Protestants and Catholics in Agreement on This...

[brakelite]

With the recent spate of disagreement and debate between Catholics and Protestants, I thought I would venture into new territory. Something that doctrinally, they agree on. Sunday sacredness. The following is an abridged catechism from the 17th century, the full version of which was fully accepted with the church as reflecting accurately the teachings of the Council of Trent.

"QUESTION: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
"ANSWER: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.

"QUESTION: How prove you that?
"ANSWER: Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power."--Henry Tuberville, D. D., "An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine"

The author of the Baptist Manual, Dr. Edward Hiscox, agrees with the above...quote from an address to a New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday.... It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week.... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism !

 

[quietthinker]

With the recent spate of disagreement and debate between Catholics and Protestants, I thought I would venture into new territory. Something that doctrinally, they agree on. Sunday sacredness. The following is an abridged catechism from the 17th century, the full version of which was fully accepted with the church as reflecting accurately the teachings of the Council of Trent.

"QUESTION: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
"ANSWER: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.

"QUESTION: How prove you that?
"ANSWER: Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power."--Henry Tuberville, D. D., "An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine"

The author of the Baptist Manual, Dr. Edward Hiscox, agrees with the above...quote from an address to a New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday.... It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week.... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism !

I find no mystery here. The 4th commandment is plain enough. Just as plain as any of the other nine commandments.
I see in it the author’s (of the commandments) identity. His title, his name and his domain.

 

[Enoch111]

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism !

1. First of all it is in Scripture that we find the first mention of "the Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10). This should not be confused with "the Day of the LORD" (a period of judgment). The Lord's Day has always been the first day of the week (commonly called Sunday) and has been recognized as the Christian sabbath for a very long time.

2. Why is the first day of the week the Lord's Day? Because Christ conquered death on that day and rose again triumphantly on that day. Christ is designated as the First Fruits of them that slept, and the feast of first fruits (on the morrow after the sabbath) was a type of Christ. The feast of Pentecost was also on the first day of the week, and there was a harvest of souls on that day, so there is tremendous spiritual significance to this day.

3. There are several mentions in the New Testament of Christians meeting on "the first day of the week" to gather to worship, bring their gifts and offerings, and partake of the Lord's Supper (also called "the Breaking of Bread").

4. Every day of the week has a connection to some pagan god. The Jewish sabbath would be on Saturday, dedicated to Saturn, who is associated with Saturnalia and also human sacrifices. So this should be of little consequence to Christians.

5. The Seventh Day Adventists make a big deal out of Sunday worship and even go so far as to call it "the Mark of the Beast"! But that is simply nonsensical.

6. While the Catholic Church might have formalized Sunday as the day of Christian worship, the actual source of that change from the Sabbath is in Scripture. Furthermore, Paul calls holy days, new moons, and sabbaths mere shadows, the reality being Christ.

 

[quietthinker]

The Lord's Day has always been the first day of the week (commonly called Sunday) and has been recognized as the Christian sabbath for a very long time.

2. Why is the first day of the week the Lord's Day? Because Christ conquered death on that day and rose again triumphantly on that day.

This is a private interpretation that finds no basis in the scriptures. It is in fact misrepresenting what Jesus himself said in the account of the Pharisees confronting Jesus because his disciples were eating the the grains from the fields they walked through.
See the story in Matthew 12:1-8

 

[brakelite]

1. First of all it is in Scripture that we find the first mention of "the Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10). This should not be confused with "the Day of the LORD" (a period of judgment). The Lord's Day has always been the first day of the week (commonly called Sunday) and has been recognized as the Christian sabbath for a very long time.

2. Why is the first day of the week the Lord's Day? Because Christ conquered death on that day and rose again triumphantly on that day. Christ is designated as the First Fruits of them that slept, and the feast of first fruits (on the morrow after the sabbath) was a type of Christ. The feast of Pentecost was also on the first day of the week, and there was a harvest of souls on that day, so there is tremendous spiritual significance to this day.

3. There are several mentions in the New Testament of Christians meeting on "the first day of the week" to gather to worship, bring their gifts and offerings, and partake of the Lord's Supper (also called "the Breaking of Bread").

4. Every day of the week has a connection to some pagan god. The Jewish sabbath would be on Saturday, dedicated to Saturn, who is associated with Saturnalia and also human sacrifices. So this should be of little consequence to Christians.

