Like John the Baptist, did the prophets generally see the "1" Coming of the Lord or "2" in light of Rev.1:7?
Prophets seen "1" or "2" Comings of our Lord?
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shturt678 said:
Yes; IMO; see Zech.12:10; and below.
Floyd.
V.7
(a) Behold! He cometh (b)with the clouds; and every eye shall (c)see HIM, and they also which (d)pierced HIM: and all tribes of the land shall wail because of HIM. (e)Even so, Amen.
(a) Comp. App. 133. 1.2; Christ at His second Advent.
(b) (Comp. App. X1.1 "in company", "amid," "among.") In the company with (whom?) as in Zech., we hold that although they are described as "angels," that in fact HIS BODY may at least be part of that company.
This latter comment would be more feasible if what is called the 'Rapture' and is referred to in 1Thess 4:17, is in fact applicable to The Body of the Lord, as is taught by many groups, or to the Jews only at Our Lord's saving the Jewish remnant at Armageddon. There is so much differing view on this subject as there are so many differing views on the timing of the taking of the Lord's Body (Christ-ones/ Christians.) One thing is certain the Lord is to translate His Body to Himself, and He is going to rescue the remnant of Israel at the critical moment in time described in the Old Testament prophets and particularly and lucidly in Joel. It is quite possible and feasible that the two events are almost simultaneous in the sense of time that humans understand time. This idea would be feasible if the satanic Tribulation on Israel is not simultaneous to the wrath of God on the nations. A reading of Joel seems to indicate that the wrath of God as described in Revelation on the Gentile nations is subsequent, or maybe slightly overlapping with Christ's rescue of remnant Israel. Should that be the case an almost simultaneous "Rapture" of Christians could be the same event as Christ's descending to rescue Israel at the trumpet.
A well earlier analysed description of this subject is in the booklet "Joel's Prophecy Past and Future" early known as "The Use and Abuse of Joel's Prophecy" by Mike Penny, (www.obt.org.uk).
As can be seen from verse 7 "every eye shall see Him" (Christ,) and the verse goes on to say and those that pierced Him, clearly referring to the Jewish nation. This clearly also means that all nations and peoples will witness that event.
[SIZE=12pt]Note; 2012[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]A most reasonable view, in context, is that there is more than one "Rapture." Revelation is clearly a continuation of the Old Testament, Gospels and Acts; with Acts 28:28 as the change point of "Administration," (i.e. Dispensation or Age.) The time from Acts 28 to Revelation's start is clearly as Paul states, "the Mystery Church," or Body of Christ. It therefore follows that when its time is ended and its "number is made up;" it will be removed from the earth in what is called the "Rapture," or Translation, (Cor. 15:51 & 1Thess. 4:14-17)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The fact that Paul described this event in detail in 1Thess. 4:13-17, and 1Cor. 15:20-23, and that these writings are prior to Acts 28 does not detract from the facts of both events; i.e. pre-Acts 28 Jews and Gentiles, and post Acts 28 Gentiles and Jews in the pre-Revelation event.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The grouping described in Rev. 7 are clearly extracted from the "Great Tribulation," and are primarily Jews with Gentiles also, who have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb," V14. Their kinship and experience is similar to the Acts period Jews and Gentile Christians, and the verses of Scripture pertaining to them are: Matt. 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36, Jer. 50:4, Isa. 10:20-24 etc.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]To summarise; the writers take the view that there are at least possibly 2, or even 3 "Rapture events."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]1) Post Acts 28 to approx. the beginning of Revelation "Mystery Body of Christ."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]2) Pre. Acts 28 "Body of Christ," which may or may not be simultaneous with 1), but may well be simultaneous with 3).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]3) Overcomers described in Rev. 7, extracted from "the Great Tribulation," as described above; Scripture refs: Rev. 18:4, Jer. 50:4-9, Isa. 10:20-24.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Not to be forgotten is the remarkable and miraculous raising and ascending of the special witnesses of God/Christ; Rev. 11:12.[/SIZE]
(c) "Comprehend," (Comp. App. 133 1.8a.)
(d) (Zech. 12: 9-14.) (Matt. 24:29-30.) (Acts 1:11-12.) Many teachers say that "all tribes of the land" applies to Israel only. However, in context it possibly applies to all people of the world who will be disturbed by His appearing, with many different motives for that disturbance. It is a fact that as the phrase is attached to those that "pierced Him," the Jews in particular will wail in the sense of mourning as described in Zech. 12.
(e) Emphatically so, it will happen. "Amen," see 3:14, and 2 Cor. 1:20. This is a transliteration, but the original word is variously translated: "verily" "truth," and "He is the truth" (Jn. 14:6.) In Isa. 65:16 "the God of truth" is "the God of Amen." In Rev. 3:14, it refers to the speaker, who is identified in Chapter (1) as Christ the resurrected one!
The "even so," shows the definite nature of the statement of verse 7 indicating that it will definitely happen!
Thank you for your response brother Floyd
On the run this morning as have the ol' hospital ministry this morning, however excellent response my brother - above my head thus had to go over several times. Till I get back on again, I was wondering if you considered the prophecy in Zech.12:10 construed with Joel 3:1 with the outpouring the the Holy Spirit prophecied thus Zechariah seen the 1st Coming, but not the 2nd?
For example possibly Mal.3:2 saw ony the 2nd Coming separately, and not the 1st - just throwing this out there as to be very candid with you - I forgot?
Will have more time after my weekly ministry - you and I are so thankful we have our health! Thank you Jesus!
Old Jack in need of a new body however.
On the run this morning as have the ol' hospital ministry this morning, however excellent response my brother - above my head thus had to go over several times. Till I get back on again, I was wondering if you considered the prophecy in Zech.12:10 construed with Joel 3:1 with the outpouring the the Holy Spirit prophecied thus Zechariah seen the 1st Coming, but not the 2nd?
For example possibly Mal.3:2 saw ony the 2nd Coming separately, and not the 1st - just throwing this out there as to be very candid with you - I forgot?
