Prophecy vs. Apocalyptic

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Trekson

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The purpose of this study is to determine if the Book of Revelation should be considered prophecy or apocalyptic literature. Although apocalyptical is a type of prophecy, not all prophecy is apocalyptical (Apl). What’s the difference you may ask? Here’s what I have learned. While the word “revelation” is derived from the same root word as “apocalypse” it should not be automatically assumed they have the same meaning.


A prophecy is literal, specific and gives details.

Apl is general and uses vague symbolism to get its point across.

A prophecy is usually given by a named prophet or representative of God.

Apl authors generally use psuedonyms to give themselves more authenticity.

A prophecy has a specific audience.

Apl is written to a general, non-specific audience.

Generally, a prophecy is a call for sinners to repent.

Generally, an Apl message gives saints hope.

A prophecy is direct communication from God or an assigned messenger.

Apl is usually derived from visions and/or dreams.

In the NT, prophecy is for a church based audience.

Generally, Apl is strictly for a Jewish based audience. Although, Revelation does have specifics of what will happen to some Israelites and Jerusalem as part of the collective whole, being directed to the seven churches puts it in the church-based audience category.

The book of Daniel can be considered apocalyptical because of how Daniel received his prophecy. In Daniel, the words vision (s) are used 31 times. The words dream (s) (ed) are used 29 times.

Comparatively the book of Revelation has 0 mention of anything associated w/ the word “dream” and the word “vision” is only used once (Rev. 9:17).

Consider this, (from sharperiron.org) If Revelation is in the apocalyptic category, then we shouldn’t expect it to be understood literally at all. The apocalyptic category would support the preterist interpretation, the historicist interpretation, the idealist interpretation (a non-literal view that the book doesn’t predict actual events at all, but rather symbolizes the epic struggle between good and evil), and the eclectic interpretation (a hybrid approach, popularized by George Ladd, this view combines the preterist and futurist interpretation).


On the other hand, the futurist model (a literal interpretation in which the events described in the book, beyond chapters 1-5, are still yet in the future) is supported by the simple category classification of the book as prophecy. The futuristic interpretive model is the only one of the five models that stems from the literal grammatical-historical hermeneutic, and is initially derived from the simple past-present-future commission of John in Revelation 1:19: “Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.


The book of Revelation defines itself as prophecy in Rev. 1:3, 22:7, 10 and 18-19. By the use of the phrase “Come up hither” in Rev. 4:1 it removes Revelation from the dream/vision category and puts it more of an out-of-body, and in the spirit category (Rev. 1:10) where he is actually being shown future events and describing them as best as he can. This reality should remove it from being considered apocalyptic. It has a specific audience (the seven churches), the author is Jesus Christ and John is only recording what he is told and shown by Christ or his authorized messengers. The message is basically for sinners, showing them what they will face if they do not repent, with the revealing of a more pleasant future for the church and parts of Israel at the end of the prophecy.


I’ll admit that if you research this on the internet you will find way more sites putting Revelation in the apocalyptical, than as prophecy. However, just because an idea is popular with the majority doesn’t mean it’s the correct viewpoint. After all, reading Revelation as apocalyptical is in my opinion, another form of escapism similar to the pretrib viewpoint. Why?, because the apocalyptical interpretation means that none of the horrible stuff in Revelation is true and are just symbols used to deliver a warning. For some people, the reality is just too horrible for them even to consider the possibility of it being real, but then the folks in Noah’s day thought so too.
 

Keraz

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I’ll admit that if you research this on the internet you will find way more sites putting Revelation in the apocalyptical, than as prophecy. However, just because an idea is popular with the majority doesn’t mean it’s the correct viewpoint. After all, reading Revelation as apocalyptical is in my opinion, another form of escapism similar to the pretrib viewpoint. Why?, because the apocalyptical interpretation means that none of the horrible stuff in Revelation is true and are just symbols used to deliver a warning. For some people, the reality is just too horrible for them even to consider the possibility of it being real, but then the folks in Noah’s day thought so too.
Quite right; people basically refuse to countenance the idea of something dramatic happening during their lifetime on earth.
As with most Bible prophecy, the graphic descriptions of events yet to happen, are simply too much for them to believe that they could and will take place.
Jesus gave us due warning; He said: It will be the same as in the days of Noah, when I will bring My Judgement upon the nations.
Wait for the Day!
Zephaniah 3:8
 
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Davy

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....

