Prophesy in the New Covenant

[This Vale Of Tears]

Have you ever noticed how cults and false religions tend to have prophets? From the prophet Muhammad for Muslims to Joseph Smith for the Mormons to the "prophetess" Ellen G. White for the Seventh Day Adventists. If these religions truly understood the Bible and the New Covenant, they would know that the age of prophets is over.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

One of the more neglected parts of the gospels is the account of the Transfiguration where Jesus is transfigured in a vision before his disciples. He is seen talking to both Moses (the law) and Elijah (the prophets). Peter suggests making a tabernacle for all three, making Jesus equal to the law and prophets, but he is answered with a voice from heaven saying "This is my beloved son, listen to him". The lesson here is that Jesus is greater than the prophets and the law; that Jesus is the fulfillment of both.

But to understand why the age of prophets ended, it's important to understand why it began in the first place. It goes back to the days of Moses when God wanted fervently to speak face to face with is people, but his people rejected the idea, telling Moses, "Don't let God speak to us, lest we die. But let God speak to you and you speak to us." This rejection truly broke the heart of God, so the age of prophets began but it was Plan B because the Jews rejected Plan A.

So prophets, aside from being marked by their ability to foretell the future by divine revelation, had a positional value of representing God to the people. The last of the prophets was John the Baptist, then came the fulfillment of all prophets Jesus Christ.


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediatorbetween God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

To not understand that Jesus has become for us our one and only mediator is to completely miss the point of the New Covenant in a fundamental way. Jesus is for us what God always intended in how he relates to his people. Jesus is God face to face with his children, "up close and personal." To revert to prophets is to reject Jesus as "high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.



Hebrews 1:1,2
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;







So what is prophesy in the New Covenant? The gift of prophesy is a gift of divine revelation not to be mistaken for Old Covenant prophets who were positionally set between men and God. John the Revelator had the gift of prophesy, for example, but he wasn't a prophet. God doesn't speak to his people through prophets anymore, and one should be wary of anyone who calls themselves a prophet or claims the gift of prophesy that you should hear God's voice through them. It's the mark of deception and an absolute contradiction to the Christian gospel.

 

[jiggyfly]

What do you consider the purpose of a pope is for and wouldn't it be included in your list?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

What do you consider the purpose of a pope is for and wouldn't it be included in your list?

You've so thoroughly misunderstood the OP that I think I would be wasting my time trying to explain it anew. Suffice to say, if the pope is a prophet then so is your pastor. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.

 

[Dodo_David]

Have you ever noticed how cults and false religions tend to have prophets? From the prophet Muhammad for Muslims to Joseph Smith for the Mormons to the "prophetess" Ellen G. White for the Seventh Day Adventists. If these religions truly understood the Bible and the New Covenant, they would know that the age of prophets is over.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

One of the more neglected parts of the gospels is the account of the Transfiguration where Jesus is transfigured in a vision before his disciples. He is seen talking to both Moses (the law) and Elijah (the prophets). Peter suggests making a tabernacle for all three, making Jesus equal to the law and prophets, but he is answered with a voice from heaven saying "This is my beloved son, listen to him". The lesson here is that Jesus is greater than the prophets and the law; that Jesus is the fulfillment of both.

But to understand why the age of prophets ended, it's important to understand why it began in the first place. It goes back to the days of Moses when God wanted fervently to speak face to face with is people, but his people rejected the idea, telling Moses, "Don't let God speak to us, lest we die. But let God speak to you and you speak to us." This rejection truly broke the heart of God, so the age of prophets began but it was Plan B because the Jews rejected Plan A.

So prophets, aside from being marked by their ability to foretell the future by divine revelation, had a positional value of representing God to the people. The last of the prophets was John the Baptist, then came the fulfillment of all prophets Jesus Christ.