Will have more time after my weekly ministry - you and I are so thankful we have our health! Thank you Jesus!
Old Jack in need of a new body however.
Thank you for your response brother Floyd
On the run this morning as have the ol' hospital ministry this morning, however excellent response my brother - above my head thus had to go over several times. Till I get back on again, I was wondering if you considered the prophecy in Zech.12:10 construed with Joel 3:1 with the outpouring the the Holy Spirit prophecied thus Zechariah seen the 1st Coming, but not the 2nd?
What Zech. is describing in prophecy, is that remarkable event in the yet future, when Jews will "look on Him who they pierced, and mourn Him as an only son".
The grief they will experience when they realise en-mass, that they crucified their long desired Messiah; is beyond description; so the Holy Spirit uses the loss of an only son to try to express their grief.
This is clearly the Lord's second advent; as at present Israel are enemies of Christ Jesus with few exceptions; and reviled Him the first time He came to them as a baby. The second time will be as "King of kings, and Lord of lords"; and He shall reign over all the earth!
Joel 3 is describing the restoration of Israel; after Almighty God has dealt with the "nations"; meaning the surviving Gentile nations, after the "great Tribulation".
The "outpouring of the Holy Spirit" at Pentecost in Acts 2; was as promised by Jesus; and was for the purpose of evangelising the JEWS at that Time, as Peter said. There is to be a complete outpouring at a later date; see the text below.
For example possibly Mal.3:2 saw ony the 2nd Coming separately, and not the 1st - just throwing this out there as to be very candid with you - I forgot?
Mal.3:2 describes God's dealing with the nations in judgement; these are the nations that persecute Israel during the "Great tribulation"
Will have more time after my weekly ministry - you and I are so thankful we have our health! Thank you Jesus!
Old Jack in need of a new body however.
You will eventually have a "glorified body" Jack; which Paul describes as akin to the Lord's!
Floyd.
Throughout the history of the Jewish people from Abraham, Satan has been attempting to thwart the promise of God embodied in Gen. 3:15; which promise was fulfilled in Jesus the Christ (Messiah), which is yet to reach fulfillment when He (Christ Jesus) returns to earth in the yet future! Prior to that a person claiming to be the Jewish messiah will appear, who will be able to do wonders and perform acts which will be spectacular (miraculous?), and he will be accepted by the Ruling Jewish Elite; because he will have the power to negotiate a “covenant” of peace with them, which they will trust! See: [SIZE=16pt]Antichrist: Rev.13:8.[/SIZE]
It has been well said that the prophetic progress of the Jews ended at AD. 70 when their City Jerusalem and Temple was destroyed by the Romans, and the people who survived dispersed worldwide. This was predicted in Hosea 1and 2, and was a consequence of their unfaithfulness to Jehovah repeatedly, and was stated in Deuteronomy 28:63-65, with much detail given in subsequent Chapters; would be the result of their disobedience. They compounded their sin in the rejection of Jesus the Christ, with the result of the last two thousand years. Satan with masterful timing attempted via Hitler to complete the demise of God’s chosen people; but as usual overplayed his hand, and the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-37 came into play with the defeat of Hitler, and the beginning of the freeing of God’s people worldwide, to emigrate to Palestine (Deut. 30:3)! This process has only just begun, but will not have completion until Zech. 12:10 comes into play, because the final ingathering of Jews to Palestine (to the Promised borders,[SIZE=16pt] Gen. 15:18) will be under the control and auspices of their True Messiah Christ Jesus, who will have returned to earth in Power and great Glory to save His remnant Israel from the trials they must yet endure! [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]www.revelationsmessage.co.uk[/SIZE]
So, what are the signs to lookout for? In Daniel and Revelation is the prediction of a confederation of 10 nations (Dan. 2 toes) who are controlled by one man (anti-Christ), who will allow the Jews to build a temple in Jerusalem! This will be allowed, and sacrifices in the old way reinstituted, and will continue for 3.5 years prior to being terminated by anti-Christ! There will then follow 3.5 years of suffering (known as "Jacob's trouble", Jer. 30:7) for the Jewish people, which will only be terminated by the return to earth of Jesus Messiah!
He will then judge the Gentile nations as to how they treated His people Israel, and will destroy many who fail this test (Matt. 25)!
A major sign to take note of is the return of Jerusalem to full Jewish control; which in the opinion of the writers, and others, will auger the continuation of Jewish prophetic progress!
Another is the formation of a political entity in the nations adjacent to current Israel; which then morphs into a religious entity. Some people feel the current events of the “Arab Spring” (August 2013) may be such, but only time will tell. (See: [SIZE=16pt]Rev Chapter 13http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter13.html[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]revelationsmessage. [/SIZE]
Until these events take place, Jews worldwide at the end of Yom-Kippur will continue to say “next year in Jerusalem”!
Floyd.
On the run this morning as have the ol' hospital ministry this morning, however excellent response my brother - above my head thus had to go over several times. Till I get back on again, I was wondering if you considered the prophecy in Zech.12:10 construed with Joel 3:1 with the outpouring the the Holy Spirit prophecied thus Zechariah seen the 1st Coming, but not the 2nd?
What Zech. is describing in prophecy, is that remarkable event in the yet future, when Jews will "look on Him who they pierced, and mourn Him as an only son".
The grief they will experience when they realise en-mass, that they crucified their long desired Messiah; is beyond description; so the Holy Spirit uses the loss of an only son to try to express their grief.
This is clearly the Lord's second advent; as at present Israel are enemies of Christ Jesus with few exceptions; and reviled Him the first time He came to them as a baby. The second time will be as "King of kings, and Lord of lords"; and He shall reign over all the earth!
Joel 3 is describing the restoration of Israel; after Almighty God has dealt with the "nations"; meaning the surviving Gentile nations, after the "great Tribulation".
The "outpouring of the Holy Spirit" at Pentecost in Acts 2; was as promised by Jesus; and was for the purpose of evangelising the JEWS at that Time, as Peter said. There is to be a complete outpouring at a later date; see the text below.