I’ll admit that if you research this on the internet you will find way more sites putting Revelation in the apocalyptical, than as prophecy. However, just because an idea is popular with the majority doesn’t mean it’s the correct viewpoint. After all, reading Revelation as apocalyptical is in my opinion, another form of escapism similar to the pretrib viewpoint. Why?, because the apocalyptical interpretation means that none of the horrible stuff in Revelation is true and are just symbols used to deliver a warning. For some people, the reality is just too horrible for them even to consider the possibility of it being real, but then the folks in Noah’s day thought so too.

Sounds simply like another dreamed up excuse to not heed the signs of the end that our Lord Jesus gave us to be watching. Wherever you found that info, I'd recommend you dump that link immediately.
 

Trekson

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Sounds simply like another dreamed up excuse to not heed the signs of the end that our Lord Jesus gave us to be watching. Wherever you found that info, I'd recommend you dump that link immediately.

Apparently, you didn't read the whole post.
 
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Davy

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Apparently, you didn't read the whole post.

I read it, and it's just seminary-style mumbo-jumbo. What about Joseph's dreams in Genesis 37? Was that apocalyptic? No, it came true. Nebuchadnezzar's dream which God gave Daniel to interpret, was that apocalyptic or prophetic? Actually both. Thus the theory you present falls flat and is useless as a study tool.

Same thing with the Book of Revelation. Some academics refuse to assign it being penned by Apostle John at all, because they feel the amount of symbolism in it departs from the style of the rest of the NT writings that it couldn't have been written by one of the Apostles. In reality, those don't understand enough of their OT to realize that Revelation is in similar form as the OT books of the prophets, the timelines flowing back and forth very quickly, and that it is more closely related to the Book of Genesis than the other NT books.
 

Trekson

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FYI, the post was explaining why I believe Revelation is prophetic NOT Apocalyptic.
 

Enoch111

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I’ll admit that if you research this on the internet you will find way more sites putting Revelation in the apocalyptical, than as prophecy. However, just because an idea is popular with the majority doesn’t mean it’s the correct viewpoint.
That's right. The majority of churches and denominations (Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) have a very poor interpretation of Bible prophecy. But the apostle John settles the issue by calling the book of Revelation "the book of this prophecy".

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Rev 22:18,19)
 

Davy

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FYI, the post was explaining why I believe Revelation is prophetic NOT Apocalyptic.

Well, you could add Isaiah's Apocalypse to that, which of course would be another failure of that tool you were proposing.
 

Trekson

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Well, you could add Isaiah's Apocalypse to that, which of course would be another failure of that tool you were proposing.

What the heck are you talking about??? If you're speaking about what I said about Daniel than just because a vision is in an apocalyptic style does NOT mean it can't also be literal truth. You have to compare scripture w/ scripture and Daniel passes the test of prophecy.
 

Davy

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What the heck are you talking about??? If you're speaking about what I said about Daniel than just because a vision is in an apocalyptic style does NOT mean it can't also be literal truth. You have to compare scripture w/ scripture and Daniel passes the test of prophecy.

Revelation is both... Apocalyptic AND... prophetic. Same with the 'Apocalypse of Isaiah'.
 
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Naomi25

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The purpose of this study is to determine if the Book of Revelation should be considered prophecy or apocalyptic literature. Although apocalyptical is a type of prophecy, not all prophecy is apocalyptical (Apl). What’s the difference you may ask? Here’s what I have learned. While the word “revelation” is derived from the same root word as “apocalypse” it should not be automatically assumed they have the same meaning.


A prophecy is literal, specific and gives details.

Apl is general and uses vague symbolism to get its point across.

A prophecy is usually given by a named prophet or representative of God.

Apl authors generally use psuedonyms to give themselves more authenticity.

A prophecy has a specific audience.

Apl is written to a general, non-specific audience.

Generally, a prophecy is a call for sinners to repent.

Generally, an Apl message gives saints hope.

A prophecy is direct communication from God or an assigned messenger.

Apl is usually derived from visions and/or dreams.

In the NT, prophecy is for a church based audience.

Generally, Apl is strictly for a Jewish based audience. Although, Revelation does have specifics of what will happen to some Israelites and Jerusalem as part of the collective whole, being directed to the seven churches puts it in the church-based audience category.
hi Trekson...finally found some time! Because this topic is potentially going to lead to some very in-depth theological discussions, I think, for this first post, I'm just going to address your post and how I see what you've written.