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediatorbetween God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

To not understand that Jesus has become for us our one and only mediator is to completely miss the point of the New Covenant in a fundamental way. Jesus is for us what God always intended in how he relates to his people. Jesus is God face to face with his children, "up close and personal." To revert to prophets is to reject Jesus as "high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 1:1,2
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;





So what is prophesy in the New Covenant? The gift of prophesy is a gift of divine revelation not to be mistaken for Old Covenant prophets who were positionally set between men and God. John the Revelator had the gift of prophesy, for example, but he wasn't a prophet. God doesn't speak to his people through prophets anymore, and one should be wary of anyone who calls themselves a prophet or claims the gift of prophesy that you should hear God's voice through them. It's the mark of deception and an absolute contradiction to the Christian gospel.

I fully agree with what This Vale of Tears says in the above-quoted post.

That is why I consider it wrong to pray to anyone other than God the Father.

Pray to the woman who gave birth to Jesus? No. Doing so would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5.
Pray to any deceased church leader or church servant? No. Doing so would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5.

Jesus taught us to pray directly to our Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. Nowhere in the New Testament are we encouraged to go through a deceased sinner to get our prayer requests to our Heavenly Father.

According to the Bible, the only person who ever walked on the Earth who did not sin is Christ Jesus. That is why Jesus is our only mediator between us and God the Father.

 

[day]

Have you ever noticed how cults and false religions tend to have prophets? From the prophet Muhammad for Muslims to Joseph Smith for the Mormons to the "prophetess" Ellen G. White for the Seventh Day Adventists. If these religions truly understood the Bible and the New Covenant, they would know that the age of prophets is over.

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

One of the more neglected parts of the gospels is the account of the Transfiguration where Jesus is transfigured in a vision before his disciples. He is seen talking to both Moses (the law) and Elijah (the prophets). Peter suggests making a tabernacle for all three, making Jesus equal to the law and prophets, but he is answered with a voice from heaven saying "This is my beloved son, listen to him". The lesson here is that Jesus is greater than the prophets and the law; that Jesus is the fulfillment of both.

But to understand why the age of prophets ended, it's important to understand why it began in the first place. It goes back to the days of Moses when God wanted fervently to speak face to face with is people, but his people rejected the idea, telling Moses, "Don't let God speak to us, lest we die. But let God speak to you and you speak to us." This rejection truly broke the heart of God, so the age of prophets began but it was Plan B because the Jews rejected Plan A.

So prophets, aside from being marked by their ability to foretell the future by divine revelation, had a positional value of representing God to the people. The last of the prophets was John the Baptist, then came the fulfillment of all prophets Jesus Christ.


1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediatorbetween God and men, the Man Christ Jesus


So what is prophesy in the New Covenant? The gift of prophesy is a gift of divine revelation not to be mistaken for Old Covenant prophets who were positionally set between men and God. John the Revelator had the gift of prophesy, for example, but he wasn't a prophet. God doesn't speak to his people through prophets anymore, and one should be wary of anyone who calls themselves a prophet or claims the gift of prophesy that you should hear God's voice through them. It's the mark of deception and an absolute contradiction to the Christian gospel.

I disagree with you that John of Revelation was not a prophet. He was "sent" by Jesus with a "message" for the church concerning "things to come". Rev 1:1-2. However, I do believe that that type of prophecy ended with him.

There is another aspect of prophecy which I believe is what is being referred to as "prophecy" in the list of gifts of the Holy Spirit which is given to the church 1 Cor 12:4-11. It is the calling of the faithful back to a closer walk with God, like the Old Testament prophets but without new visions or "Thus says the Lord" revelations. It is the ability to discern the current state of the church and apply the Scriptures to it in order to let the faithful know when they are wandering from God's path and call them to repentance and renewal.

 

[jiggyfly]

You've so thoroughly misunderstood the OP that I think I would be wasting my time trying to explain it anew. Suffice to say, if the pope is a prophet then so is your pastor. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.