5. The Seventh Day Adventists make a big deal out of Sunday worship and even go so far as to call it "the Mark of the Beast"! But that is simply nonsensical.

6. While the Catholic Church might have formalized Sunday as the day of Christian worship, the actual source of that change from the Sabbath is in Scripture. Furthermore, Paul calls holy days, new moons, and sabbaths mere shadows, the reality being Christ.

I would be very keen to see that source for the change. Other Bible scholars, far more able than I, were unable to find one.
"The notion of a formal substitution by apostolic authority of the Lord's day [meaning Sunday] for the Jewish Sabbath [or the first for the seventh day]... and the transference to it, perhaps in a spiritualized form, of the sabbatical obligation established by the promulgation of the fourth commandment, has no basis what- ever, either in Holy Scripture or in Christian antiquity."--Sir William Smith and Samuel Cheetham, A Dictionary of Christian Antiquities," Vol. II, page I82, Article "Sabbath."
Did they miss something you found?

 

[Truth7t7]

With the recent spate of disagreement and debate between Catholics and Protestants, I thought I would venture into new territory. Something that doctrinally, they agree on. Sunday sacredness. The following is an abridged catechism from the 17th century, the full version of which was fully accepted with the church as reflecting accurately the teachings of the Council of Trent.

"QUESTION: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
"ANSWER: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.

"QUESTION: How prove you that?
"ANSWER: Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power."--Henry Tuberville, D. D., "An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine"

The author of the Baptist Manual, Dr. Edward Hiscox, agrees with the above...quote from an address to a New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday.... It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week.... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism !

I Agree The 4th Commandment (Keep Sabbath Holy) Is Alive And Well For Today, Never Has Been Replaced, And Is Eternal.

My study finds that Sunday Observance Goes Back To Justin Martyr, Who Was A Pagan Prior To His Conversion?

As Author Robert Odom explains below, the pagan Roman Empire stamped out (Sabbath/Saturday) Worship under Emperor Hadrian (117–138) under a "Penalty Of Death" as Justyn Martyr would have been 17-38 years old under Hadrian's reign.

(Justin Martyr, 100-165AD Apology Chapter XVI.)
But you, many of you, also under pretence sometimes of worshipping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sun-day to rejoicing, from a far different reason than Sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant.

Robert Leo Odom, Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity (Washington D.C.: Review and Herald Pub. Association, 1977), 297.

The second century opened with intense antipathy manifested throughout the Roman Empire by pagan Gentiles toward Jews as a result of Jewish uprisings against the Roman government in Palestine, Egypt, Cyprus, and Cyrene during the reign of Trajan (98–117). It reached its climax during the Jewish revolt led by Bar Cocheba in Judea during 132–135. Emperor Hadrian (117–138) crushed the long and bloody revolt with terrible severity, razed Jerusalem, and established a heathen community there, and made it a capital crime for a Jew to set foot on its soil. Judaism was outlawed by harsh decrees of the emperor, and all of its religious practices—especially Sabbath observance, Passover celebration, and circumcision—were prohibited under penalty of death. Although the Hadrianic decrees were softened somewhat by Antonius Pius (138–161), widespread animosity toward Judaism and everything that seemed to smack of it smoldered long afterward.

 

[brakelite]

I Agree The 4th Commandment (Keep Sabbath Holy) Is Alive And Well For Today, Never Has Been Replaced, And Is Eternal.

My study finds that Sunday Observance Goes Back To Justin Martyr, Who Was A Pagan Prior To His Conversion?

As Author Robert Odom explains below, the pagan Roman Empire stamped out (Sabbath/Saturday) Worship under Emperor Hadrian (117–138) under a "Penalty Of Death" as Justyn Martyr would have been 17-38 years old under Hadrian's reign.

(Justin Martyr, 100-165AD Apology Chapter XVI.)
But you, many of you, also under pretence sometimes of worshipping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sun-day to rejoicing, from a far different reason than Sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant.

Robert Leo Odom, Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity (Washington D.C.: Review and Herald Pub. Association, 1977), 297.