For example possibly Mal.3:2 saw ony the 2nd Coming separately, and not the 1st - just throwing this out there as to be very candid with you - I forgot?
Mal.3:2 describes God's dealing with the nations in judgement; these are the nations that persecute Israel during the "Great tribulation"
Will have more time after my weekly ministry - you and I are so thankful we have our health! Thank you Jesus!
Old Jack in need of a new body however.
You will eventually have a "glorified body" Jack; which Paul describes as akin to the Lord's!
Floyd.
Throughout the history of the Jewish people from Abraham, Satan has been attempting to thwart the promise of God embodied in Gen. 3:15; which promise was fulfilled in Jesus the Christ (Messiah), which is yet to reach fulfillment when He (Christ Jesus) returns to earth in the yet future! Prior to that a person claiming to be the Jewish messiah will appear, who will be able to do wonders and perform acts which will be spectacular (miraculous?), and he will be accepted by the Ruling Jewish Elite; because he will have the power to negotiate a “covenant” of peace with them, which they will trust! See: [SIZE=16pt]Antichrist: Rev.13:8.[/SIZE]
It has been well said that the prophetic progress of the Jews ended at AD. 70 when their City Jerusalem and Temple was destroyed by the Romans, and the people who survived dispersed worldwide. This was predicted in Hosea 1and 2, and was a consequence of their unfaithfulness to Jehovah repeatedly, and was stated in Deuteronomy 28:63-65, with much detail given in subsequent Chapters; would be the result of their disobedience. They compounded their sin in the rejection of Jesus the Christ, with the result of the last two thousand years. Satan with masterful timing attempted via Hitler to complete the demise of God’s chosen people; but as usual overplayed his hand, and the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-37 came into play with the defeat of Hitler, and the beginning of the freeing of God’s people worldwide, to emigrate to Palestine (Deut. 30:3)! This process has only just begun, but will not have completion until Zech. 12:10 comes into play, because the final ingathering of Jews to Palestine (to the Promised borders,[SIZE=16pt] Gen. 15:18) will be under the control and auspices of their True Messiah Christ Jesus, who will have returned to earth in Power and great Glory to save His remnant Israel from the trials they must yet endure! [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]www.revelationsmessage.co.uk[/SIZE]
So, what are the signs to lookout for? In Daniel and Revelation is the prediction of a confederation of 10 nations (Dan. 2 toes) who are controlled by one man (anti-Christ), who will allow the Jews to build a temple in Jerusalem! This will be allowed, and sacrifices in the old way reinstituted, and will continue for 3.5 years prior to being terminated by anti-Christ! There will then follow 3.5 years of suffering (known as "Jacob's trouble", Jer. 30:7) for the Jewish people, which will only be terminated by the return to earth of Jesus Messiah!
He will then judge the Gentile nations as to how they treated His people Israel, and will destroy many who fail this test (Matt. 25)!
A major sign to take note of is the return of Jerusalem to full Jewish control; which in the opinion of the writers, and others, will auger the continuation of Jewish prophetic progress!
Another is the formation of a political entity in the nations adjacent to current Israel; which then morphs into a religious entity. Some people feel the current events of the “Arab Spring” (August 2013) may be such, but only time will tell. (See: [SIZE=16pt]Rev Chapter 13http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter13.html[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]revelationsmessage. [/SIZE]
Until these events take place, Jews worldwide at the end of Yom-Kippur will continue to say “next year in Jerusalem”!
Thank you Randor; I think!RANDOR said:
Floyd.
Thank you for your response!RANDOR said:
Ol' memories of horrors. I'm ex-Navy, had the boys drop anchor forgetting about the maintenance deck crew didn't get a chance to connect the anchor chain back as still working on it, and I needed the boat to stop then, immediately. They quickly followed orders and the anchor went with the chain never to be seen again, the boat kept going even in full reverse, and my perfect record blemished and your tax money down in the 'deep.' My point, make sure your chain connected - really happened, however somehow I squirmed my way out of it.
Sqirming Jack's back - btw need a new body asap.
Thank you for your service Jack...................chains and anchors need to be intact.............chains from our adversary need to be broken.
Now....................start breaking chains Jack....................BREAK THEM ALL! ......BREAK THEM NOW!
Now....................start breaking chains Jack....................BREAK THEM ALL! ......BREAK THEM NOW!
Thank you for your response!Floyd said:
Let's move into shallower waters with Zech.12:10, "And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace (my renditions render "spirit") and supplication; and they will look upon me, whom they have pierced, and will mourn over Him like the mourning over an only one,......." I was wondering if the is the Pre-incarnate, loosely speaking, Godman Jesus was speaking? I do notice vs.10-14 grammatically connected to vs.5-9 - now we're getting too deep again.
Anyway, outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost prophesied by the Angel of the Lord? Randor's paygrade for sure, just keep the rope connected to the boat.
I have Rev.1:7 as His Coming on the last day? Where Zech.12:10 waaay before that time, that is, will have to ask a neutral party - RANDOR - if I'm even heading for the end of the rainbow where the pot of gold is - hope it doesn't move on me again?
Old Jack
Thank you for your response!
Let's move into shallower waters with Zech.12:10, "And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace (my renditions render "spirit") and supplication; and they will look upon me, whom they have pierced, and will mourn over Him like the mourning over an only one,......." I was wondering if the is the Pre-incarnate, loosely speaking, Godman Jesus was speaking? I do notice vs.10-14 grammatically connected to vs.5-9 - now we're getting too deep again.
This is God Almighty speaking! He is about to bring Israel back to Himself; their Lo-Ammi state is about to finish; they will mourn for a period of time; then rejoice !
Anyway, outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost prophesied by the Angel of the Lord? Randor's paygrade for sure, just keep the rope connected to the boat.
Not many people understand what realy happened here Jack; and most won't accept what I am sure is the truth; mainly because of the corrupt Pulpits. To avoid repetition, and because the detail is there; please see text below.
