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Proofs of god's existence

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Jennifer Rogers, May 16, 2022.

  1. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    All arguments for God's existence derive from assumptions, and assumptions are shaped by life experience. Ultimately, then, arguments for God's existence are only as reliable as the experiences and the accurate, arbitrary, and false perceptions that inform them. The concept of "proof" is rooted in formal logic, which is based on conclusions that are validly deduced from premises, which are themselves unprovable. So at the outset, we need to drop the word "proof" in favor of the psychological terms like "persuasive.," convincing," and "self-authenticating experiences."

    As for me, I would not be a Christian today, if I had to rely just on apologetic arguments for creation, the resurrection, etc. Rather, I am a Christian because of a series of self-authenticating spiritual and paranormal experiences at pivotal moments in my life that seem decisively incompatible with a non-theistic universe. If requested, I can start a new thread sharing all these experiences.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  2. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 1. ..God said..>"look around at the Creation"...... : Final answer.

    And as the OP's cut and paste stated, you can't have Creation without a Creator.

    A book can't write itself
    A painting can't paint itself
    The world, the universe, and time.........all of these didnt just start themselves from NOTHING, by themselves.

    CREATION has to have a CREATOR.

    Just ask God....
     
  3. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    Behold: "The world, the universe, and time.........all of these didnt just start themselves from NOTHING, by themselves."

    The question of the origin of the Big Bang does not lead to "proof" of God's existence. You wrongly assume that modern cosmology teaches that everything emerges from nothing. You ignore the possibility of multiverses or parallel universes that eternally recycle themselves as their energy dissipates. Why is there something rather than nothing? The skeptic retorts, why is there a loving omni-, omni- God rather than nothing at all? Scientists pursue knowledge based on testable theories and view the Christian loving God as an untestable figment of the human imagination and its need to support wishful thinking. Now none of this reflects my own view as an evangelical. But your argument commits the fallacy of begging the question by presuming the revelatory evidence of Scripture, a belief based on a host of unprovable assumptions.
     
  4. devin553344

    devin553344 Well-Known Member

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    The proof I have of God is that he manifested himself to me in several ways. Mostly thru the Holy Spirit.
     
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  5. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Ouch! Do you kiss your lord with that mouth?
     
  6. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Possibility is proof?

    There is no evidence for multi-verse; it is a statement of speculating a beginning beyond what evidence supports, Creation. Calling it by another name (Big Bang) changes nothing.

    It is proof using the civil standard of more likely than not. You not only reject the possibility of God, you reject the evidence of his work.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
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  7. Berserk

    Berserk Well-Known Member

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    Wrangler, relativity theory and string theory imply the possibility of extra dimensions and parallel universes. So as Christians, we bear the burden of proof for God, not the skeptic. So it's best to avoid the word "proof" in favor of which view makes best sense of all the relevant data.
     
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  8. Jennifer Rogers

    Jennifer Rogers Active Member

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    Thank you for your answer. I will keep this in mind.
     
  9. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @Jennifer Rogers Good verse (not sure if I've mentioned it to you...) "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11.6)
     
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  10. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Soldier of Jehovah and Christ

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    You need proof? I don't, I simply know.
     
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  11. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    True. I think its not about proof its about faith...
    If it was so easy to prove than everyone would believe it and faith would not be required
     
  12. RedFan

    RedFan Active Member

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    If any "proof" of the existence of God were logically airtight, there would be a lot more theists and a lot fewer atheists around. I doubt any philosophical argument will ever supplant faith as the basis for belief in God's existence.
     
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  13. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Proof does not mean a standard beyond ALL doubt.

    Even criminal trials are often decided based on circumstantial evidence. And Civil trials are won, ‘proven’, based on the preponderance of evidence TO BE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT.

    No sir, I will not abdicate language, words to the enemies twisting of them.

    I admit that theoretical calculations imply other possibilities but that is not evidence, not proof. Just because God could have created the universe differently does not undermine the evidence of his work.

    It’s like denying the burglar came through the front window where there is broken glass when he could have come through the back door, which happened to be unlocked.

    Kevin Costner famously said in JFK that quantum mechanics say an elephant can hang from a daisy over a cliff but if you use a little common sense it is MORE LIKELY THAN NOT another conclusion, even if atheists don’t like it.

    Atheists want proof, then deny the proof, the evidence in support of thr conclusion they do not prefer. That is their problem, not mine.

    There are vast proofs of God, evidence more likely than not, and I will not retreat from this position - so help me God. Amen.
     
  14. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    @Qoheleth, @Behold, @JohnPaul, @Wrangler @devin553344, @RedFan @Jim B, @marks, @MatthewG @Enoch111
    Can anybody help me understand what a urinal has to do with Jesus Christ and what depositing a Saint's bones in urine is all about, please?
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  15. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Soldier of Jehovah and Christ

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    Yet people will believe in aliens from outer space.
     
  16. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    And it’s not the “Bible alone”!

    Unity of faith!


    “Bible alone” is the cos of division;

    Not the Bible or the Bible and the teaching authority of Christ in His church founded on Peter and his successors! Matt 16:18-19

    Who is the arbiter of truth!

    You can decide.
    You can decide what is true.
    You can decide what is truth.
    You can decide right and wrong.

    Not one of these are found in scripture!

    Found in scripture!
    Taught is found 79 times
    Instructed is found 19
    Instruction is found 33


    Jn 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

    Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

    Colossians 2:7
    Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

    Matt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

    1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
     
  17. Behold

    Behold Well-Known Member

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    The Big Bang is not the Beginning.

    Let me explain....The BB is the middle, or well after creation.
    Science tries to pretend that the Big Bang was the "start'.
    Let em show you why it can't be...
    Very simple..
    To have a "bang", such as the Big Bang, you have to the STUFF in EXISTENCE, to have that happen.
    So, Science does not want to talk about the STUFF that pre-existed BEFORE it "BANGED"..

    The "Stuff", was there before the BB, and God created it.
    How do you know?
    Because matter can't create itself out of blank nothingness.....It has to have a CREATION, to exit, and that is God The Creator creating it.
     
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