The second century opened with intense antipathy manifested throughout the Roman Empire by pagan Gentiles toward Jews as a result of Jewish uprisings against the Roman government in Palestine, Egypt, Cyprus, and Cyrene during the reign of Trajan (98–117). It reached its climax during the Jewish revolt led by Bar Cocheba in Judea during 132–135. Emperor Hadrian (117–138) crushed the long and bloody revolt with terrible severity, razed Jerusalem, and established a heathen community there, and made it a capital crime for a Jew to set foot on its soil. Judaism was outlawed by harsh decrees of the emperor, and all of its religious practices—especially Sabbath observance, Passover celebration, and circumcision—were prohibited under penalty of death. Although the Hadrianic decrees were softened somewhat by Antonius Pius (138–161), widespread animosity toward Judaism and everything that seemed to smack of it smoldered long afterward.

Mmmm. One can well understand why the observance of another day was so attractive to those Christians who didn't want to be seen to be sympathising or be mistakenly identified as Jews. Yet Sabbath observance did continue for many centuries, despite the danger and the threat of persecution, as even the pronouncement from the council of Laodicea does testify in the 4th century.

 

[Enoch111]

This is a private interpretation that finds no basis in the scriptures. It is in fact misrepresenting what Jesus himself said in the account of the Pharisees confronting Jesus because his disciples were eating the the grains from the fields they walked through.

There's no "private interpretation" here.

1. Study the Feast of First Fruits and how it applies to the first day of the week. In the KJB it is called "the morrow AFTER the sabbath".

2. Furthermore, when Christ said that He is Lord of the Sabbath, and that the Sabbath was made for man, He also indicated that the Lord of the Sabbath has the right to make the Lord's Day His day of worship. As long as the Old Covenant was in force, the sabbath commandment was in force. Following the resurrection of Christ the first day of the week replaced the sabbath for Christians.

3. So you should ask yourself why the apostle John said that he was in the Spirit on the LORD'S DAY, and why the Lord came to visit him on that particular day, when He could have come on any day.

4. Also why the Lord waited a full week to appear before Thomas on the first day of the week and be worshiped as "My Lord and my God"?

5. Also why Paul waited a full week before joining the Christians in Troas, for the breaking of bread on the first day of the week, and then preaching to them.

6. Also why Paul told the Corinthian Christians to bring their offerings on the first day of the week when they met to worship.

7. Also why Justin Martyr writing in the 2nd century stated that it was the practice of all Christians to meet on the first day of the week for worship and for the Lord's Supper.

Ever since the time of the apostles, the first day of the week (now called Sunday) was the day set aside by Christians for rest and worship. It fully meets the requirements of the 4th commandment, and goes even further, since it is the day for the Remembrance Feast commemorating the one great sacrifice of Christ.

Whatever else is taught incorrectly by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the observance of Sunday as the day for Christian worship is totally biblical.

 

[quietthinker]

There's no "private interpretation" here.

1. Study the Feast of First Fruits and how it applies to the first day of the week. In the KJB it is called "the morrow AFTER the sabbath".

2. Furthermore, when Christ said that He is Lord of the Sabbath, and that the Sabbath was made for man, He also indicated that the Lord of the Sabbath has the right to make the Lord's Day His day of worship. As long as the Old Covenant was in force, the sabbath commandment was in force. Following the resurrection of Christ the first day of the week replaced the sabbath for Christians.

3. So you should ask yourself why the apostle John said that he was in the Spirit on the LORD'S DAY, and why the Lord came to visit him on that particular day, when He could have come on any day.

4. Also why the Lord waited a full week to appear before Thomas on the first day of the week and be worshiped as "My Lord and my God"?

5. Also why Paul waited a full week before joining the Christians in Troas, for the breaking of bread on the first day of the week, and then preaching to them.

6. Also why Paul told the Corinthian Christians to bring their offerings on the first day of the week when they met to worship.

7. Also why Justin Martyr writing in the 2nd century stated that it was the practice of all Christians to meet on the first day of the week for worship and for the Lord's Supper.

Ever since the time of the apostles, the first day of the week (now called Sunday) was the day set aside by Christians for rest and worship. It fully meets the requirements of the 4th commandment, and goes even further, since it is the day for the Remembrance Feast commemorating the one great sacrifice of Christ.

Whatever else is taught incorrectly by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, the observance of Sunday as the day for Christian worship is totally biblical.

Herein is the private interpretation;
The expression in scripture ‘The Lords day’ you have equated with Sunday. The scripture does not equate the Lords Day with Sunday. This is an attempted sleight of hand to give Sunday some sort of credibility, even to surplant the commandment which clearly states it is the seventh day not the first day.
The story referenced in Matt.12:1-8 makes it clear beyond question which day they were walking though the fields on. The ensuing exchange with the Pharisees also makes it clear which day Jesus is Lord of.