I have Rev.1:7 as His Coming on the last day? Where Zech.12:10 waaay before that time, that is, will have to ask a neutral party - RANDOR - if I'm even heading for the end of the rainbow where the pot of gold is - hope it doesn't move on me again?
There is a correlation between the two , some say the same time!
Old Jack
Floyd.
GIFTS AT PENTECOST
THE ENDOWMENT OF SPECIAL GIFTS AT PENTECOST, THE REASON FOR THEM, THEIR CESSATION AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT CESSATION.
The Lord gave knowledge just prior to his ascending into heaven that empowerment for special purposes would be given (Acts 1:8.) That event took place at Pentecost, which was 50 days (7 Sabbaths) after Our Lord became the wave offering before Jehovah of the first fruit at Passover (Lev. 23:10-15) (1Cor. 15:23.) Our Lord's ascension to the Father was as the first fruit (wave offering,) and hence His command to Mary Magdalene at the tomb not to touch Him, (John 20:17.) Pentecost as is well known is the Jewish Feast to celebrate a number of parts of their history, i.e. the Exodus, etc., but also concentrates on thanksgiving for expiation of sin together with sin offerings. A major part of the celebration is for the FIRST FRUITS of the harvest, as it was after this stage that it is released for general consumption prior to which it is in the domain of Jehovah only. Christ (Messiah,) is the first fruit of those that have eternal life (1Cor. 15:20-23.) The fact that the Holy Spirit gave empowerment at that moment for initially the evangelising (general consumption) of the Jews (Acts 2,) clearly points to the yet future celebration of the feast of Booths! At the Pentecost feast, many foreign Jews were in Jerusalem with many different languages spoken. Peter the fisherman later the disciple and very close friend of Jesus, despite his denials, was given the special task to care for and to feed Christ's (Messiah's) lambs and sheep, which confirmed Christ's statement that He came only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt. 15:24,) (at that time.) Peter spoke at the moment of empowering to explain what was happening. He referred to Joel (2:28-31) where the prophecy was given that such would happen. The reading of Joel in the context of Peter's comment clearly shows together with other cross references in Scripture, that this was a particularly critical moment in the history of the Jewish people, as the Joel prophecy refers to the end Age events for Israel, and the dealing of the Almighty with the nations of the world, (see Revelation.)
The special gifts that were given of tongues languages, were meant for translation of the Gospel of Christ which was the Kingdom Gospel, to the foreign Jews (Acts 2,) there at that time, and also in the following years as the apostles and evangelists moved out into those territories. The special empowerment at that time (called by some the gifts of the Spirit, as such they were,) continued for a number of years with various of Christ's disciples and apostles, with remarkable effect both in terms of healing, but particularly as regards the spreading of the Gospel of Messiah come to the Jews! Unfortunately, as the evangelistic work progressed so did the opposition of the Enemy particularly through the hierarchical Jewish priesthood etc., and important synagogues throughout the known world rejected the message of Paul (which Paul had been uniquely commissioned to present by Christ on the Damascus road.) Despite the rebuffing by the synagogues and the Jewish hierarchy, Jews and Gentiles formed into separate groups (churches), and many miraculous events and happenings are recorded.
Resistance inside the Jewish community and priestly hierarchy grew and by roughly AD 61 Paul visited the most important synagogue in the Gentile world (as was then known) at Rome. The events of Acts 28 record, that although Paul was heard, Christ's message was again rejected, and from Acts 28:28 onwards, Scripture records the remarkable, and for the Jews terrible condemnation that the message of Christ would now go to the Gentiles, to the blessing of the Gentiles, and the formation of the "Mystery Church," (Rom. 16:25-26.) (Eph. 3:3-9,) (Eph. 5:30-32.) That juncture also corresponds with the prophecy in Hosea where Israel is made Lo-Ammi "Not My People." Since that terrible punctuation mark in history, of the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Romans, Israel has remained "Lo-Ammi." Up to the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple 483 years had elapsed of the prophecy given to Daniel (Dan. 9) which was given to him by the angel of Jehovah, the commencement of which was to be from the beginning of the rebuilding of the Temple and the walls of Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile. There are yet 7 years of that prophecy to be fulfilled, at which time Jewish history will have re-started, in the Almighty's definition of Jewish history.
Returning to the apostle Paul and his works prior to his reputed execution by Nero, as is well known from examination of the 7 letters that he wrote prior to (AD 61) (1 & 2 Thess., Hebrews, 1 & 2 Cor., Gal., & Romans,) they are full of optimism regarding the nearness of Christ's return, doctrine, preparation, behaviour, exhortation, and accounts of the actions of remarkable miracles performed. After AD 61 which coincides with Acts 28, Paul could no longer heal on request, (2 Tim. 4:20,) (Phil. 2:26-27) and wrote 7 more letters (Phil., Philemon, Col., Eph., 1 & 2 Tim. & Titus,) all of which are totally different in their content, and Paul is clearly a relatively broken man. In his testimony before Agrippa (Acts 25 and 26,) he clearly states that when the Lord confronted him on the Damascus road he was told at that time that there were things which he would be told to do immediately, and there would be later communications from Christ regarding later events, (Acts. 26:16-17.) It is clear from Paul's latter letters (after AD 61,) that he is no longer expecting the Lord's imminent return, and as Paul was uniquely commissioned and informed by Christ, he was well aware that Christ's return was in abeyance, and that he was soon to depart the flesh, (as a Roman citizen, by merciful beheading.) The encounter with the Roman Jews was decisive, and the last one in his earlier instruction from Christ. It is clear from prophecy that the Jews had to accept Christ when he was presented to them, and yet will (Zech 12:10), (Matt. 24:30.) At the presentation of Christ and Barabbas by Pilot, the Jews rejected Jesus Christ but accepted Jesus Barabbas (Matt. 27:17,) with the cry "His blood be upon us and our children," (Matt. 27:25-26.) After Acts 28 and the final rejection of Christ, that cry and self condemnation was to be brought about, and the "Lo-Ammi" state began.
