Protestant Apostasy Pending?

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brakelite

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This is not going to go down well with many, but it must be said.
In the early 4th century Constantine the Great, claiming a personal Christian faith, became Emperor of the western Roman Empire. After the previous Emperor Galerius had declared persecution to cease, Constantine officially restoring rights and privileges to Christians, promoting Christians to public office, and favoring the church with legislation in their favor, exemptions from taxes in some cases, turned the whole Christian landscape on its head, yet was the catalyst for the establishment of the greatest apostasy in Christian history, the RCC.
Today, we have a new emperor on the throne of western civilization, Donald Trump. He also has turned the tide of anti-Christian political leanings into a positive favortism, promising to restore the rights of free speech, re-establish Christian privileges which of recent times been eroded away by political correctness and liberalism, Trump and Constantine seem to be sharing a number of parallels.
Constantine's Edict of Milan was particularly interesting, officially restoring religious freedom, even to returning property previously confiscated. Constantine also ordered the publication of Bibles, and officially established Sunday as a day of rest, closing businesses and shutting down commerce, except for agricultural work. I can imagine how joyous the church must have been at these announcements, except among the more discerning. Many however would have been openly celebrating Constantine's rise to power, and thanking God for His great mercies in sending the church such a wonderful savior. Does this remind you of anything happening today?
For over 120 years the Seventh Day Adventist church has been teaching that before the second coming, a Sunday law will be established in America and the world, directly undermining God's 4th commandment. This Sunday law will be in conjunction with the re-establishment of the Roman Papacy as a world dictatorial superpower, with its Pope at its head.
Trump has sworn to tear up the Johnson Amendment, which in the 1950s curtailed the preaching of politics from the pulpit, on pain of incurring tax penalties. Trump has promoted many professing Christians to his cabinet, the Catholic Mike Pence being the most prominent, but a council of advisors made up of many church leaders has been announced also.
So before all you Christians start celebrating that Trump is somehow God's man and the church's future secured due to his rising to power, think on the parallels, and what became of the church under Constantine's aegis. The separation of church and state disappeared. Roman Catholicism soon became the state religion, to the exclusion of all others. Paganism officially entered the church by way of Sunday, among other heresies....persecution ceased to be implemented by the state, but was then undertaken by the church...force was used to compel worship and submission to the Popes. All these things our church has been teaching for 120 years to be repeated but on a global scale. Far from leading the church into freedom, Trump has the potential for leading the church into its greatest apostasy.
 
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Stranger

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brakelite

Really? Why must it be said?

Constantine also provided the freedom to preach and present the Gospel throughout the Roman Empire. Which is why the Gospel took root throughout Europe.

Just because the Church doesn't know how to handle freedom, is no reason to question Constantines motives. And, who said separation of church and state is required by God?

You say, 'before all you Christians'. So, what are you?
[comment removed] Trump is not leading the Church anywhere. Jesus Christ is Head of the Church. Protestants know it. What's your problem?

Stranger
 
B

brakelite

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Stranger said:
brakelite



Constantine also provided the freedom to preach and present the Gospel throughout the Roman Empire. Which is why the Gospel took root throughout Europe.
Constantine was the prime catalyst for the union of church and state ...the papacy...which denied the freedom of the gospel to be taught throughout Europe....except underground by a persecuted church such as the Waldensians and the Lollards etc.

Stranger said:
And, who said separation of church and state is required by God?
Jesus. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Ceasar's, and unto God, that which are God's" . Also, 42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

Stranger said:
Trump is not leading the Church anywhere. Jesus Christ is Head of the Church. Protestants know it. What's your problem?
If Jesus were head of the US church, why are they fawning so much over a political appointment and hailing him as the savior of American Christianity?
 

Stranger

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brakelite said:
Constantine was the prime catalyst for the union of church and state ...the papacy...which denied the freedom of the gospel to be taught throughout Europe....except underground by a persecuted church such as the Waldensians and the Lollards etc.

Jesus. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Ceasar's, and unto God, that which are God's" . Also, 42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mark 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:


If Jesus were head of the US church, why are they fawning so much over a political appointment and hailing him as the savior of American Christianity?
Constantine favored the Christian faith. There is nothing wrong with that. The papacy and pope were developed through a slow natural historical process involving the Church and its reaction to the freedoms or the persecutions or heresies it faced.

Christ's statement to 'render unto Caesar' concerned taxes. To make that a springboard to develop a doctrine of separation of church and state is quite a jump. Plus it is self defeating. For if Caesar is favorable to or becomes Christian and passes laws to favor Christianity, then you must be obedient to that. For, according to you, 'render unto Caesar'.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church period. Christians in America are happy to have a president that favors Christianity because we have had one for 8 years that did not. And we were close to getting another that would not have. And had Trump not become president, then Christianity in America would have suffered again.

America was founded on Christianity. It can function correctly only as a Christian nation. Thus it is important that our political leaders are either Christian or favor Christianity. And it is the responsibility of the Church to maintain the Churches purity and growth under this Christian nation.

