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Featured Prove the Trinity wrong challenge.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Dave L, Oct 26, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    This is one of the clearest statements on the trinity doctrine. See if you can spot errors correcting them with scripture.

    THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION

    CHAPTER III
    Of God, His Unity and Trinity

    GOD IS ONE. We believe and teach that God is one in essence or nature, subsisting in himself, all sufficient in himself, invisible, incorporeal, immense, eternal, Creator of all things both visible and invisible, the greatest good, living, quickening and preserving all things, omnipotent and supremely wise, kind and merciful, just and true. Truly we detest many gods because it is expressly written: “The Lord your God is one Lord” (Deut.6:4). “I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:2-3). “I am the Lord, and there is no other god besides me. Am I not the Lord, and there is no other God beside me? A righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me” (Isa. 45:5, 21). “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness” (Ex. 34:6).

    GOD IS THREE. Notwithstanding we believe and teach that the same immense, one and indivisible God is in person inseparably and without confusion distinguished as Father, Son and Holy Spirit so, as the Father has begotten the Son from eternity, the Son is begotten by an ineffable generation, and the holy Spirit truly proceeds from them both, and the same from eternity and is to be worshipped with both.

    Thus there are not three gods, but three persons, cosubstantial, coeternal, and coequal; distinct with respect to hypostases, and with respect to order, the one preceding the other yet without any inequality. For according to the nature or essence they are so joined together that they are one God, and the divine nature is common to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    For Scripture has delivered to us a manifest distinction of persons, the angel saying, among other things, to the Blessed Virgin, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” (Luke 1:35). And also in the baptism of Christ a voice is heard from heaven concerning Christ, saying, “This is my beloved Son” (Mat. 3:17). The Holy Spirit also appeared in the form of a dove (John 1:32). And when the Lord himself commanded the apostles to baptize, he commanded them to baptize “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19). Elsewhere in the Gospel he said: “The Father will send the Holy Spirit in my name” (John 14:26), and again he said: “When the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me,” etc. (John 15:26). In short, we receive the Apostles’ Creed because it delivers to us the true faith.

    HERESIES. Therefore we condemn the Jews and Mohammedans, and all those who blaspheme that sacred and adorable Trinity. We also condemn all heresies and heretics who teach that the Son and Holy Spirit are God in name only, and also that there is something created and subservient, or subordinate to another in the Trinity, and that there is something unequal in it, a greater or a less, something corporeal or corporeally conceived, something different with respect to character or will, something mixed or solitary, as if the Son and Holy Spirit were the affections and properties of one God the Father, as the Monarchians, Novatians, Praxeas, Patripassians, Sabellius, Paul of Samosata, Aetius, Macedonius, Anthropomorphites, Arius, and such like, have thought.



    Various authors. (n.d.). THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION Trinity.
     
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  2. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    KJV 1 Corinthians 15
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    KJV 1 Corinthians 8
    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
     
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  3. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority--not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support.” EGW
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    What do you think this proves?
     
  5. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    On the subject of the establishment of creeds in order to define the nature of God, A.T.Jones, in 1897 wrote...“ It could not possibly be otherwise [than Athanasius admitted], because it was an attempt of the finite to measure, to analyse, and eventually to dissect, the Infinite. It was an attempt to make the human superior to the Divine. God is infinite. No finite mind can comprehend Him as He actually is. Christ is the word—the expression of the thought —of God; and none but He knows the depth of the meaning of that word. "He had a name written that no man knew but He Himself; . . . and His name is called the Word of God."
     
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  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    This disproves nothing. It's opinion only.
     
  7. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I believe it to be self evident. The Son is in some sense subordinate to His Father. The Father is first in rank. Thus the co-equal nature of the Trinitarian creed is suspect.
     
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  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Because this is a man -made doctrinal statement...it will have flaws.

    The idea that the Father and the Son are co-equal is disproved by the statement of Jesus that says...

    John 14:28 28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
     
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  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    See if you can spot and correct them.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have separate rolls. Just as people do, but people are still people.
     
  11. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Any attempt to try nailing down a mystery as deep as the nature of God in a simple formula that men can grasp...is flawed at the outset. You can't catch the wind in a box.

    So I am against the very idea of attempting this.

    We know that both Jesus and the Father are the Jehovah in the OT. We know that God is both in one place AND everywhere simultaneously. No one can explain that.

    What or who is the Holy Spirit? How can thr Spirit be a person if that Person is in every believer? Would this not be an extension of God...or Jesus?

    And angels? These have a direct connection to God so that their presence is the same as God's presence. How is that explained?

    etc...
     
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  12. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    So the creed is right and you are wrong saying it is flawed without offering any proof?
     
  13. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Here is a creed that is actually biblical...God is love! (also a consuming fire)
     
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  14. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    It is one of my favorites on the trinity.
     
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    "You shall know them by their creeds"

    Where in the bible does it say to formulate a creed?

    And how do you know how much deviation from a certain creed is required for a person to be excommunicated or burned at the stake?

    I would think we have progressed a little beyond formulas.
     
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  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    “Whosoever therefore shall confess [confession/creed] me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:32)
     
  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The living Jesus....not a dead creed.
     
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  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Is your bible dead? How about the scriptures in the creeds?
     
  19. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    My bible is dead. No pulse. But God is living. We are to go to Him in a new and living way...not by the oldness of the letter but by the new life in the Spirit.
     
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  20. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Really?
     
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