Hosea clearly shows that Jehovah's people the Jews (the name Jehovah can only be used in conjunction with the Jewish nation, because its meaning is Elohimin Covenant relationship with Israel, except where "Jehovah Zebaoth" is used, which means "GOD OF ALL THE WORLD" or "God of all peoples",) become "Ammi" again, which means "My people." That undoubtedly coincides with the last 7 years of the prophecy given to Daniel [SIZE=14pt](Dan.9.)[/SIZE]
It is evident in the reading of the first few chapters of Revelation that there is a continuation of the Jewish witness to the Gospel of Christ with special enabling from the Lord Himself, which consists of exhortation, encouragement etc., this is to help them to "Overcome," which is a major priority of that time. That enabling is not the same as the later "pouring out of my spirit on all flesh" (Joel 2:28,) which will be after the Lord's second Advent.
TO CONCLUDE,[SIZE=14pt] all the foregoing is in support of the thesis that the clear references to the special enabling in Acts, continues in different form when Jewish Spiritual history re-commences[/SIZE], which we are of the strong opinion correlates with the Revelation period and has special description in the first chapters of Revelation. The "pouring out of God's Spirit," which some now claim is current, and which has its origin in the claims of Mrs. McPherson, the founder of the "Charismatic" movement in "Pentecostal" form, using the Joel prophecy of Joel 2:28, is incorrectly applied to the present time. It is a re-emergence of Montanism of A.D. 200 - 800, and the warning of Christ (Matt. 7:22-23,) to those that claim falsely to act for Him should be heeded.
The above therefore does not comply with, or give veracity to the movement in the world at the present time which has various denominational titles, but one of which is "Charismatic"; and actually flies in the face of such teaching that is held to be truth by these groups.
We state absolutely that we are well aware, that Almighty God, can and will move in individual cases, to perform wonders. We would never wish to go against Scripture or the Almighty's purpose and will never knowingly do so. When He acts through His Holy Spirit in individual lives in many and various special ways, they are usually well hidden, as the only emphasis at this time (Age) (Administration) should be Christ crucified for collective and individual sin, and returning again (soon,) to restore ideal Israel (Jeshuran) and the world for the 1000 years reign, prior to handing back the completed work to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24.) The Enemy however, as in the counterpart Jesus Barabbas, has many popular counterfeits with which to draw most of the world's peoples into the net of deception, and eventual judgement by the Almighty.
One of the most popular these days is that healing can be demanded by prayer, but the logical outcome of such, if it was legitimate in the will of Almighty God, would be that nobody would die! That of course would defeat one of the purposes of God in the Son, which is to defeat death, which is the "last enemy," (1 Cor. 15:25-26.) This is the proof, if such is needed, that the "Charismatic," and "Pentecostal" claims are of the Enemy!
The Apostle Paul made it very clear in his letter to Timothy (2 Tim. 2:15) that it is incumbent on each of us to work at Scripture, to feel after the Truth of the Almighty, and in any denomination or group which insists that its teaching cannot be questioned, that ethos is clearly against Scripture, which is clearly against the Almighty, and therefore must have its origins with the Enemy.
At the present time, the main work of the true Body of Christ, is to preach Christ crucified for the sin of the world, sitting now in Glory at the Right Hand of God the Father, until His enemies are made His footstool, and soon to return to earth in Power and Glory. His return (Christ Jesus) will be for the true Body and the rescue of the remnant Israel, when they are at a critical moment of their survival struggle.
The Events of Pentecost; What is the Truth? (Discussion Document).http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk...t What is the Truth Discussion Document.htm
If you have questions or comments, please click here.mailto:[email protected]
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Let's move into shallower waters with Zech.12:10, "And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace (my renditions render "spirit") and supplication; and they will look upon me, whom they have pierced, and will mourn over Him like the mourning over an only one,......." I was wondering if the is the Pre-incarnate, loosely speaking, Godman Jesus was speaking? I do notice vs.10-14 grammatically connected to vs.5-9 - now we're getting too deep again.
This is God Almighty speaking! He is about to bring Israel back to Himself; their Lo-Ammi state is about to finish; they will mourn for a period of time; then rejoice !
Anyway, outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost prophesied by the Angel of the Lord? Randor's paygrade for sure, just keep the rope connected to the boat.
Not many people understand what realy happened here Jack; and most won't accept what I am sure is the truth; mainly because of the corrupt Pulpits. To avoid repetition, and because the detail is there; please see text below.
I have Rev.1:7 as His Coming on the last day? Where Zech.12:10 waaay before that time, that is, will have to ask a neutral party - RANDOR - if I'm even heading for the end of the rainbow where the pot of gold is - hope it doesn't move on me again?
There is a correlation between the two , some say the same time!
Old Jack
Floyd.
GIFTS AT PENTECOST
THE ENDOWMENT OF SPECIAL GIFTS AT PENTECOST, THE REASON FOR THEM, THEIR CESSATION AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT CESSATION.
The Lord gave knowledge just prior to his ascending into heaven that empowerment for special purposes would be given (Acts 1:8.) That event took place at Pentecost, which was 50 days (7 Sabbaths) after Our Lord became the wave offering before Jehovah of the first fruit at Passover (Lev. 23:10-15) (1Cor. 15:23.) Our Lord's ascension to the Father was as the first fruit (wave offering,) and hence His command to Mary Magdalene at the tomb not to touch Him, (John 20:17.) Pentecost as is well known is the Jewish Feast to celebrate a number of parts of their history, i.e. the Exodus, etc., but also concentrates on thanksgiving for expiation of sin together with sin offerings. A major part of the celebration is for the FIRST FRUITS of the harvest, as it was after this stage that it is released for general consumption prior to which it is in the domain of Jehovah only. Christ (Messiah,) is the first fruit of those that have eternal life (1Cor. 15:20-23.) The fact that the Holy Spirit gave empowerment at that moment for initially the evangelising (general consumption) of the Jews (Acts 2,) clearly points to the yet future celebration of the feast of Booths! At the Pentecost feast, many foreign Jews were in Jerusalem with many different languages spoken. Peter the fisherman later the disciple and very close friend of Jesus, despite his denials, was given the special task to care for and to feed Christ's (Messiah's) lambs and sheep, which confirmed Christ's statement that He came only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt. 15:24,) (at that time.) Peter spoke at the moment of empowering to explain what was happening. He referred to Joel (2:28-31) where the prophecy was given that such would happen. The reading of Joel in the context of Peter's comment clearly shows together with other cross references in Scripture, that this was a particularly critical moment in the history of the Jewish people, as the Joel prophecy refers to the end Age events for Israel, and the dealing of the Almighty with the nations of the world, (see Revelation.)