The problem I see with going through 'generalities' as you have above, is that they are not hard and fast rules of what a style must have or be. Thus, as you have pointed out, some characteritics of apolcoliptic fit Revelation to a tee, while others not so much. In other words...using this manner of 'identification' is not viable. It may give us clues, point us in certain directions, but that's it.
Also...the problem I find with trying to divide apocolyptic from prophecy is that sometimes that is not such a clear line. Prophecy itself was not always an oracle about the future...'foretelling'....it was also 'forthtelling'....God informing his people of sure things to come. And we can see in Revelation that there are plenty of those 'forthtellings' within. And, to a certain point, there are also 'foretellings'....perhaps not in the minute detail people think of when they think "prophecy", but there is definite certainity for the future in there, given to reassure the people of God.
So...in a very real way, Revelation fits the profile of apocolyptic, prophecy, and, I suppose epistle given the letters at the front.

The book of Daniel can be considered apocalyptical because of how Daniel received his prophecy. In Daniel, the words vision (s) are used 31 times. The words dream (s) (ed) are used 29 times.

Comparatively the book of Revelation has 0 mention of anything associated w/ the word “dream” and the word “vision” is only used once (Rev. 9:17).
I think getting hung up on the appearance of two words to the detriment of the actual content is a failing. Perhaps Revelation does not say 'dream' or 'vision', but from the first Chapter, we are made abundently aware that John is 'shown' what he is to write down. If you went through Revelation and catalogued the words "I saw", how many of those would you find, do you think? Or perhaps, "show"...?
Also, the correlation between Daniel and Revelation is undeniable...the use of "beast" language to describe kingdoms/nations or rulers that oppose God. That symbols are used to describe realities in both books are unescapable.


On the other hand, the futurist model (a literal interpretation in which the events described in the book, beyond chapters 1-5, are still yet in the future) is supported by the simple category classification of the book as prophecy. The futuristic interpretive model is the only one of the five models that stems from the literal grammatical-historical hermeneutic, and is initially derived from the simple past-present-future commission of John in Revelation 1:19: “Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
I think there is a bit of hermeneutical assumption that says that Rev 1:19 is speaking of "past-present-future" events. Because when one reads what it says...while that interpretation could be pressed into it, it seems a far more naturally reading to see: "John, write down what you've just seen, what you will see, and what you'll see next".
Either way...both are viable readings...and I think that means placing a 'timeframe' upon the text and therefore building a doctrine around it, or changing how you read the book itself because of it, should warrent some hesitancy.

The book of Revelation defines itself as prophecy in Rev. 1:3, 22:7, 10 and 18-19. By the use of the phrase “Come up hither” in Rev. 4:1 it removes Revelation from the dream/vision category and puts it more of an out-of-body, and in the spirit category (Rev. 1:10) where he is actually being shown future events and describing them as best as he can. This reality should remove it from being considered apocalyptic. It has a specific audience (the seven churches), the author is Jesus Christ and John is only recording what he is told and shown by Christ or his authorized messengers. The message is basically for sinners, showing them what they will face if they do not repent, with the revealing of a more pleasant future for the church and parts of Israel at the end of the prophecy.
Apocolyptic is still a form of prophetic literature...they just differ in style and often in purpose. Prophecy was usually for corporate Israel, either for punishment or rescue. Apocolyptic is usually focused on the whole people of God and the grand consumation of their hope in him, when evil is destroyed and the kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of God.

I'm unsure why you think having a 'spiritual' vision/encounter of heaven should put Revelation out of the category of 'dreams/vision'. We are told that John will be 'shown'...that he 'bore witness' to all that he 'saw'. Then we are told he was 'in the Spirit' and he 'came up here'. And then, repeatedly, we see "and I saw", throughout the book. Sounds like visions to me.

I’ll admit that if you research this on the internet you will find way more sites putting Revelation in the apocalyptical, than as prophecy. However, just because an idea is popular with the majority doesn’t mean it’s the correct viewpoint. After all, reading Revelation as apocalyptical is in my opinion, another form of escapism similar to the pretrib viewpoint. Why?, because the apocalyptical interpretation means that none of the horrible stuff in Revelation is true and are just symbols used to deliver a warning. For some people, the reality is just too horrible for them even to consider the possibility of it being real, but then the folks in Noah’s day thought so too.