Seeing that Jesus is my pastor now and He fulfills all my needs, so I guess you could say that my pastor is indeed a prophet. :)

 

[Mungo]

I fully agree with what This Vale of Tears says in the above-quoted post.

That is why I consider it wrong to pray to anyone other than God the Father.

Pray to the woman who gave birth to Jesus? No. Doing so would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5.
Pray to any deceased church leader or church servant? No. Doing so would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5.

Jesus taught us to pray directly to our Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. Nowhere in the New Testament are we encouraged to go through a deceased sinner to get our prayer requests to our Heavenly Father.

According to the Bible, the only person who ever walked on the Earth who did not sin is Christ Jesus. That is why Jesus is our only mediator between us and God the Father.

Why do some people throw in items that are irrelevant to the topic?

Why do some people want to turn every thread into catholic bashing?

Is it a knee jerk reaction to anything a Catholic posts?

 

[justaname]

I am uncertain on how to put this so I will just be blunt. God knows the end from the beginning, He is omniscient. He has always been working with plan A and will always be working with plan A. God is not dependent on man for anything including his decisions.

The reference to John the Revelator not being a prophet is also incorrect and the scripture that proves my case is this:

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


John had a message given to him by an angel to give to the seven churches that are in Asia. He was entrusted by God to reveal His message so yes John was a prophet by any standard or measure.


To your message though I totally agree "one should be wary of anyone who calls themselves a prophet or claims the gift of prophesy that you should hear God's voice through them. "

 

[Dodo_David]

Why do some people throw in items that are irrelevant to the topic?

Why do some people want to turn every thread into catholic bashing?

Is it a knee jerk reaction to anything a Catholic posts?

Uh, This Vale of Tears is Catholic, and I said that I agree with everything that he says in the OP of this thread.
Since he quoted 1 Timothy 2:5, I mentioned how that verse applies to prayer.

 

[Angelina]

I totally agree with post 4# well said DD :)

 

[afaithfulone4u]

I fully agree with what This Vale of Tears says in the above-quoted post.

That is why I consider it wrong to pray to anyone other than God the Father.

Pray to the woman who gave birth to Jesus? No. Doing so would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5.
Pray to any deceased church leader or church servant? No. Doing so would contradict 1 Timothy 2:5.

Jesus taught us to pray directly to our Heavenly Father in Jesus' name. Nowhere in the New Testament are we encouraged to go through a deceased sinner to get our prayer requests to our Heavenly Father.

According to the Bible, the only person who ever walked on the Earth who did not sin is Christ Jesus. That is why Jesus is our only mediator between us and God the Father.

Correct!
We do not pray to Jesus nor Mary nor even the Holy Spirit and we do not worship angels whom are saints as we seen Stephen upon being stoned having the face of an angel for his martyrdom.
We only give prayer unto the Father just as our brother Jesus did and told us to do! We are to pray in the name of Jesus as if we are Jesus because we are part of his body and Jesus sits ON the right hand of God for the Father does everything BY His Word and WITH His Word.. Jesus is the Word whom the Father created all things by and with. All of the angels are to worship Jesus for when we honor The Word we are showing worship to the Father.

When we pray in the name of Jesus... The Father sees us as Jesus as we are hide in him. We do not pray to the Father calling Him Jesus for the Father is head over His Son YET... Jesus could claim being equal with God for he is the Word of God and God and His Word are one.


John 16:23-28
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
KJV

Luke 8:20-21
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
KJV
Matt 12:47-50
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
KJV

1 Cor 11:4
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
KJV

Rom 15:6
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV
1 Cor 15:24-28
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Every knee must bow to the Word of God!!

 

[Mungo]

Correct!
We do not pray to Jesus nor Mary nor even the Holy Spirit and we do not worship angels whom are saints as we seen Stephen upon being stoned having the face of an angel for his martyrdom.
We only give prayer unto the Father just as our brother Jesus did and told us to do! We are to pray in the name of Jesus as if we are Jesus because we are part of his body and Jesus sits ON the right hand of God for the Father does everything BY His Word and WITH His Word.. Jesus is the Word whom the Father created all things by and with. All of the angels are to worship Jesus for when we honor The Word we are showing worship to the Father.