You deduct that Johns reference to the Lords day mentioned in Revelation is Sunday only because of the erroneous method you have joined the dots, nay, used sleight of hand. The Lords day mentioned here is none other than the 7th day Sabbath, the day that John had kept as a rest day all his life according to the commandment. He didn’t switch days as you have suggested.

Your other references hold no weight to the point discussed.
Meeting on any day of the week to break bread wether it is the first or the 5th or the 2nd or any day for that matter does not support an abandonment of the 7th day for the 1st day of the week as per The commandment.

Just because the institutionalised Church in later generations abandoned the 7th day in favour of the 1st does also not give any weight to the point. You say it FULLY meets the requirements of the 4th commandment yet this is patently not the case as the commandment before it was changed by the institution without scriptural authority clearly states it is the 7th day that God rested and asked us to remember.

The stated reasons in your post are no other than a poorly veiled attempt to nullify God’s authority by doing violence to his unchanging and unchangable Law.

And finally, please consider this, if it was at all possible for God’s Law to be altered in any way, Jesus need not not have died. God could just have changed the rules as to what constitutes sin and given him a free pass from death.

Jesus prayed in his last 24 hrs to the Father that if it were possible to let there be some other way even articulating that he knew all things were possible for God.
The following events make it abundantly clear that there was no other way.
God did not change his Laws even for his own Son.

How arrogant then is it for man to tamper with these holy precepts.

 

[Philip James]

Romans 14: 4-10
Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

(For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God.

None of us lives for oneself, and no one dies for oneself.

For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;

 

[quietthinker]

Romans 14: 4-10
Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Before his own master he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

(For) one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Whoever observes the day, observes it for the Lord. Also whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while whoever abstains, abstains for the Lord and gives thanks to God.

None of us lives for oneself, and no one dies for oneself.

For if we live, we live for the Lord, and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Phillip, to think Paul here is referring to the 7th day Sabbath is misplaced. Paul in The earlier chapters of Romans lays out his position on the law clearly concluding that the law is not nullified but upheld. Here are a couple, Rom:3:31, 7:7-12.
To confuse the many other days that were considered to be kept with the 7th day Sabbath is a gross misjudgment of Paul’s intent. Paul here is addressing the various preferences re food and other holy days that some were insisting needed to be kept.
It has nothing to do with being indifferent to the 4th Commandment.
Paul does not present his thesis regarding the law in Romans only the nullify it or be indifferent to it.

The context is judgment of others re issues of minor importance and not licence to break God’s Commandments.

To violate context is to misunderstand intent. To misunderstand intent is to muddle the message. To muddle the message is to justify sin with sin being defined by the Law and not by how you feel, not by human logic, in fact, by nothing else.

 

[Philip James]

Phillip, to think Paul here is referring to the 7th day Sabbath is misplaced. Paul in The earlier chapters of Romans lays out his position on the law clearly concluding that the law is not nullified but upheld. Here are a couple, Rom:3:31, 7:7-12.
To confuse the many other days that were considered to be kept with the 7th day Sabbath is a gross misjudgment of Paul’s intent. Paul here is addressing the various preferences re food and other holy days that some were insisting needed to be kept.
It has nothing to do with being indifferent to the 4th Commandment.
Paul does not present his thesis regarding the law in Romans only the nullify it or be indifferent to it.

The context is judgment of others re issues of minor importance and not licence to break God’s Commandments.

To violate context is to misunderstand intent. To misunderstand intent is to muddle the message.

If we are in the new creation, every day is holy! I glorify God in all that i do , every day, whether resting or working because it is not I, but Christ who works through me...
Do you single out a day to honour thr Lord? Well Alleluia!

Peace!

 

[Enoch111]

The expression in scripture ‘The Lords day’ you have equated with Sunday. The scripture does not equate the Lords Day with Sunday.

What makes you think it does not? In Scripture it is called "the first day of the week". Now please note:

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. (Acts 20:7)
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. (1 Cor 16:1,2)

Then we have this written testimony from Justin Martyr in the second century:
“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the overseer verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the overseer in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the overseer, who provides for the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.”

–Justin Martyr, 1 Apol. LXVII in Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, Vol. 1, Ed. A. Cleveland Coxe (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2001), 186.