I agree...just because something is on the internet, does not make it true. However, it does not make it untrue either.
The problem I see with your idea that "symbols" are just a way to basically escape all the 'horrible stuff' in Revelation, is that, once again, the use of symbols has been misunderstood.
Let me go back to Daniel for a moment, since pretty much everyone openly accepts the apocolyptic nature of his 'prophecies'. When Daniel gave us the prophecies of the strange beasts...or the statue, both of them with 'different parts'...like a frankenstein...does anyone think that that's literally what Daniel saw...or what will, at some point show up on the scene? No, of course not! They recongnize that these things were symbols for nations that were coming after Nebuchadnezzar. But...were they just 'symbolic' nations...ideas that the world would keep turning after the great king fell...life goes on...that sort of thing? No...they represented real nations and real events that would play out on the stage of history.
Back to Revelation. Those of us who say that the book is full of 'symbols' don't do so as a way of waving away the meaning of the book, not at all! We say that a great big chunk of the book is attempting to explain things that are almost beyond our understanding (visually anyway)...spiritual things...in fact, when Paul was given a glimpse, it was so great, he wasn't permitted, or could not, even speak of it! Our God is a Spiritual being, and he dwells in a spiritual realm. Our enemy is a spiritual being, and his evil ones work their evils on that level as well. I imagine it would be hard to descibe such things using only words, especially when the audience has nothing to compare it to...we have no prior knowledge of this place.
But everything being described in Revelation is most real and it most certainly echos through into our world. For example, when the Dragon fails to devour the child and goes to make war on 'the rest of the womans children'...do we not see that today? Has Satan and his servants not been actively engaged in a war against the Saints? Is that not what Paul said? Our fight is not against flesh and blood...

I suppose my point is this: symbols do not take away from the real nature of the book...in point of fact, they help inhance it, help us feel it more and understand it more. Too many people don't understand this, and so set up strawmen arguments about what symbols and spiritualizing means. It makes true discussion on the topic difficult, frankly.
 

Trekson

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Hi Naomi, You stated – “I think there is a bit of hermeneutical assumption that says that Rev 1:19 is speaking of "past-present-future" events. Because when one reads what it says...while that interpretation could be pressed into it, it seems a far more naturally reading to see: "John, write down what you've just seen, what you will see, and what you'll see next".

I don’t understand how the obvious understanding isn’t the natural understanding. Even before I got into prophecy as a study interest just reading the words one can only come up with one definition. One you see as natural can only be because you are searching for the symbolic instead of the reality.

The timeframe of Revelations is built within itself. “hast seen” Rev. 1, “things which are” Rev. 2-5. Rev. 4:1 tells us that John is going to be shown the future but first he describes what he sees when he arrives in heaven. The future events begin w/ cp. 6 thru the end of Rev.

You said: “I think getting hung up on the appearance of two words to the detriment of the actual content is a failing. Perhaps Revelation does not say 'dream' or 'vision', but from the first Chapter, we are made abundently aware that John is 'shown' what he is to write down. If you went through Revelation and catalogued the words "I saw", how many of those would you find, do you think?

Paul had something similar happen to him also but apparently it was so real, he couldn’t distinguish whether it was an in or out of body experience or if it was a vision or a revelation (truth). (2 Cor. 12:2-4) You seem to accept the realism of the spiritual nature but I think you have a hard time grasping how it can also be physical and real at the same time. When the disciples saw Christ’s resurrected body, at first they thought it was a ghost but Christ reassured them and showed them how he could be touched and eat, things “ghosts” don’t normally do. When Christ endured His temptations, was he seeing visions? I don’t believe so, I think the devil actually took him to those places. A real, physical occurrence using spiritual power as a catalyst. Similar to how miracles work. The results are real and tangible via spiritual power.

You said, “Also, the correlation between Daniel and Revelation is undeniable...the use of "beast" language to describe kingdoms/nations or rulers that oppose God. That symbols are used to describe realities in both books are unescapable. When Daniel gave us the prophecies of the strange beasts...or the statue, both of them with 'different parts'...like a frankenstein...does anyone think that that's literally what Daniel saw?”

You’re absolutely right, there is no denying the correlation between the two but, imo, it is the same message using two distinctly different styles, one apocalyptic, one prophetic. I most certainly do believe that what Daniel described was exactly what he saw. He needed the angels help to understand what he was seeing. He did NOT automatically know they were symbols being used to describe various nations.