When we pray in the name of Jesus... The Father sees us as Jesus as we are hide in him. We do not pray to the Father calling Him Jesus for the Father is head over His Son YET... Jesus could claim being equal with God for he is the Word of God and God and His Word are one.


John 16:23-28
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
KJV

Luke 8:20-21
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
KJV
Matt 12:47-50
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
KJV

1 Cor 11:4
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
KJV

Rom 15:6
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV
1 Cor 15:24-28
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

Every knee must bow to the Word of God!!

You have just proved my point

A completely off topic rant.

 

[Dodo_David]

You have just proved my point

A completely off topic rant.

All of the alleged "off topic" stuff pertains to 1 Timothy 2:5, in which the Apostle Paul tells us that the only mediator between God the Father and us is Messiah Jesus.

In his OP, Vale writes,

To not understand that Jesus has become for us our one and only mediator is to completely miss the point of the New Covenant in a fundamental way. Jesus is for us what God always intended in how he relates to his people. Jesus is God face to face with his children, "up close and personal."

I am affirming Vale's above-quoted statement.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I disagree with you that John of Revelation was not a prophet. He was "sent" by Jesus with a "message" for the church concerning "things to come". Rev 1:1-2. However, I do believe that that type of prophecy ended with him.

There is another aspect of prophecy which I believe is what is being referred to as "prophecy" in the list of gifts of the Holy Spirit which is given to the church 1 Cor 12:4-11. It is the calling of the faithful back to a closer walk with God, like the Old Testament prophets but without new visions or "Thus says the Lord" revelations. It is the ability to discern the current state of the church and apply the Scriptures to it in order to let the faithful know when they are wandering from God's path and call them to repentance and renewal.

No, John the Revelator was not a prophet, he had the gift of prophesy which is not the same thing. I made a compelling case in the OP that a prophet was a position, a liaison between God and his people because his people rejected God's original plan to deal with them directly. The reason that Jesus tells us not to call anyone 'father' or 'teacher' is because with the initiation of the New Covenant, there would no longer be any mediator between men and God save Jesus Christ. This is why even gifted leaders, "sent" messengers, your pastor, my priest, or even the Pope can be considered a prophet because all the prophets have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ as I demonstrated with ample scriptural reference.

If there's anything I don't think I need to explain to Protestants is that there is nobody who comes between men and God because we now have Jesus. The veil in the temple was rent from top to bottom as a visual illustration to drive this point home, and then a few decades later, the temple was destroyed, never to be rebuilt. What more could God have done to intimate this to us?

All of the alleged "off topic" stuff pertains to 1 Timothy 2:5, in which the Apostle Paul tells us that the only mediator between God the Father and us is Messiah Jesus.

In his OP, Vale writes,


I am affirming Vale's above-quoted statement.

All of the alleged "off topic" stuff pertains to 1 Timothy 2:5, in which the Apostle Paul tells us that the only mediator between God the Father and us is Messiah Jesus.

In his OP, Vale writes,


I am affirming Vale's above-quoted statement.

We may disagree on the issue of prayer. In the Catholic both/and thinking, one does not choose between prayers to God and prayers to Mary, all the prayers of the saints are brought before the throne in golden bowls of incense. In my experience, praying the Rosary brings me closer to the Lord because there is no competition in heaven. Everything serves to glorify God. But like I said, it's just a disagreement.

Where I think you're wrong is tying this in to the issue of prophets. They're not even remotely in the same category unless you think that Mary is a prophet to Catholics. She's not, she's the mother of the Lord, the honored woman who brought salvation into the world through childbirth. But all the honor shown to Mary both in heaven and verified by God's holy Church, does not make her a prophet, nor cause her to supplant Jesus as our "priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."