The special gifts that were given of tongues languages, were meant for translation of the Gospel of Christ which was the Kingdom Gospel, to the foreign Jews (Acts 2,) there at that time, and also in the following years as the apostles and evangelists moved out into those territories. The special empowerment at that time (called by some the gifts of the Spirit, as such they were,) continued for a number of years with various of Christ's disciples and apostles, with remarkable effect both in terms of healing, but particularly as regards the spreading of the Gospel of Messiah come to the Jews! Unfortunately, as the evangelistic work progressed so did the opposition of the Enemy particularly through the hierarchical Jewish priesthood etc., and important synagogues throughout the known world rejected the message of Paul (which Paul had been uniquely commissioned to present by Christ on the Damascus road.) Despite the rebuffing by the synagogues and the Jewish hierarchy, Jews and Gentiles formed into separate groups (churches), and many miraculous events and happenings are recorded.
Resistance inside the Jewish community and priestly hierarchy grew and by roughly AD 61 Paul visited the most important synagogue in the Gentile world (as was then known) at Rome. The events of Acts 28 record, that although Paul was heard, Christ's message was again rejected, and from Acts 28:28 onwards, Scripture records the remarkable, and for the Jews terrible condemnation that the message of Christ would now go to the Gentiles, to the blessing of the Gentiles, and the formation of the "Mystery Church," (Rom. 16:25-26.) (Eph. 3:3-9,) (Eph. 5:30-32.) That juncture also corresponds with the prophecy in Hosea where Israel is made Lo-Ammi "Not My People." Since that terrible punctuation mark in history, of the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Romans, Israel has remained "Lo-Ammi." Up to the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple 483 years had elapsed of the prophecy given to Daniel (Dan. 9) which was given to him by the angel of Jehovah, the commencement of which was to be from the beginning of the rebuilding of the Temple and the walls of Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile. There are yet 7 years of that prophecy to be fulfilled, at which time Jewish history will have re-started, in the Almighty's definition of Jewish history.
Returning to the apostle Paul and his works prior to his reputed execution by Nero, as is well known from examination of the 7 letters that he wrote prior to (AD 61) (1 & 2 Thess., Hebrews, 1 & 2 Cor., Gal., & Romans,) they are full of optimism regarding the nearness of Christ's return, doctrine, preparation, behaviour, exhortation, and accounts of the actions of remarkable miracles performed. After AD 61 which coincides with Acts 28, Paul could no longer heal on request, (2 Tim. 4:20,) (Phil. 2:26-27) and wrote 7 more letters (Phil., Philemon, Col., Eph., 1 & 2 Tim. & Titus,) all of which are totally different in their content, and Paul is clearly a relatively broken man. In his testimony before Agrippa (Acts 25 and 26,) he clearly states that when the Lord confronted him on the Damascus road he was told at that time that there were things which he would be told to do immediately, and there would be later communications from Christ regarding later events, (Acts. 26:16-17.) It is clear from Paul's latter letters (after AD 61,) that he is no longer expecting the Lord's imminent return, and as Paul was uniquely commissioned and informed by Christ, he was well aware that Christ's return was in abeyance, and that he was soon to depart the flesh, (as a Roman citizen, by merciful beheading.) The encounter with the Roman Jews was decisive, and the last one in his earlier instruction from Christ. It is clear from prophecy that the Jews had to accept Christ when he was presented to them, and yet will (Zech 12:10), (Matt. 24:30.) At the presentation of Christ and Barabbas by Pilot, the Jews rejected Jesus Christ but accepted Jesus Barabbas (Matt. 27:17,) with the cry "His blood be upon us and our children," (Matt. 27:25-26.) After Acts 28 and the final rejection of Christ, that cry and self condemnation was to be brought about, and the "Lo-Ammi" state began.
Hosea clearly shows that Jehovah's people the Jews (the name Jehovah can only be used in conjunction with the Jewish nation, because its meaning is Elohimin Covenant relationship with Israel, except where "Jehovah Zebaoth" is used, which means "GOD OF ALL THE WORLD" or "God of all peoples",) become "Ammi" again, which means "My people." That undoubtedly coincides with the last 7 years of the prophecy given to Daniel [SIZE=14pt](Dan.9.)[/SIZE]
It is evident in the reading of the first few chapters of Revelation that there is a continuation of the Jewish witness to the Gospel of Christ with special enabling from the Lord Himself, which consists of exhortation, encouragement etc., this is to help them to "Overcome," which is a major priority of that time. That enabling is not the same as the later "pouring out of my spirit on all flesh" (Joel 2:28,) which will be after the Lord's second Advent.
TO CONCLUDE,[SIZE=14pt] all the foregoing is in support of the thesis that the clear references to the special enabling in Acts, continues in different form when Jewish Spiritual history re-commences[/SIZE], which we are of the strong opinion correlates with the Revelation period and has special description in the first chapters of Revelation. The "pouring out of God's Spirit," which some now claim is current, and which has its origin in the claims of Mrs. McPherson, the founder of the "Charismatic" movement in "Pentecostal" form, using the Joel prophecy of Joel 2:28, is incorrectly applied to the present time. It is a re-emergence of Montanism of A.D. 200 - 800, and the warning of Christ (Matt. 7:22-23,) to those that claim falsely to act for Him should be heeded.
The above therefore does not comply with, or give veracity to the movement in the world at the present time which has various denominational titles, but one of which is "Charismatic"; and actually flies in the face of such teaching that is held to be truth by these groups.