You said: “I'm unsure why you think having a 'spiritual' vision/encounter of heaven should put Revelation out of the category of 'dreams/vision'. We are told that John will be 'shown'...that he 'bore witness' to all that he 'saw'. Then we are told he was 'in the Spirit' and he 'came up here'. And then, repeatedly, we see "and I saw", throughout the book. Sounds like visions to me.

The one time the word “vision” was used in Rev. 9:17 was the only time that particular definition was used in the NT. When you go back to the root word is describing something he was literally “gazing” at. I believe that John was physically in heaven, not being shown visions but seeing as how God exists in the past, present and future at the same time, He was showing John how the future was going to unfold through what I can only imagine as some type of movie screen. The images he writes about were the real actual things he saw and when they needed further explanation he was given it within the context, as what happens in Rev. 17. Do I need to know exactly how that worked to believe it? No, I don’t, that is what faith is for.

You said: “Those of us who say that the book is full of 'symbols' don't do so as a way of waving away the meaning of the book, not at all! We say that a great big chunk of the book is attempting to explain things that are almost beyond our understanding (visually anyway)...spiritual things...in fact, when Paul was given a glimpse, it was so great, he wasn't permitted, or could not, even speak of it!”

John did not have that restriction placed upon him. While we may not know exactly what some of these things might be, like the “locusts” in Rev. 9, we can come up with a somewhat logical idea because of our advancements in technology, like we can with Rev. 11:9 using satellite imagery. If John’s day they would think we are all seeing “visions” when we watch TV or movies. While in a movie the events may be fictional, but the way we see them are real and actual portrayals.

You said: “Our God is a Spiritual being, and he dwells in a spiritual realm. Our enemy is a spiritual being, and his evil ones work their evils on that level as well. I imagine it would be hard to descibe such things using only words, especially when the audience has nothing to compare it to...we have no prior knowledge of this place.”

Is there a spiritual realm? Yes! But is it less real or physical than our Earth? No! We don’t become some type of airy wisp. Our bodies will be as real as they are now, just perfected. In heaven, we will walk on real streets, live in real homes, interact with other real spiritual people, eat real fruit, etc..

You said: “But everything being described in Revelation is most real and it most certainly echos through into our world. For example, when the Dragon fails to devour the child and goes to make war on 'the rest of the womans children'...do we not see that today?

No, we don’t. Not the way it is described in the context. Yes, we’re in a spiritual war and have been since Adam, but when the dragon makes war in this context, the dragon will be a real person, it will be on real people, with real blood and a real way of escape for the 144,000 and real consequences for us the church, who will not have a way to escape and as Christ predicted, if we weren’t raptured, cutting short the time of persecution, no Christian flesh will have been saved.
 

Davy

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Just more SPECULATION on Jewish NON-BIBLICAL literature, that's the main subject of this thread.

APOCALYPTIC LITERATURE
"A series of pseudepigraphic works, mainly of Jewish origin, appeared during the period between 210 BC and 200 AD. They have many features in common. The most striking is the resemblance they all bear to the Book of Daniel. Following this model, most of them use "vision" as a literary device by which to introduce their conceptions of the remote future. A side product of this same movement was the composition, mainly in Alexandria, of the Sibylline books. The literary device of "vision" was one used in the Aeneid by Virgil, the classical contemporary of a large number of these works."
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

Pseudoepigraphic folks means exterior writings that are not canon, not proven with authenticated authors, but more of a philosophical anonymous nature.

"Probably from Essenes:
By the method of exclusions we are led thus to adopt the conclusion of Hilgenfeld, that they are the work of the Essenes. We have, however, positive evidence. We know from Josephus that the Essenes had many secret sacred books. Those books before us would suit this description. Further, in one of these books (4 Esd) we find a story which affords an explanation of the existence of these books. 2 (4) Esd 14:40-48 tells how to Ezra there was given a cup of water as it were fire to drink, and then he dictated to five men. These men wrote in characters which they did not understand "for forty days" until they had written "four score and fourteen books" (RV). He is commanded, "The first that thou hast written publish openly, and let the worthy and unworthy read it: but keep the seventy last that thou mayest deliver them to such as be wise among thy people."