But I think you and I see eye to eye in the bigger issue, that prophets no longer exist, having their fulfillment in Jesus Christ who is for us so much more than a prophet. The resurgence of prophets in cults is the mark of their error.

Why do some people throw in items that are irrelevant to the topic?

Why do some people want to turn every thread into catholic bashing?

Is it a knee jerk reaction to anything a Catholic posts?

Well, to be fair, I started the post by "bashing" Seventh Day Adventists, Muslims, and Mormons. But not to be misunderstood, I don't believe the SDA or LDS churches today to be cults. I believe they started out that way, but evolved beyond that into respectable denominations; albeit with profound departures from traditional Christian orthodoxy. I really do have a great love for Protestants mainly because I come from a family both Catholic and Protestant and I understand their point of view. Lacking the "fullness of truth" that comes with full communion with Christ's original universal church, they have certain blindnesses that limit their perceptions in understanding historical Christianity so they bash what they don't comprehend.

 

[jiggyfly]

I think that many have a gross misunderstanding about what exactly the ministry gifts are. Some think they are offices or positions while others think they are special abilities given to certain individuals.

But the truth is the ministry gifts are specific manifestations of Christ the Head ministering to His body and any/all of these manifestations appear where and when needed.

Elders are mature believers who have experience in running and raising their own families adequately and not just some special calling. Many of the so called pastors within the christian religion are simply immature and self appointed, this is why we see so many failing in marriage, child rearing and many other areas of their spiritual walk.

Do the ministry gifts of apostle and prophet still manifest? Absolutely, where ever needed, they too are needed for the immature believers.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I think that many have a gross misunderstanding about what exactly the ministry gifts are. Some think they are offices or positions while others think they are special abilities given to certain individuals.

But the truth is the ministry gifts are specific manifestations of Christ the Head ministering to His body and any/all of these manifestations appear where and when needed.

Elders are mature believers who have experience in running and raising their own families adequately and not just some special calling. Many of the so called pastors within the christian religion are simply immature and self appointed, this is why we see so many failing in marriage, child rearing and many other areas of their spiritual walk.

Do the ministry gifts of apostle and prophet still manifest? Absolutely, where ever needed, they too are needed for the immature believers.

Yes! This is insightful. It reminds me of what Jesus said about the Spirit, that like a wind, He blows where He wishes and cannot be contained by our little boxes. Good post.

 

[Dodo_David]

I really do have a great love for Protestants mainly because I come from a family both Catholic and Protestant and I understand their point of view. Lacking the "fullness of truth" that comes with full communion with Christ's original universal church, they have certain blindnesses that limit their perceptions in understanding historical Christianity so they bash what they don't comprehend.

Well, if Protestants are going to have "full communion with Christ's original universal church", then the Eastern Orthodox Church will have to figure out a way to accommodate all of those Protestants who want to have full communion with it.

 

[veteran]

This is very true, there are no more sent prophets like those whom God sent in His Word. There is no longer a need since Christ came. This is why Peter told us to be mindful of what God gave the OT prophets to write down, because much of what they were given still has yet to come to pass today.

If one claims to have a prophecy by The Holy Spirit today, that is not the same thing as the calling which God's OT prophets had. Most of what many call prophesying today, if true, will actually align with what the OT prophets, our Lord Jesus, and His NT Apostles have given us.

 

[Dodo_David]

If a modern-day person says, "Thus says the Lord", then that person had better be quoting from the Bible. Otherwise, that person is a false prophet.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Well, if Protestants are going to have "full communion with Christ's original universal church", then the Eastern Orthodox Church will have to figure out a way to accommodate all of those Protestants who want to have full communion with it.

I don't follow. The Eastern Orthodox Church is also the one, original, universal church Jesus established. The split in 1054 A.D. didn't change that. They descend from the same apostolic tradition that we do.