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Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by cga, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. cga

    cga New Member

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    All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

    I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [NIV])
    The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 [ESV])
    For he wounds, but he also bandages; he strikes, but his hands also heal. (Job 5:18 [NETBIBLE])
    “‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39 [ESV])

    For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

    We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

    Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

    Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

    Even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,

    that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45 [NIV])

    And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,

    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13 [NIV])

    And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,

    Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 [NIV])

    As such, it is in God that all live, exist, and even move,

    for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ (Acts 17:28 [ESV])

    Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,

    So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])
    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])
    The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 [ESV])
    He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40 [ESV])

    Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,

    Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

    Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

    The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

    As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

    What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

    And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth powerful plagues against Egypt,

    "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3 [NASB])
    For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17 [NIV])

    In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,

    Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. (Isaiah 13:13 [NIV])
    Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:4-5 [NIV])

    Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,

    Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])

    And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,

    For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])
    And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])
    For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])
    So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

    And also demonstrate his love,

    But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8 [NIV])

    Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

    His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:2-3 [NIV])

    And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,

    Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])
    Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of
    the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])
    But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

    And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,

    even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

    And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])
    For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

    And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,

    So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

    And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

    Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 [BSB])

    This is also why the kingdom given to the chosen, or even the lake of fire where the wicked are thrown into, are all prepared by God, because what God has brought forth into existence is also staged and prepared for future times he has appointed,

    And because God determines everything to be is why God has also staged and prepared what will come to be,

    "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (Matthew 25:34 [NIV])
    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41 [NIV])
    but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant.These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." (Mark 10:40 [NIV])
     
  2. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    I'm glad to see at least someone believes in the sovereignty of God these days.

    How do you answer the argument by those who believe God unjust for condemning people when he is the one whom predestined them for destruction?
     
    Born_Again likes this.
  3. cga

    cga New Member

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    This scripture is the answer,

    One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:19 [NIV])

    And so, because God is indeed just, and because he wants to demonstrate his great power, he has also appointed the swift destruction of those whom he appointed to be wicked,

    What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

    So, there is no injustice with God for what he has appointed to be by his own authority as God, for the end result of what he has appointed to be will be just.
     
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  4. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

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    So what effect does that have on me?

    God is the force of nature and he certainly knows what he is going to do and he can predict what I am going to do because I have free will as opposed to random will.

    If I rolled a six-sided dice then God chose to have it come up six then he would do it for his reasons and those reasons are just and righteous.

    How does me knowing he did it or not make any real difference?
     
  5. Born_Again

    Born_Again Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Kerwin,

    The OP's intent was for everyone to read and for those who may not understand. Believers are not the only ones on this site. We have a few atheist members that might read this. This post is for the benefit of all.

    BA
     
  6. cga

    cga New Member

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    Because having this wisdom are the riches of the kingdom of God,

    Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! (Romans 11:33 [NIV])

    Knowing all this gives understanding in how great and powerful God is. So it is to your advantage to come to understanding in all this, so that you do not lack in knowledge,

    my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children. (Hosea 4:6 [NIV])

    So do not reject knowledge, but rather, receive it and understand it.
     
  7. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    To answer the question of the op... No, God does not predetermine everything that happens otherwise that means he predetermined that people will sin, and predetermined that Adam and Eve would sin, even though it clearly shows he didn't want them to sin.
    God gave man free will and as such even though he may know what we will decide to do, he does not interfere in our Free Will and cause us to choose something we don't really want. what God wants is for us to surrender our free will to him and willfully do what he wants us to do.
     
    Dan57 likes this.
  8. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Do you have Scripture to support this, specifically that He does not interfere in our free-will?
     
  9. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

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    Thank you for your answer!
     
  10. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

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    God can predetermine that sin will occur without actually causing it to since he knows the heart of humanity and the free choice to sin comes from that heart.

    He does not cause a human to sin nor does he test anyone with the Spirit beyond their means to resist.

    He did harden the hearts of both Adam and Eve in that he allowed them to be tested in ways that even though they could choose to obey but instead they would choose to sin.

    I believe you are confusing free will with random will as in the later the person could choose either obedience or disobedience is exactly the same situation while in the earlier that same person would always make the same choice as that choice come from their own heart.
     
  11. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    You can always start with Luke 17:33... there are many more.
     
  12. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Can you give some exegesis here. I do not see how this supports your contention.
     
  13. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Really? You do not see how free will is a component of this verse of scripture? Come on justaname, you should know better than to play games with me.
     
  14. kerwin

    kerwin New Member

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    Please give an example of what you mean when you say "interfere". Thank you!
     
  15. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Actually this is Stan's language used. I was questioning it myself. But as you can see above I am not gettting very far as he does not want to support what he says...
     
  16. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    I do not see how this supports your, "God will not interfere with our free-will".

    He seemed to interfere with Jonah's free-will via a great fish...

    I do not deny man makes decisions based on his greatest desire. Yet God can and does interfere at times with those decisions, thereby changing man's desires. He did harden Pharoah's heart. He did strike Paul with blindness when Paul was content to persecute Christians.

    God is the Sovereign, and we are mere creatures subject to Him. Our so called free-will has no dominion over Him.
     
  17. n2thelight

    n2thelight Member

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    God didn't create satan evil,it was his choice....
     
  18. n2thelight

    n2thelight Member

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    I don't feel God know's who will choose Him,else what's the point...

    All have free will,except for the elect,ie,those who were chosen before the foundation of the world...

    Again it's very important to understand the three heaven and earth ages
     
  19. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    As God functioned differently under the Old Covenant than he does under the New Covenant should not come as a surprise to anybody who understands the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
    Prophets were altogether a different class of believers under the old Covenant and as such would be disciplined by God when they refused to do what they were instructed to do. Let's try to stick with comparing Apples to Apples shall we. The op is not about being a prophet, the op is about predestination. Those who believe and accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior do so of their own volition and are not forced to accept him as their savior. Subsequent to that our free will still comes into play given we are required to either obey or not to obey what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. The goal of any Christian is to supplant our will for that of God's will, but no matter how you look at it, it is still our will that decides whether or not we listen to God and obey his will. The law of reaping and sowing has always been one of the basic laws of God's creation and that has not been superseded under the New Covenant. Nevertheless that does not mean we are ever forced to do what we do not will to do.
     
  20. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    This is a misconception of scripture that is unfortunately common among some. I'm not sure what scripture reference you're referring to here, as there are a few, but scripture overall does not say what you have stated here. Please give the scriptural references you are referring to and we can discuss it.
     
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