Purgatory - A Catholic's Understanding

[Mungo]

This will take several posts. Please hold off commenting until I have finished (I'll indicate that).

Part 1 - What it is

Purgatory
“early 13c., from M.L. purgatorium (St. Bernard, early 12c.), from L.L., "means of cleansing," prop. neut. of purgatorius (adj.) "purging, cleansing," from L. purgare (see purge).”
(Online Etymology Dictionary).

Purgatory is about cleansing and purification

Catholic belief
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church para 1030)

This belief in a cleansing and purification after death is not just a Catholic one but is common to Judaism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism, though the form and name may be different.

Judaism
“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.” (http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)

The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state. (PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com)

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.

Orthodoxy
Some Othodox teach Aerial Toll-Houses regarding the souls journey after its departure from the body after death.
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, (St. Mark of Ephesus)
(Aerial Toll-Houses - OrthodoxWiki)

St. Mark of Ephesus was the main spokesman and theologian for the Orthodox at the Council of Ferrara in 1438. He also wrote that “the souls of people who die with unforgiven minor sins will experience spiritual sufferings in the afterlife, which, however, are not divine punishments but self-inflicted consequences of these sins”

Protestantism (but see note below)
Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)

“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms)

“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church)
Covenant Theology: Glorification (Part 1)

Note:- I post this about Protestantism in the thread Purgatory True of False and TEXBOW responded:
My understanding is that the majority of Protestants who believe in Glorification understands that the process ends at death. That the Sanctification or Glorification is a maturing in Christ while on earth before death.
This leaves open the question- what happens if a soul is not fully sanctified and Glorified be before he/she dies?

 

[Mungo]

Part 2 - Scriptural support

The basic scriptural argument for this purification is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)

3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)

5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is.

In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

These people were all dead, but they had not been made perfect. They had not received what was promised (heaven).
Then he writes:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1). These faithful people of the Old Testament are now witnessing our struggles. This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect

And he confirms this later in the chapter.
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
These just men were not perfect when they died but they are now. This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men can be made perfect after death.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.
“The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” (CCC 1031)

 

[Mungo]

Part 3 Sanctification – becoming Holy
Purgatory is about becoming perfectly holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin. The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.” (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
“But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.” (2Pet 3:13-14)

“Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.” (1Jn 3:2-3)

“But he gives more grace; therefore it says, ‘God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.’ Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.” (Jas 4:6-10)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.


Perfecting Love

St. Paul writes:
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. (Col 3:12-14)

Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. “So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”. (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else; indeed love is “the bond of perfection”. All else besides love; that which detracts from love; that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to “cover up” such things, they must be expunged, burnt out by the refiners fire (Mal 3:2).

As Paul says: “Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander be put away from you, with all malice” (Eph 4:31).

“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God’s discipline.
“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” (Heb 12:7-11).

“Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them.” (Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and “bad attitudes” are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God’s mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy. Without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - "the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14) - at least most of us couldn’t

 

[Mungo]

Part 4 - Attachments
Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.
16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.

Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.

The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.

The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)

Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.


The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

“[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.” (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

Part 5 - Cleansing Fire

Catholic belief:
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. ….. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. (CCC 1031)

Scripture speaks of going through fire:
“thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire [i.e. purgatory] and through water [i.e. baptism]; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.[ i.e. heaven]”. (Psalm 66:12)

“when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning [purgatory].” (Isaiah 4,4)

1Cor 3:10-17 is an important passage
10 “According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.”
11 “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
12 “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—“
13 “each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.”
14 “If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.”
15 “If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”
16 “Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?”
17 “If any one destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you are.”

In verses 10-13 Paul says that when we die our work will be judged. That work is both our good works and our bad works (sins) and that there will be reward or punishment according to these works.

Verse 14 is someone whose work stands. These are the good works, and those with only good works will go straight to heaven.

Verse 15 is someone whose works are burnt up (because they are bad) but the person themselves will be saved. The bad works (sins) were not serious enough to cut themselves off from God.

Verses 16-17 describe someone whose works are so bad that they have destroyed the temple where God dwells (their souls) and cut themselves off from God. God will destroy the person.

Now consider the second case (vs 15)

Someone can suffer loss as though fire but still be saved. There is something other than heaven or hell through which we can pass which will purify us (burn out our sins).

There are other texts that speak of this purifying fire:
“But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.” (Mal 3:2-3)

“In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1Pet 1:6-7)

 

[Mungo]

Part 6 - Other points

There is some punishment remaining after sins have been forgiven
David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." And Nathan said to David, "The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died." (2 Sam 12:13-18)
God forgave David’s sin but even after he was forgiven there was still punishment for his sin.