It is the false doctrine of 'separation of church and state' that has corrupted this country.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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the end of that seems to be to maintain somewhere pleasant to lay your head, and no being driven into the wilderness required, wadr. Don't be surprised when your prayers are not answered, for the king you have chosen, who has already rejected God publicly, more than once.
 

tom55

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brakelite said:
This is not going to go down well with many, but it must be said.
In the early 4th century Constantine the Great, claiming a personal Christian faith, became Emperor of the western Roman Empire. After the previous Emperor Galerius had declared persecution to cease, Constantine officially restoring rights and privileges to Christians, promoting Christians to public office, and favoring the church with legislation in their favor, exemptions from taxes in some cases, turned the whole Christian landscape on its head, yet was the catalyst for the establishment of the greatest apostasy in Christian history, the RCC.
Today, we have a new emperor on the throne of western civilization, Donald Trump. He also has turned the tide of anti-Christian political leanings into a positive favortism, promising to restore the rights of free speech, re-establish Christian privileges which of recent times been eroded away by political correctness and liberalism, Trump and Constantine seem to be sharing a number of parallels.
Constantine's Edict of Milan was particularly interesting, officially restoring religious freedom, even to returning property previously confiscated. Constantine also ordered the publication of Bibles, and officially established Sunday as a day of rest, closing businesses and shutting down commerce, except for agricultural work. I can imagine how joyous the church must have been at these announcements, except among the more discerning. Many however would have been openly celebrating Constantine's rise to power, and thanking God for His great mercies in sending the church such a wonderful savior. Does this remind you of anything happening today?
For over 120 years the Seventh Day Adventist church has been teaching that before the second coming, a Sunday law will be established in America and the world, directly undermining God's 4th commandment. This Sunday law will be in conjunction with the re-establishment of the Roman Papacy as a world dictatorial superpower, with its Pope at its head.
Trump has sworn to tear up the Johnson Amendment, which in the 1950s curtailed the preaching of politics from the pulpit, on pain of incurring tax penalties. Trump has promoted many professing Christians to his cabinet, the Catholic Mike Pence being the most prominent, but a council of advisors made up of many church leaders has been announced also.
So before all you Christians start celebrating that Trump is somehow God's man and the church's future secured due to his rising to power, think on the parallels, and what became of the church under Constantine's aegis. The separation of church and state disappeared. Roman Catholicism soon became the state religion, to the exclusion of all others. Paganism officially entered the church by way of Sunday, among other heresies....persecution ceased to be implemented by the state, but was then undertaken by the church...force was used to compel worship and submission to the Popes. All these things our church has been teaching for 120 years to be repeated but on a global scale. Far from leading the church into freedom, Trump has the potential for leading the church into its greatest apostasy.
I am thankful for my fellow Christian Constantine for restoring religious freedom, returning property previously confiscated from Christians, ordering the publication of Bibles and for promoting Christians to public office. Constantine favored the Christian faith. There is nothing wrong with that.

The idea that Christians lacked all power or political sway prior to the rise of Constantine is one of the silliest aspects of the popular apostasy myth.

BTW......Pence isn't a Catholic. There are many problems with your bizarre post but that one is simply not a fact and an easily provable lie.

Paganism officially entered the church by way of Sunday? Once again, simply not a fact and a provable lie:

We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead (Letter of Barnabas A.D. 74).

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead (Justin Martyr A.D. 155).

Let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation.....(Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews 2 A.D. 203).
 

tom55

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Protestant apostasy pending????

It's not pending. It happened already. Historically it's called The Reformation!!! :D

Or are you talking about the Reformers of today wanting to Reform the Reformers of the 1500-1600's?
 

Stranger

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tom55 said:
Protestant apostasy pending????

It's not pending. It happened already. Historically it's called The Reformation!!! :D

Or are you talking about the Reformers of today wanting to Reform the Reformers of the 1500-1600's?
I recognize the apostasy occuring in the Protestant church today. But the Reformation was not an apostasy. It was a 'reformation'.

So, tell me, when did the apostasy occur in the Roman Catholic Church? Don't say the 'Reformation'. When did the Catholic Church recognize it was in error, and attempted to correct that error?

Stranger
 
B

brakelite

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tom55 said:
I am thankful for my fellow Christian Constantine for restoring religious freedom, returning property previously confiscated from Christians, ordering the publication of Bibles and for promoting Christians to public office. Constantine favored the Christian faith. There is nothing wrong with that.

The idea that Christians lacked all power or political sway prior to the rise of Constantine is one of the silliest aspects of the popular apostasy myth.

BTW......Pence isn't a Catholic. There are many problems with your bizarre post but that one is simply not a fact and an easily provable lie.

Paganism officially entered the church by way of Sunday? Once again, simply not a fact and a provable lie:

We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead (Letter of Barnabas A.D. 74).

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead (Justin Martyr A.D. 155).