While the twenty-four books of the ordinary canon would be open to all, these other seventy books would only be known by the wise-presumably, the Essenes. This story proceeds on the assumption that all the biblical books had been lost during the Babylonian captivity, but that after he had his memory quickened, Ezra was able to dictate the whole of them; but of these only twenty-four were to be published to all; there were seventy which were to be kept by a society of wise men."
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)

Among the occult mystic circles, or your local New Age bookstore, you'll find all kinds of psedepigraphical works that claim to be missing books of The Bible that were somehow discarded! That of course is a load of crap. The only manuscripts not included in our Bible that might have been is the Ethiopic version of the book of Enoch. But because it obviously contains 'some' psedepigraphia parts, it is not valid enough to be included in the Bible Canon. Same with the Apocrypha, it contains writings that might be of interest, but then it has some writings that are obvious psedepigraphia. The fit this is based on is how our present Bible Books all weave together in content, with support for each other, repetition of events, quoting each other, etc. Enoch does this some, which is enough to consider it as Canonical, but then it strays in other parts, so it was not included.

So be very... careful brethren, of those who might propose that there is OTHER valid Bible literature in existence, that the Catholic Church councils of old merely 'left out'. Especially when you hear some speak of the missing 18 years of our Lord Jesus' early life, that he went to India, or Egypt, etc., and studied with the wise men of the east, then you have entered the occult circle of Lucifer's initiate twilight zone!
 
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Naomi25

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Hi Naomi,
I don’t understand how the obvious understanding isn’t the natural understanding. Even before I got into prophecy as a study interest just reading the words one can only come up with one definition. One you see as natural can only be because you are searching for the symbolic instead of the reality.
Hi Trekson...sorry I didn't see your reply sooner...I'm usually running low on time, so I just look for the 'alerts' and don't often have time to just browse. So...thanks for the sholder tap!

I'm fairly sure I've been over this before with you, but I'm happy to do so again. The reason why 'the obvious understanding isn't the natural understanding' is because when one reads Revelation chronologically and in a strictly literalmanner, it simply doesn't make sense. We have Christ returning more than once and world ending events happening more then once. How many theophanies can we expect from Christ's second coming? How many times can we expect the sky to 'roll up like a scroll'...and yet be there in the next chapter to blow nasty breezes upon the unrighteous? At some point you either have to start accepting the cyclical nature of the visions...the recapitulatory nature of the book...or you have to start reading these things in a less than 'literal' sense..."well...it might SAY a star fell to earth and the sky rolled up like a scroll...but what it really means is that it was just a comet that caused a bit of trouble for them and the sky kinda shook". But...are we reading it literally or not? Are we holding to that rule or not? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot criticise others for reading the book in a way that makes sense, if what you are doing is essentially the same, except your bending your own hermeneutic to do so.

The problem I believe many people have with interpreting Revelation comes with the fact that they believe they should be able to just pick it up and read it like they read history. The book is not history, it's apocolyptic in genre. Apocolytpic is a style of literature that the people the book was originally written to would have been very familiar with. A little like, I suppose, Old English, or Shakespearan. The flow is not particularly natural for us, nor is the use of imagry or style. But for them, it WAS their Shakespeare...the theme and vibrant images would have spoke courage and life into the churches that were facing persecution. And it worked...they persevered through all that, and today the Chruch still lives. Now...of course Revelation is for every generation of Church, but we cannot ignore the fact that it was intially written for them and in a particular style. We cannot ignore that style, any more than our teachers would allow us to ignore particular genres today in English class. Genre matters...it matters if you're presenting or reading something as history, or poetry, or as a news report. Trying to pass off a news report as poetry will get you a big fat fail. And trying to read Revelation as if it's not apocolytic will get you...Dispensationalism. They attempt to stick it solidly into "Prophectic" and miss the apocolytic part, not realising the difference. They're so opposed to the 'symbolic' nature of the book, they forget how often in 'real life' symbols are used...used powerfully to invoke strong reactions and emotions from people...and that symbols always stand for very real things, very real truths. They are not ways to wave away the truth and make it some pie in the sky that doesn't really matter or didn't really happen. It's very hard to get your senses to engage from words on a page: smell, touch, sight...but with the correct use of symbols and images you can engage heart and emotions...it helps you to feel the magesty or horror behind what is being described.