We state absolutely that we are well aware, that Almighty God, can and will move in individual cases, to perform wonders. We would never wish to go against Scripture or the Almighty's purpose and will never knowingly do so. When He acts through His Holy Spirit in individual lives in many and various special ways, they are usually well hidden, as the only emphasis at this time (Age) (Administration) should be Christ crucified for collective and individual sin, and returning again (soon,) to restore ideal Israel (Jeshuran) and the world for the 1000 years reign, prior to handing back the completed work to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24.) The Enemy however, as in the counterpart Jesus Barabbas, has many popular counterfeits with which to draw most of the world's peoples into the net of deception, and eventual judgement by the Almighty.
One of the most popular these days is that healing can be demanded by prayer, but the logical outcome of such, if it was legitimate in the will of Almighty God, would be that nobody would die! That of course would defeat one of the purposes of God in the Son, which is to defeat death, which is the "last enemy," (1 Cor. 15:25-26.) This is the proof, if such is needed, that the "Charismatic," and "Pentecostal" claims are of the Enemy!
The Apostle Paul made it very clear in his letter to Timothy (2 Tim. 2:15) that it is incumbent on each of us to work at Scripture, to feel after the Truth of the Almighty, and in any denomination or group which insists that its teaching cannot be questioned, that ethos is clearly against Scripture, which is clearly against the Almighty, and therefore must have its origins with the Enemy.
At the present time, the main work of the true Body of Christ, is to preach Christ crucified for the sin of the world, sitting now in Glory at the Right Hand of God the Father, until His enemies are made His footstool, and soon to return to earth in Power and Glory. His return (Christ Jesus) will be for the true Body and the rescue of the remnant Israel, when they are at a critical moment of their survival struggle.
The Events of Pentecost; What is the Truth? (Discussion Document).http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk...t What is the Truth Discussion Document.htm
If you have questions or comments, please click here.mailto:[email protected]
Or go to [SIZE=14pt]Subjectindex[/SIZE]
www.revelationsmessage.co.uk or
Go to chapters 1 to 22http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/
Thank you for your reponse again~!
Only to bring others up to speed regarding Lev.23:10 in light of the N.T. ICor.15:20, "Christ...,first fruits..." Raised by the glory of God. The figure of "the first fruits" suggests the image of a great harvest which is ushered in by the first sheaf that is presented as an offering to God, Lev.23:10 again. As certain as Christ was raised so certainly shall we be raised bodily - souls from Adam forward already alive in hell or heaven awaiting their new bodies however here only the saved are pictured. God sees us contextually as already being raised, that is, interval of time not considered.
I'm more with a remnant of Israel that become Jewish Christians before the "1" forthcoming Parousia - the end as far as our good ol' earth goes.
Old Jack
Only to bring others up to speed regarding Lev.23:10 in light of the N.T. ICor.15:20, "Christ...,first fruits..." Raised by the glory of God. The figure of "the first fruits" suggests the image of a great harvest which is ushered in by the first sheaf that is presented as an offering to God, Lev.23:10 again. As certain as Christ was raised so certainly shall we be raised bodily - souls from Adam forward already alive in hell or heaven awaiting their new bodies however here only the saved are pictured. God sees us contextually as already being raised, that is, interval of time not considered.
I'm more with a remnant of Israel that become Jewish Christians before the "1" forthcoming Parousia - the end as far as our good ol' earth goes.
Old Jack
Thank you again brother Floyd as did enjoy your work as usual.Floyd said:
Old Jack
btw been awhile since been in the passages and concepts you brought forward and was edifying to hit it again not that I'm fully correct.
Retrobyter
Active Member
Shabbat shalom, Jack.
The rabbis down through time even before Yochanan the Immerser came along knew that the prophecies about the Messiah fell into two camps: The Suffering and Dying Messiah and the Victorious and Reigning Messiah. This caused the rabbis to call the Suffering Messiah, "Messiah the son of Joseph" (as in the Joseph who suffered in prison and became second in charge of all Egypt) and the Victorious Messiah "Messiah the son of David." However, the rabbis often debated whether there would be just one Messiah fulfilling both roles or two separate Messiahs. This is the question that Yochanan was asking Yeshua` who was identified as the Messiah:
"You are obviously the Suffering and Dying Messiah, the son of Yosef, because you (and I) are being rejected. Are you also the one who will be the Victorious and Reigning Messiah, the son of David, or should we look for another to come along?"
And how did the Messiah respond?
He performed the miracles that the Messiah the son of David would perform and told his disciples to go and show John what Yeshua` had performed, thus verifying that He would be the ONE Messiah fulfilling both roles!
I'd like to back this up to the OP: Did you know that John the Baptist was NOT expressing a doubt when he asked Yeshua`, "Art thou he that should come or do we look for another?" as so many suggest?shturt678 said:
The rabbis down through time even before Yochanan the Immerser came along knew that the prophecies about the Messiah fell into two camps: The Suffering and Dying Messiah and the Victorious and Reigning Messiah. This caused the rabbis to call the Suffering Messiah, "Messiah the son of Joseph" (as in the Joseph who suffered in prison and became second in charge of all Egypt) and the Victorious Messiah "Messiah the son of David." However, the rabbis often debated whether there would be just one Messiah fulfilling both roles or two separate Messiahs. This is the question that Yochanan was asking Yeshua` who was identified as the Messiah:
"You are obviously the Suffering and Dying Messiah, the son of Yosef, because you (and I) are being rejected. Are you also the one who will be the Victorious and Reigning Messiah, the son of David, or should we look for another to come along?"
And how did the Messiah respond?
He performed the miracles that the Messiah the son of David would perform and told his disciples to go and show John what Yeshua` had performed, thus verifying that He would be the ONE Messiah fulfilling both roles!
You can find both in Isaiah
Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
This is another duty of the Messiah when He came came in the first advent, "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord". When we read Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 Jesus is proclaiming the acceptable year of His return, and those events that happen surrounding His return. This applies to Jesus' First Advent, where as the rest of the verse, "the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" is concerning His second advent. Christ's vengeance does not come until His second advent. Jesus spoke these words in Luke 4:18, 19.
