce good. The Elect know not to fight against God's will. In fact, His will for His Elect is the love those will bring the evil and to do good to them. Someday, after God's propose for using evil is satisfied, those who brought the evil (that's all mankind at one point) will be changed into good - the good that is in Jesus Christ.

Joe

Joe,


Romans 8:28

Dear Justaname,
I completely agree. God is using "all things" (including evil) to work together for good.
Joe

 

[Templar81]

I lnow what you mean, Joe. Since God is in control of everything, then surely ll the misery and and evil in this world has to be God's will. iits not nie but I guess it's reality.

 

[justaname]

Joe,


John MacArthur
If God is sovereign, is He responsible for evil?

No. Scripture says that when God finished His creation, He saw everything and declared it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Many Scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil: "God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13). "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). "God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33)-and if that is true, He cannot in any way be the author of evil.
Occasionally someone will quote Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) and claim it proves God made evil as a part of His creation: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (emphasis added).
But the New American Standard Bible gives the sense of Isaiah 45:6-7 more clearly: "There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." In other words, God devises calamity as a judgment for the wicked. But in no sense is He the author of evil.
Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature.

It is helpful, I think, to understand that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply alack of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures.