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Featured Pre-Trib Rapture is Dead!!!

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Rollo Tamasi, Nov 10, 2018 at 7:35 AM.

  1. Rollo Tamasi

    Rollo Tamasi Well-Known Member

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    It's finally happened!
    Regardless of the TV prophets, people are leaving the belief of a pre-trib rapture by leaps and bounds.
    Entire denominations are shifting to a belief that the Day of the Lord, whenever that may be, is the rapture as well.
    Debates are sure to arise, especially from the pre-trib camp with their die-hard followers.
    But what is, is.

    A belief that came in with a fury has burnt out.
    Will this finally bring us all together?
     
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  2. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it'll bring us all together.
    We still have OSAS to deal with, and then....maybe.

    I went to a church that did not believe in the rapture, and I went to a church that did believe in the rapture.

    Now, I'm not claiming to know about eschatology, but I did do a little bit of studying and look what I came up with!

    Some theologians believe that this verse:
    Mathew 24:40
    40“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
    41“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.


    Is exactly the opposite of how we understand it in our time.

    Who will be taken and who will be left?
    The lucky one will be left
    The unfortunate one will be taken.

    Why? The taken one will be taken by some Roman soldiers to go to his death.
    It's referring to the tribulation that the early Christians experienced.
    The lucky one will be left to finish his day.

    This explains it better:

    source: "One will be taken, one will be left": Misinterpreted Bible Passages #8 | Jason Staples
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 9:19 AM
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  3. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    No. What this indicates (if true) is that the Great Apostasy is also perverting the truth regarding future events.

    The Pre-Tribulation Rapture cannot be *dead* as long as God and Christ are on their thrones. It is Christ Himself who taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture before His crucifixion. Christians simply have to believe what Jesus said, instead of listening to all the nonsense and propaganda emanating for all over.

    JOHN 14: 1-3 (KJB)
    Let not your heart be troubled...
    [A word of comfort to Christians being troubled from every side, and a reminder that the Tribulation is for the unbelievers and the ungodly]

    ...ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    [Why? Because I am also God, who knows the end from the beginning]

    In my Father's house...

    [God the Father's house is Heaven -- the third heaven]

    ...are many mansions:

    [Every child of God will have a mansion in the New Jerusalem, the eternal home of the saints of God]

    ...if it were not so, I would have told you.

    [Jesus is the Truth. Believe Him, not all the liars which surround us]

    I go to prepare a place for you.

    [The proper place for Christians in eternity is with Christ]

    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again

    [Christ has guaranteed the Rapture of the saints personally]

    ...and receive you unto myself

    [Christ will PERSONALLY come to receive His Bride]

    that where I am, there ye may be also

    [The Bride of Christ will become the Lamb's Wife]

    I will review the actual Scriptures about the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints in a separate post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 4:20 PM
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  4. Rollo Tamasi

    Rollo Tamasi Well-Known Member

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    That proves nothing concerning a pre-trib rapture
    What are you afraid of?
    A sore that won't go away.
    I go through more suffering than that everyday.
    People are being murdered around the world just because they are Christians.
    What happened to their rapture?
    The Christians thrown into the arena with the lions.
    I guess that's not enough suffering...
     
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  5. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    The church is sick. The pretrib rapture and theological liberalism are symptoms of that sickness that has made the church culturally irrelevant in just the last few decades. You are correct that the pretrib rapture lie is being abandoned. But, that's not necessarily for a good reason. It's like a man dying of AIDS may test HIV-negative in his final stages, because his immune system is gone (HIV=pretrib). It's not a good reason if people are leaving the pretrib lie for agnosticism or liberalism. It's a good reason to leave pretrib if they become Bible-believers rather than pseudo-Christian cultists in our pews.

    The Day of the Lord isn't one specific future day, but ongoing judgement of the nations.

    The two key alleged rapture passages in the Bible are about the resurrection. The other alleged rapture verses have nothing to do with a rapture or resurrection, but are shameless abuse of scripture.
     