The timeframe of Revelations is built within itself. “hast seen” Rev. 1, “things which are” Rev. 2-5. Rev. 4:1 tells us that John is going to be shown the future but first he describes what he sees when he arrives in heaven. The future events begin w/ cp. 6 thru the end of Rev.

I've said this before, but I can't remember who to....there is nothing to suggest that this means "past-present-future" at all. In point of fact, it could just as easily mean..."write what you just saw, what you see now, and what you are about to see".
But, let's say it does mean what you suggest. If the natural reading tells us that Chapter 6 forward is "future", then another problem presents itself. Whose future? If it's John's future, it could have begun as soon as his vision ended. In which case those seal judgements could span most of the interadvental age. It's hard to argue against that, really, as those seals seem to echo Christ's warnings of 'birth pangs' in the Olivet Discourse.
To me...this suggests that the book itself is not quite as 'cut and dried' in terms of a "last 7 years" time period as some would have it.

Paul had something similar happen to him also but apparently it was so real, he couldn’t distinguish whether it was an in or out of body experience or if it was a vision or a revelation (truth). (2 Cor. 12:2-4) You seem to accept the realism of the spiritual nature but I think you have a hard time grasping how it can also be physical and real at the same time. When the disciples saw Christ’s resurrected body, at first they thought it was a ghost but Christ reassured them and showed them how he could be touched and eat, things “ghosts” don’t normally do. When Christ endured His temptations, was he seeing visions? I don’t believe so, I think the devil actually took him to those places. A real, physical occurrence using spiritual power as a catalyst. Similar to how miracles work. The results are real and tangible via spiritual power.

So...let me get this straight. Revelation cannot be apocolyptic like Daniel, because it doesn't have the words 'dream' or 'vision' in it, and every time John says "I saw" he was being shown "in the flesh"? So....it doesn't count if he was shown all those things while actually there, rather than just have images put in his head?
First....there is no real way to ever know if that is true or not. It doesn't say if John was physically transported to heaven, that would be a guess only. The only thing we have to go on is that John..."In the Spirit", was "shown" things.
So...I'm sorry, but in any way but semantics...that's dreams and visions...and that's apocolyptic.


You’re absolutely right, there is no denying the correlation between the two but, imo, it is the same message using two distinctly different styles, one apocalyptic, one prophetic. I most certainly do believe that what Daniel described was exactly what he saw. He needed the angels help to understand what he was seeing. He did NOT automatically know they were symbols being used to describe various nations.
I think you're missing a big point in terms of the difference between prophectic and apocolytic. I'll try and explain:
Of course Daniel described exactly what he saw, and of course he needed the angels help to understand it...why would he automatically know what it meant? That is one of the features of apocolyptic. It is largely thanks to Daniel and other OT references that the symbols in Revelation can be understood.
The problem with assuming that Daniel and Rev are the "same message using two distinct styles" is that they aren't, in fact, using different styles. Revelation still uses the beast analogy. If Revelation was just prophectic and was speaking about nations (as the beast image was in Daniel), it would have just described them as nations. The minute Revelation picks up the beast images it tells us we are dealing with apocolyptic, not just plain prophetic.
 

Naomi25

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The one time the word “vision” was used in Rev. 9:17 was the only time that particular definition was used in the NT. When you go back to the root word is describing something he was literally “gazing” at. I believe that John was physically in heaven, not being shown visions but seeing as how God exists in the past, present and future at the same time, He was showing John how the future was going to unfold through what I can only imagine as some type of movie screen. The images he writes about were the real actual things he saw and when they needed further explanation he was given it within the context, as what happens in Rev. 17. Do I need to know exactly how that worked to believe it? No, I don’t, that is what faith is for.

Again, that is pure supposition, without any possible way of proving it one way or the other. And...I'm unsure whether it matters. If God "shows" John something via a dream, vision or in the flesh....? So? He still saw all the images, symbols etc God wanted him to see and write down and pass onto the Church. The correlation between what John saw and what Daniel saw is still strong also.