 

[Truth]

With the recent spate of disagreement and debate between Catholics and Protestants, I thought I would venture into new territory. Something that doctrinally, they agree on. Sunday sacredness. The following is an abridged catechism from the 17th century, the full version of which was fully accepted with the church as reflecting accurately the teachings of the Council of Trent.

"QUESTION: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
"ANSWER: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.

"QUESTION: How prove you that?
"ANSWER: Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power."--Henry Tuberville, D. D., "An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine"

The author of the Baptist Manual, Dr. Edward Hiscox, agrees with the above...quote from an address to a New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday.... It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week.... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism !

You are on the edge, wide is the path to destruction, narrow is the path to Life, being said I know that the Original Sabbath is still and will always be the Day we Keep. Sol Invictrus Mithra! the venerable day of the sun, Constantine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[quietthinker]

What makes you think it does not? In Scripture it is called "the first day of the week". Now please note:

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. (Acts 20:7)
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. (1 Cor 16:1,2)

Then we have this written testimony from Justin Martyr in the second century:
“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the overseer verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.

Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the overseer in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the overseer, who provides for the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.”

–Justin Martyr, 1 Apol. LXVII in Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, Vol. 1, Ed. A. Cleveland Coxe (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2001), 186.

So what if they came together to break bread or collect money on the first day of the week. It doesn’t change the commandment! They are able to break bread on any day of the week and in regards to collecting money, it is totally in order too do this on the first day so that it wasn’t done on the seventh day.

Should we also apply your logic to justifying adultery because the other woman or man had a difference with their spouse and has left home???

I also see you are attempting to bring in the sayings of others outside of the canon of scripture. This doesn’t wash.

 

[Truth]

So what if they came together to break bread or collect money on the first day of the week. It doesn’t change the commandment! They are able to break bread on any day of the week and in regards to collecting money, it is totally in order too do this on the first day so that it wasn’t done on the seventh day.

Should we also apply your logic to justifying adultery because the other woman or man had a difference with their spouse and has left home???

I also see you are attempting to bring in the sayings of others outside of the canon of scripture. This doesn’t wash.

Jesus said!! as often as you do this, do this in remembrance of Me. Jew's blessed God every Sabbath for Bread! and Broke Bread, and and then bless God for the Fruit of the Vine, Every Sabbath from the time that the Priest Meliczedik brought bread and wine to Abraham, where do you think this come's from, Yes we rest in Our Savior and every Sabbath we remember, that He is the Bread of Life [Manna] and wine His [Blood] of His sacrifice. Praise Ya Ho Vah! Creator of Heaven and Earth, and Give Thank's to Our Savior, our High Priest!

 

[Enoch111]

I also see you are attempting to bring in the sayings of others outside of the canon of scripture. This doesn’t wash.

Yes it does. The testimony of eye-witnesses counts for a great deal. That was from the second century, long before the Catholic Church was established. And that was not "a saying" but a report by Justin on how Christian churches were worshiping on the Lord's Day.

You have tried to dismiss what is in Scripture with a "so what". However, every word is for our instruction, and Paul made it crystal clear that sabbath days were mere shadows. The reality is Christ, and we enter into His Sabbath by faith. Thus Christians observed the Lord's Supper (the Breaking of Bread) on the Lord's Day and at the Lord's Table.

And every conservative Protestant commentator is in agreement that the Lord's Day is indeed the first day of the week, NOT the sabbath as you have mistakenly suggested.

Revelation 1:10

3. The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice.

4.The frame that his soul was in at this time: He was in the Spirit. He was not only in a rapture when he received the vision, but before he received it; he was in a serious, heavenly, spiritual frame, under the blessed gracious influences of the Spirit of God. God usually prepares the souls of his people for uncommon manifestations of himself, by the quickening sanctifying influences of his good Spirit. Those who would enjoy communion with God on the Lord’s day must endeavour to abstract their thoughts and affections from flesh and fleshly things, and be wholly taken up with things of a spiritual nature.

Matthew Henry

 

[quietthinker]

Yes it does. The testimony of eye-witnesses counts for a great deal. That was from the second century, long before the Catholic Church was established. And that was not "a saying" but a report by Justin on how Christian churches were worshiping on the Lord's Day.

You have tried to dismiss what is in Scripture with a "so what". However, every word is for our instruction, and Paul made it crystal clear that sabbath days were mere shadows. The reality is Christ, and we enter into His Sabbath by faith. Thus Christians observed the Lord's Supper (the Breaking of Bread) on the Lord's Day and at the Lord's Table.