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  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    It is not a question of what am I afraid of. It is a question of what is true and what is false. Ask yourself a few questions and obtain the answers from Scripture:

    1. Do I know the purpose of the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation?

    2. Does it pertain to the children of God or the children of the devil?

    3. Are the trials and tribulations of the saints different and separate from the JUDGMENTS and WRATH of God?

    4. What is the relation of the severe judgments described from Revelation 6-19 to the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation?

    5. Will the children of God be subjected to the WRATH of God when Christ bore God's wrath on their behalf at the Cross?

    6. Is the Church before the Rapture the same as the Tribulation saints, who are all beheaded by the Antichrist?
     
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  7. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    I looked, and the only study I could find on this was one from 2016, where it showed those who believed in a literal Pre-tribulation rapture were still the single largest group by far. Are you quoting the Rollo Tamasi Times, or what? :)

    Btw, I'm not a Pre-Tribulationist. I'm Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath. But I'm curious where you are getting your information from.

    "One-third of American Protestant pastors believe that Christians will be raptured as the end times begin, according to a new study from LifeWay Research. Christianity Today reports that the survey of 1,000 pastors found that few people agree about the specifics of the apocalypse.

    LifeWay vice president Scott McConnell said, “Most people want their pastor to preach about the Book of Revelation and the end of the world. But that’s a complicated task. Pastors and the scholars they cite often disagree about how the end times will unfold.”

    According to the survey, 36 percent of Protestant senior pastors believe in pretribulation rapture, or Christians being taken up to heaven to meet Jesus. This is the picture of the apocalypse most depicted in pop culture, such as the “Left Behind” series.

    However, another large group of pastors (25 percent) argue that the rapture is not a literal concept. Other smaller groups believe that the rapture will occur after tribulation (18 percent), the rapture has already happened (1 percent), that the rapture will take place during the tribulation (4 percent), before the wrath of God comes down on earth (4 percent), or none of these possibilities (8 percent)."
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what that passage reveals.
     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    1 Thessalonians 4.16-18 seems to be the clearest scripture of what will happen when Jesus returns.

    He will return one time at the end,,,not two times.

    16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
    18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
     
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  10. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    No.

    It's the exact opposite of what YOU believe.
    I even posted a link...I can't explain it better than that.

    The unfortunate one will be "raptured"...taken away (to his death).
    The lucky one will be left to finish his work in the field.

    The unfortunate one was taken away by a soldier to be executed.
    Try reading it again...Even if you don't agree; at least you'll know what many theologians believe as being accurate.
     
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  11. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    The dominant refutation of it for me is His statement that "where the body is, there will the eagles gather." (Luke 17:37). I came to realize He was using an earthly analogy to equate eagles with the angels of God, and "the body" with the body of Christ that will be gathered unto Him before His wrath begins. The entire set of analogies in Luke 17:26-36 is about God delivering His people out before destruction came, thus it would be unnatural to have this expression mean anything else in context.
     
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  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    I believe most people get the rapture mixed up with the "FIRST" resurrection.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    now if the rapture takes place "BEFORE" the Lord returnes in a physical body, that's three coming. because at the resurrection the dead in Christ, who rise first, and if he takes everyone that's his as many say back to heaven, then two questions remain.

    #1. who is he reigning with him in the Holy City? scripture,
    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    ok, if "SAINTS" are in the city, how are they in Heaven if with the Lord?

    #2. if the Lord come and raptures the church as many say. then he come and raise the dead and change the living, (which is the FIRST RESURRECTION), that's two coming already, (which the bible don't support). and then go back to heaven and return to fight the battle of armageddon at the second resurrection, that's three coming.

    so something has to give.
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Do you see how absurd this belief is, and how it clearly shows that most denominations have no clue about the Day of the Lord?

    What is "the Day of the LORD"? When one goes through all the Scriptures about this FUTURE PERIOD of time (since it is not simply one 24-hour day), it become crystal clear that this the a period of GOD'S WRATH.