There is forgiveness of sin after death.
“And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (Mt 12:32)
It implies there is forgiveness in the age to come.”
What is this age to come where we can be forgiven sin? Heaven, Hell – or somewhere else?

We must be fully righteous before we are fit for heaven.
“but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1Jn 1:7-9)
If we are not fully righteous when we die then there is a final purification before we are fit to enter heaven. This is what Jesus won for us by the shedding of his blood.

There are also passages that make no sense in a heaven or hell only theology
“My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.” (Jas 5:19-20)

“Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.” (1Pet 4:8)

More Scriptural Points for Purgatory

Point 1
“And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating.” (Lk 12:42-48)

Where will some be beaten heavily and some lightly when Jesus returns? Not heaven because we aren’t beaten there. Not hell because the Master won’t be in hell.


Point 2 We must be fully holy and righteousness to be in the presence of God.
O Lord, who shall sojourn in thy tent? Who shall dwell on thy holy hill?
He who walks blamelessly, and does what is right, and speaks truth from his heart;
who does not slander with his tongue, and does no evil to his friend,
nor takes up a reproach against his neighbour; in whose eyes a reprobate is despised, but who honours those who fear the Lord;
who swears to his own hurt and does not change; who does not put out his money at interest, and does not take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things shall never be moved. (Ps 15)

Point 3
2 Macc. 12:44-45 is about atoning for the sins of the dead.

Point 4
Take Jesus’ parable of the man who owed a huge debt (Mt 18:23-34). At the end he says: “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt”
There is an implication that when the debt was paid he would be released. Now where was the man until he paid the debt? Not in Hell because you cannot get out of there. Not in heaven because there are no torturers in heaven. This is taken as a parable about forgiveness, but also about Purgatory.

OK. That's it. Any comments?

 

[bbyrd009]

ah, we’re not in Kansas anymore i guess huh

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Jesus payed the debt, so I can do what ever I like, if I just say that I believe Jesus, that's all you have to do to go to heaven, so when I get up their and if Peter gets in my way at the gates I will have to bash him. I am coming in ! Jesus payed the debt so even the Devil himself can go to Heaven.
The Devil himself was talking to Jesus, so he knew Jesus in fact, so the Devil himself is going to Heaven ? Jesus payed the debt bro !
All get in right, as wide is the way for all shall find it.

 

[Wrangler]

Catholic belief
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
(Catechism of the Catholic Church para 1030)

Thanks for the thread Mungo.

Father Mike's concise video on purgatory pointed out that purgatory is for us, not for God. It is to deal with our temporal affects of sin, not our eternal salvation, which is assured through Christ.

The analogy he uses is that we are invited to a great feast with all manner of pomp and circumstance but we arrive in rags and feel out of place due to our dirtiness. Purgatory gives us a chance to clean ourselves up before celebrating with everyone. IMO, it is an effective analogy.


What You Should Know About Purgatory - YouTube

 

[Wrangler]

1Cor 3:10-17 is an important passage

Indeed. Not sure how anyone can read v13 and concluded there is NOT some kind of purification process. I like how you went through the different belief systems and how they have the same idea but use different words. Thanks again for starting this thread!

1 Corinthians 3:13
The Voice
13 the quality of each person’s work will be revealed in time as it is tested by fire.

 

[ScottA]

Part 2 - Scriptural support

The basic scriptural argument for this purification is as follows:
1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
“…but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Mt 5:48)
2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
“But nothing unclean will enter it” [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)

3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
“Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12;14)

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
“When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.” (Ti 3:4-7)

5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
“Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.” (2Cor 7:1)

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is.

In Hebrews 11 the writer describes the faith of many of those in the Old Testament, men and women, from Abel onwards. At the end he writes:
"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

These people were all dead, but they had not been made perfect. They had not received what was promised (heaven).
Then he writes:
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us" (12:1). These faithful people of the Old Testament are now witnessing our struggles. This can only be from heaven. But you have to be perfect to be in heaven. So those that were not perfect must have been made perfect

And he confirms this later in the chapter.
“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect” (Heb 12:22-23)
These just men were not perfect when they died but they are now. This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men can be made perfect after death.

God in his mercy has provided a final purification process whereby we are made fit to enter his presence.

Catholics call this process Purgatory.
“The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.” (CCC 1031)

None of the scriptures that you have quoted tell of more than one salvation by God via two folds only, not three.