Luke 4:17 "And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah 61:1]. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,"
Luke 4:18 ""The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"
Luke 4:19 "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
Notice that Jesus ended His reading half way through the verse, and He did not go on to say; "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" and the rest of Isaiah 61. Jesus did not state those things because that is not the reason that He came to earth in the First Advent. There is a gap in this sentence between the two advents or comings of our Lord.
Jesus came to earth at the first advent to pay the price whereby you and I as sinners, could come to Him in repentance, and can find perfection in Him. Though we are not perfect, that part of Him that is in us, is perfect.
Jesus was quoting from this verse in Isaiah 61:1, 2, and that part of the schripture had been fulfilled.
Luke 4:20 "And he closed the book and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down, And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him."
Luke 4:21 "And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
Jesus Christ told them that the reason that He could only read this far is that in His first advent, this would be the only part of Isaiah's prophecy that would be fulfilled. So these verses have what is termed as the gap theory, because there is a gap between the "acceptable year of the Lord", and "The day of vengeance of our God." That day of vengeance naturally falls on the day that Jesus Christ shall return to this earth and set up His Millennium Kingdom.
Isaiah gives us the prophecy of the two comings of Christ, while Luke 4:18-21 gives us the documentation of that prophecy being fulfilled.
Isaiah 61:2 "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"
This is another duty of the Messiah when He came came in the first advent, "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord". When we read Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 Jesus is proclaiming the acceptable year of His return, and those events that happen surrounding His return. This applies to Jesus' First Advent, where as the rest of the verse, "the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" is concerning His second advent. Christ's vengeance does not come until His second advent. Jesus spoke these words in Luke 4:18, 19.
Luke 4:17 "And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias [Isaiah 61:1]. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,"
Luke 4:18 ""The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"
Luke 4:19 "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
Notice that Jesus ended His reading half way through the verse, and He did not go on to say; "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" and the rest of Isaiah 61. Jesus did not state those things because that is not the reason that He came to earth in the First Advent. There is a gap in this sentence between the two advents or comings of our Lord.
Jesus came to earth at the first advent to pay the price whereby you and I as sinners, could come to Him in repentance, and can find perfection in Him. Though we are not perfect, that part of Him that is in us, is perfect.
Jesus was quoting from this verse in Isaiah 61:1, 2, and that part of the schripture had been fulfilled.
Luke 4:20 "And he closed the book and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down, And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him."
Luke 4:21 "And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
Jesus Christ told them that the reason that He could only read this far is that in His first advent, this would be the only part of Isaiah's prophecy that would be fulfilled. So these verses have what is termed as the gap theory, because there is a gap between the "acceptable year of the Lord", and "The day of vengeance of our God." That day of vengeance naturally falls on the day that Jesus Christ shall return to this earth and set up His Millennium Kingdom.
Isaiah gives us the prophecy of the two comings of Christ, while Luke 4:18-21 gives us the documentation of that prophecy being fulfilled.
Thank you for caring again!
Only one Return of the Messiah pictured in Isa.61:2 with no future "Millennial."
Isa.6:1:2 I construe the term "vengence" positively contextually as a restoration of wholeness. Aside from the fact that there dlearly are cases where the Hebrew root carries the meaning of "punitive justice," and the further fact that God's vengeance is not tainted by a spirit of unwholesome retribution, I consider the familiar meaning of the term as too well established to allow for the precarious meaning of "vengeance." These two lines then, taken together ("to proclaim a year for the Lord to show favor, and a day of vengeance for our God,"), make a strong declaration of grace abounding with the Messiah's 1st Coming without a future "Millennial."
The last line ("to comfort all who mourn;") asserts as one of the expressed objectives of the Messiah's 1st mission "to comfort all who mourn." Using the N.T. terminology, this comfort consists chiefly in the forgiveness of sins, though this message bestows other forms of conduct as well.
Lk.4:19, "To herald a year acceptable to the Lord." (Isa.61:2, "to proclaim a year for the Lord to show favor,") This is the closing line and the climax of what the 1st Coming of the Messiah is to herald , and thereby actually to usher in, namely "a year acceptable to the Lord," to him as Kurios or Yahweh. It's usually called Jehovah's year of grace, but Isaiah calls it a year "acceptable" or pleasing to the Lord, fro this is the new era which the Messiah's 1st Coming shall usher in - no future "Millennail" ushered in also by His 2nd Coming even alluded to here sir.
Old Jack
Only one Return of the Messiah pictured in Isa.61:2 with no future "Millennial."
Isa.6:1:2 I construe the term "vengence" positively contextually as a restoration of wholeness. Aside from the fact that there dlearly are cases where the Hebrew root carries the meaning of "punitive justice," and the further fact that God's vengeance is not tainted by a spirit of unwholesome retribution, I consider the familiar meaning of the term as too well established to allow for the precarious meaning of "vengeance." These two lines then, taken together ("to proclaim a year for the Lord to show favor, and a day of vengeance for our God,"), make a strong declaration of grace abounding with the Messiah's 1st Coming without a future "Millennial."
The last line ("to comfort all who mourn;") asserts as one of the expressed objectives of the Messiah's 1st mission "to comfort all who mourn." Using the N.T. terminology, this comfort consists chiefly in the forgiveness of sins, though this message bestows other forms of conduct as well.
Lk.4:19, "To herald a year acceptable to the Lord." (Isa.61:2, "to proclaim a year for the Lord to show favor,") This is the closing line and the climax of what the 1st Coming of the Messiah is to herald , and thereby actually to usher in, namely "a year acceptable to the Lord," to him as Kurios or Yahweh. It's usually called Jehovah's year of grace, but Isaiah calls it a year "acceptable" or pleasing to the Lord, fro this is the new era which the Messiah's 1st Coming shall usher in - no future "Millennail" ushered in also by His 2nd Coming even alluded to here sir.
Old Jack
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