And every conservative Protestant commentator is in agreement that the Lord's Day is indeed the first day of the week, NOT the sabbath as you have mistakenly suggested.

Revelation 1:10

Matthew Henry

My friend, we will have to agree to disagree.
Once one starts to bring in extra canononical references to shore up ones position it becomes open slather for every man and his dog. It is unwise and unnecessary as the word of God has all we need to understand the path we are to walk.

 

[brakelite]

The aim of this discussion was to point out that leading Protestant and Catholic authorities actually did agree on something. I know that few would want to admit this, because in doing so would challenge their current practice. But what is it that leading Protestant and Catholic authorities agreed on?
They agreed that there is no foundation, basis, or justification in scripture, either OT or new, for any change in the observance of the 7th day Sabbath.
The reformers, and many Protestants today, charged the Catholic church with apostasy because they had been using tradition as the basis for doctrine and teaching. The council of Trent was called in order to defend these accusations. 'Sola Scriptura' was the rallying cry of Protestantism while continuing revelation through tradition was the basis for Catholicism. There were even among the Catholic delegates to the council many who thought to scrap tradition and revert to 'scripture alone so much so that a letter was sent to the Pope with that recommendation. The council debated these matters to a standstill, until the Archbishop of Reggio, came up with the solution.
He repeated the above truths, with the significant addition of the following. I quote: Such is the condition of the heretics of this age that on nothing do they rely more than that, under the pretense of the word of God, they overthrow the authority of the church; as though the church, His body, could be opposed to the word of Christ, or the head to the body. On the contrary, the authority of the church, then, is illustrated most clearly by the Scriptures; for while on the one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, [col. 530] offers them to us to be read, in doubtful matters explains them faithfully, and condemns whatever is contrary to them; on the other hand, the legal precepts in the Scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day.
Those Catholic delegates who were seeking scripture alone, surrendered. Even the Protestants had no legs to stand on, for their own Augsburg Confession also declared that the change from Sabbath to Sunday was solely accomplished on the basis of church authority, and not on any instruction from the word of God. While they claimed scripture as being the basis for the abolition of the Sabbath, they declared the church the source for deciding on Sunday. Yet many more modern Protestant theologians have sentiments similar to the following...
"Sunday (Dies Sotis, of the Roman calendar, 'day of the sun,' because dedicated to the sun), the first day of the week, was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship. The 'sun' of Latin adoration they interpreted as the 'Sun of Righteousness.' ... No regulations for its observance are laid down in the New Testament, nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined."--Schaff Herzog, Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, 1891 Edition, Vol. IV
The more modern practice of Christians (both Protestant and Catholic) to attempt to find in the NT instruction or even precedent in observing the first day of the week is circumstantial evidence at best...and desperation at worst. The best they can offer is a record of some activities being conducted on the first day, by a variety of people and a variety of purpose, none of which could possibly constitute a divinely inspired or sourced change to the divine laws. In this vain and empty pursuit to establish divine authority for the change, todays churches are in agreement.

 

[Marymog]

With the recent spate of disagreement and debate between Catholics and Protestants, I thought I would venture into new territory. Something that doctrinally, they agree on. Sunday sacredness. The following is an abridged catechism from the 17th century, the full version of which was fully accepted with the church as reflecting accurately the teachings of the Council of Trent.

"QUESTION: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
"ANSWER: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.

"QUESTION: How prove you that?
"ANSWER: Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power."--Henry Tuberville, D. D., "An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine"

The author of the Baptist Manual, Dr. Edward Hiscox, agrees with the above...quote from an address to a New York ministers' conference held Nov. 13, 1893.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday.... It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week.... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.

"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism !

Post #3 and #8 from @Enoch111 are a good summary of Scripture and our Christian history.

I would add that passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that even during New Testament times the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day (Sunday) instead.

You alluded to early Christians observing Sunday as the Sabbath. Do you know how early that was?? If you read the Didache, written around 70AD and Pseudo-Barnabas written around 80AD you will see that Sunday Sabbath was practiced while the Apostle John was still alive and the teachings of the other Apostles was still fresh and ringing in the ears of the early Christians.

So now the question is do we follow the traditions of men, who started preaching Saturday Sabbath for Christians in the mid 1800's, or do we follow Scripture and the well documented history of Christianity from the time of Christ?

Respectfully....Mary