John did not have that restriction placed upon him. While we may not know exactly what some of these things might be, like the “locusts” in Rev. 9, we can come up with a somewhat logical idea because of our advancements in technology, like we can with Rev. 11:9 using satellite imagery. If John’s day they would think we are all seeing “visions” when we watch TV or movies. While in a movie the events may be fictional, but the way we see them are real and actual portrayals.
So....you find it more believable that some of the more "far out there" things of John's book are just 'techonology', then his attempt to describe spiritual realities? Even though he's being given a look into said spiritual realm?
I will never understand this generations obessession to be the focual point of all scripture.
God doesn't give a toss about our stupid toys. They come and go in a blink of his eye. The spiritual realities that move beyond where we can percieve...they are forever, and even though the Lamb has won and is triumphant, dark enemies thrash against God and man and will do so until the end. Revelation is not about helicopters or satellites or our silly microchips...its about the Church remaining strong in our triumphant Lord as that battle rages.

You said: “Our God is a Spiritual being, and he dwells in a spiritual realm. Our enemy is a spiritual being, and his evil ones work their evils on that level as well. I imagine it would be hard to descibe such things using only words, especially when the audience has nothing to compare it to...we have no prior knowledge of this place.”

Is there a spiritual realm? Yes! But is it less real or physical than our Earth? No! We don’t become some type of airy wisp. Our bodies will be as real as they are now, just perfected. In heaven, we will walk on real streets, live in real homes, interact with other real spiritual people, eat real fruit, etc..
I...wasn't aware of suggesting that realm was any less real than ours. If anything, I'd say it is more-so. All I was saying is that I believe God...and therefore John, felt it was more important to describe to his Church what was playing out on 'the other side' so we may have courage and strength as we face persecution. I believe that is much more likely than a book being about John looking ahead and seeing Satan comandeering our toys to try and strike back at God.

No, we don’t. Not the way it is described in the context. Yes, we’re in a spiritual war and have been since Adam, but when the dragon makes war in this context, the dragon will be a real person, it will be on real people, with real blood and a real way of escape for the 144,000 and real consequences for us the church, who will not have a way to escape and as Christ predicted, if we weren’t raptured, cutting short the time of persecution, no Christian flesh will have been saved.

The Dragon is Satan, who is a real 'person', and he has always been intent on persecuting and killing God's people. There is real blood, with real people. Thousands of Christians perish annually in the name of Christ and the number ever increases. Our escape, as always, is Christ, who holds our souls safe from the second death. That is his promise to all who love him. And 144000...while I know you will heartily disagree with me...that is a highly symbolic number...12x12x1000. 12 of course being a symbol of the apostles and the 12 tribes of Israel...symbolising the people of God. And 1000, symbolising completion, perfection. In other words...144,000 is all of God's people...all tribes, tongues, nations and peoples...a vast multitude that no one can number.
 

Trekson

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Hi Trekson...sorry I didn't see your reply sooner...I'm usually running low on time, so I just look for the 'alerts' and don't often have time to just browse. So...thanks for the sholder tap!

I thought that might be the case as I didn't respond in a way that would give you an alert, hence the second message.
 
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Enoch111

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And 144000...while I know you will heartily disagree with me...that is a highly symbolic number...12x12x1000. 12 of course being a symbol of the apostles and the 12 tribes of Israel...symbolising the people of God. And 1000, symbolising completion, perfection. In other words...144,000 is all of God's people...all tribes, tongues, nations and peoples...a vast multitude that no one can number.
That's about as nonsensical as one can get.

But the Holy Spirit clearly distinguishes between (a) EXACTLY 144,000 redeemed Israelites from the 12 tribes of Israel and (b) the Church gathered from all the nations and beyond counting.

Why do Christians have to resort to this kind of subterfuge when God makes things plain for us to understand? God is not finished with Israel, and there are scores of Bible prophecies to teach Christians this important lesson.
 

Naomi25

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That's about as nonsensical as one can get.

But the Holy Spirit clearly distinguishes between (a) EXACTLY 144,000 redeemed Israelites from the 12 tribes of Israel and (b) the Church gathered from all the nations and beyond counting.

Why do Christians have to resort to this kind of subterfuge when God makes things plain for us to understand? God is not finished with Israel, and there are scores of Bible prophecies to teach Christians this important lesson.

Says the person who's inconsistencies go before him. You berate those who use numbers symbolically in Revelation claiming they never are, but then admit that 12 clearly is. You also say that "the DAY of the Lord" is not a strict 24 hour period, but a long period of time used for God's purposes at the end...(a rather 'non-literal' approach to that reading), and go on to severly mock anyone who suggests that on the flip side a 1000 years may be a period of time used for God's purposes at the end, but not, perhaps a strict 1000 years.
So...I'd say hypocritical and inconsistent.