Let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation.....(Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews 2 A.D. 203).
The Bible declares unequivocally that the Sabbath, Saturday, is the 7th day, and is holy and sanctified. That is Bible truth. Now you can of course choose to observe any day you wish...I will not argue with you on that score...and if you choose to keep another day fine, whether its the 8th day according to Barnabus, or the 1st day according to Tertulian that is your business. Just don't bother attempting to convince me that Sunday is a day approved of God...it is not, and there is nothing in scripture to prove otherwise. Sunday sacredness is a day sanctified and made mandatory by the Roman Catholic church, and handed down under pressure of persecution to the Protestant churches, tainted with pagan history, and having no Biblical support whatsoever. It is a church law, in direct contradiction to God's law. Follow your church if you must, but stop pretending your church is Biblical. Even your church boasts that nowhere in scripture is Sunday mandated. Nowhere. It is a church ordinance and that is all. Keeping Sunday is an observation you owe to Rome, not God.
And if you show me evidence (other than a declared "born again" experience) that Pence has thrown off his Catholic ties, great.
 

Stranger

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brakelite

Of course Sunday is a day approved by God for believers to meet and worship God and Christ. That doesn't mean it is a law that we meet on Sundays. That would be contrary to the Gospel message of Grace.

But Sunday is the day of resurrection. (John 20:1) " The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre." Thus it was natural for believers to meet on Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Christ. (Acts 20:7) "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them..."

The Sabbath is certainly not the day for Christians to meet. Why would they place themselves under law in their worship of Christ Who placed them under Grace.

Stranger
 
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brakelite

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Stranger said:
brakelite

Of course Sunday is a day approved by God for believers to meet and worship God and Christ. That doesn't mean it is a law that we meet on Sundays. That would be contrary to the Gospel message of Grace.

But Sunday is the day of resurrection. (John 20:1) " The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre." Thus it was natural for believers to meet on Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Christ. (Acts 20:7) "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them..."

The Sabbath is certainly not the day for Christians to meet. Why would they place themselves under law in their worship of Christ Who placed them under Grace.

Stranger
Your wife may be interested in your attitude regards the 7th commandment. Are you faithful to obeying the 7th commandment , and if so, why? Because its the law, or because you love your wife? Now think about that as you contemplate the 4th commandment.
 
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Stranger

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brakelite said:
Your wife may be interested in your attitude regards the 7th commandment. Are you faithful to obeying the 7th commandment , and if so, why? Because its the law, or because you love your wife? Now think about that as you contemplate the 4th commandment.
If I had a wife, I would be faithful because it is what God wants me to do. I would not be faithful because of a law that says I must be faithful. Concerning the 4th commandment, no. I will not observe the Sabbath because it is the 4th commandment. I am not under the law to require me to observe that. If in fact I want to observe it, it is not because I feel compelled by law to do it.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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I would be faithful because it is what God wants me to do.

What is the diff in "under the Law" and "fulfills the Law?"

(are you a Catholic, Stranger?)
 
B

brakelite

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Stranger said:
If I had a wife, I would be faithful because it is what God wants me to do. I would not be faithful because of a law that says I must be faithful. Concerning the 4th commandment, no. I will not observe the Sabbath because it is the 4th commandment. I am not under the law to require me to observe that. If in fact I want to observe it, it is not because I feel compelled by law to do it.

Stranger
Precisely the point I was making...and the reason I keep Sabbath; because in my relationship with Him I know it is His will I do this, and out of love for Him want to obey Him. I know it is right because the Word confirms it in Ex. 20.
 

Stranger

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brakelite said:
Precisely the point I was making...and the reason I keep Sabbath; because in my relationship with Him I know it is His will I do this, and out of love for Him want to obey Him. I know it is right because the Word confirms it in Ex. 20.
Except you reference Ex. 20:8 which is pure law. Why wouldn't you reference Gen.2:3 as your reason for observing it? Why? Because you are observing the Sabbath as a law.

Stranger
 

shnarkle

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Stranger said:
Except you reference Ex. 20:8 which is pure law. Why wouldn't you reference Gen.2:3 as your reason for observing it? Why? Because you are observing the Sabbath as a law.

Stranger
God's law is synonymous with His will; perhaps we could say it is synonymous with his nature. Ex. 20 is also observed within the context of a covenant with God. One where God proves His chosen people. James makes the same claim in the new testament by pointing out that one's faith is evident by their works. Paul also points out that "faith establishes the law". Regardless of where one cites God's commands, they are for our benefit, and only a fool would ignore God's gifts. One could assume that God made this same covenant with Adam as well, but if that's the case then it really makes no difference which passage is cited. If, however, we assume that God hadn't made a covenant with Adam at this time, then the safe bet would be to cite Ex. 20.
 

shnarkle

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Stranger said:
If I had a wife, I would be faithful because it is what God wants me to do. I would not be faithful because of a law that says I must be faithful. Concerning the 4th commandment, no. I will not observe the Sabbath because it is the 4th commandment. I am not under the law to require me to observe that. If in fact I want to observe it, it is not because I feel compelled by law to do it.

Stranger
The law can compel no one to do anything. One either sees the benefit of God's law or they don't. One can believe that God has given His law for our benefit and act on that belief by keeping God's laws. This in and of itself is usually enough to see the benefits, this is what is known as how to learn by doing. The beneficial effects are seen.

This isn't to say that there aren't those who keep God's laws for quite some time, and then fall away. This does happen as well. They just simply don't see the benefits of keeping God's laws.