    And we are now expected to believe that while God's wrath is being poured out on the earth, the Church -- the Bride of Christ -- is experiencing God's wrath? That is so absurd, it is not even worthy of further comment.

    Let's just look at the prophecy of Joel to see the Day of the LORD, and then compare it with the judgments of the sixth seal and the cataclysmic cosmic events after the Great Tribulation as revealed by Christ in the Olivet Discourse:

    JOEL 2: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
    1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
    2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations...
    10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
    11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    REVELATION 6: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    THE OLIVET DISCOURSE
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
    (Mt 24:29)

    But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. (Mk 13:24,25)

    And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Lk 21:25,26)

    Now Christians can simply ask themselves if all these judgments and wrath are reserved for them or for the unbelievers and the ungodly. But God has already given us the answer:

    For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. (1 Thess 5:9-11).

    Can everyone see how ludicrous it is to promote the idea that the Day of the LORD is for the Church? The Resurrection/Rapture takes place long before this period of wrath.
     
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Unless you understand two things clearly, you will not have a proper view of the Rapture.

    1. The "first resurrection" (which is the resurrection of the saints or the righteous) takes place in THREE PHASES (analogous to the Hebrew harvest).
    2. The Rapture cannot be isolated from the resurrection of all the NT saints.

    THE FIRST RESURRECTION IS IN THREE PHASES (1 Cor 15:20-24)

    A. THE FIRST FRUITS: CHRIST
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.[THIS WAS AT THE FEAST OF FIRST FRUITS]

    B. THE MAIN HARVEST: THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [THIS IS THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE]

    C. THE GLEANINGS: THE TRIBULATION SAINTS
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [THIS IS BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM]
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

    Now, is the Resurrection/Rapture (the main harvest) all at the same time? Absolutely.

    ...and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [RESURRECTION] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds [RAPTURE]...(1 Thess 4:16,17, but see the entire passage from v 13- v 18).
    [NOTE: The word "rapture" is derived from the Latin "rapimur", which is the translation for the Greek harpagesometha = "caught up together" ]

    ...for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, [RESURRECTION] and we shall be changed [RAPTURE]... (1 Cor 15:52)
     
  15. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Anyone taught that those taken Luke 17 are raptured have been lied to. Anyone who reads the context and still thinks those taken are raptured either are incompetent or don't care about the truth, anything else is beyond credibility.

    [Just as in the days of Noah] the flood came and destroyed [took] them all... There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.”

    Other than the context leaving no confusion, that those taken are destroyed, nothing in this passage even remotely suggests that this happens before the tribulation. The pretrib rapture is a complete lie, and a lie that leads to all sorts of evil.
     
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  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You are the *unfortunate one* if you think the Rapture means "taken to his death". Why are you listening to the false teachers?
     
  17. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I see that you are back in circulation and making the same WILD AND BASELESS ACCUSATIONS.

    It is perfectly clear that you really don't understand the significance of the Pretribulation Rapture.
     
  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    I would like to ask a question, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (Lk 21:25,26)
    here is my point, if the Lord rapture the church, he must return to raise the dead saints who sleep.

    are you with me so far.

    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    now according to you, this takes place after your rapture, is this correct
     
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  19. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Blessings to you, Vexatious.

    About your translation, you are inserting the word "took" in v.27 when it isn't present in the Greek. It states "and the flood came and destroyed them" (καὶ ἦλθεν ὁ κατακλυσμὸς καὶ ἀπώλεσεν πάντας ). The word "took" does not appear until v.34-37, when He is using the analogy of the eagles.

    Deliverance by the hand of God of the righteous, however, is inferred by the stories of Noah and Lot.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 12:48 PM
  20. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Kindly see my post #14 which explains everything very clearly. The Resurrection/Rapture is a SINGLE event.
    "The rest of the dead" are the unsaved dead. See Rev 20:10-15.
    This refers to the Tribulation Saints, the third phase of the "first resurrection". See my post #14.
    It is not my Rapture, but Christ's Rapture. So if you are a Christian, it should also be your Rapture.
     
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