The idea of Purgatory simply stems from a lack of understanding the one salvation plan of God, and his appointment "for men to die once." Even worse, it is built upon the illusion of time as a law of God (as it is only in the world), rather than time being a mere creation.

Time, (which the Purgatory belief requires) is rather incremental revelation from God--nothing more, a godly form of media ("as it is written").

 

[Taken]

None of the scriptures that you have quoted tell of more than one salvation by God via two folds only, not three.

The idea of Purgatory simply stems from a lack of understanding the one salvation plan of God, and his appointment "for men to die once." Even worse, it is built upon the illusion of time as a law of God (as it is only in the world), rather than time being a mere creation.

Time, (which the Purgatory belief requires) is rather incremental revelation from God--nothing more, a godly form of media ("as it is written").

Matt 3
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

1 Cor 6:
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Seems to me, the Lords Baptism (IF received) already “purifies”, and “sanctifies” the Converted “IN” Christ.

So, “men whose souls are waiting” to become saved, become “purified with fire”, and become “sanctified”, become “spirit quickened”, become “Bodily risen in glory”....
Are not the Same, who ARE “IN” Christ, who participate in Christ’s millennial Kingdom.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Pythagorean12]

Baptism with fire isn't supporting Purgatory.
Remember the tongues of fire that appeared above the heads of the Apostles at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was received?

Too it can be a reference to the fates of those in Christ, Baptized by water, and those who die in their sins, baptized by fire.

"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38)

Luke 3

 

[Mungo]

None of the scriptures that you have quoted tell of more than one salvation by God via two folds only, not three.

The idea of Purgatory simply stems from a lack of understanding the one salvation plan of God, and his appointment "for men to die once." Even worse, it is built upon the illusion of time as a law of God (as it is only in the world), rather than time being a mere creation.

Time, (which the Purgatory belief requires) is rather incremental revelation from God--nothing more, a godly form of media ("as it is written").

I don't mean to be rude but I can't understand what you are saying here.

 

[Enoch111]

Not sure how anyone can read v13 and concluded there is NOT some kind of purification process.

Let's take a close look at this verse and see that it has absolutely nothing to do with a so-called "Purgatory".

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1. We do not find just "every man" but "every man's WORK" repeated twice.

2. So this is clearly speaking about the evaluation or assessment of the works (or deeds) of Christians. It is a given that these are the "good works" which God demands from those who are saved (not to maintain their salvation, but to show their love for Christ -- Eph 2:10).

3. It should also be clear that "fire" is being used metaphorically. This is the fiery judgment of the fiery eyes of Christ who EXAMINES the quality of the work and decides whether it is worthless (wood, hay, stubble) or valuable (gold, silver, precious stones).

4. This judgment is in order to give rewards and/or crowns to Christians. Some will receive many rewards, while others may not receive any. Some may receive crowns while others many not.

Now how can anyone in their right mind apply this Scripture to the purification of souls in Purgatory? Yet that is exactly what the Catholic Church has done to justify its absurd and unscriptural teaching, which allows the CC to essentially rob their adherents, so that souls can be prayed "out" of Purgatory. A scheme and a scam through "indulgences". Ironically, Luther did not reject Purgatory as such in his 95 Theses. Just the abuse of indulgences.

 

[Taken]

Let's take a close look at this verse and see that it has absolutely nothing to do with a so-called "Purgatory".

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1. We do not find just "every man" but "every man's WORK" repeated twice.

2. So this is clearly speaking about the evaluation or assessment of the works (or deeds) of Christians. It is a given that these are the "good works" which God demands from those who are saved (not to maintain their salvation, but to show their love for Christ -- Eph 2:10).

Agree.
“Works” of a man, IS NOT HOW a man “becomes” SAVED.
“Works” of a man, IS NOT HOW a SAVED man “remains” SAVED.
“Works” of ALL men, shall BE JUDGED, and “REWARDED” by God, (according to whatever “Works” they did.)
“ANY Works of ANY Man”, that DID NOT Glorify God...SHALL BE BURNED, turned to rubble and ash and forgotten....

Physically DEAD men, know nothing, do nothing. Their opportunity to DO ANY WORKS to glorify God, has Ceased.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Let's take a close look at this verse and see that it has absolutely nothing to do with a so-called "Purgatory".

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Now how can anyone in their right mind apply this Scripture to the purification of souls in Purgatory? Yet that is exactly what the Catholic Church has done to justify its absurd and unscriptural teaching, which allows the CC to essentially rob their adherents, so that souls can be prayed "out" of Purgatory. A scheme and a scam through "indulgences". Ironically, Luther did not reject Purgatory as such in his 95 Theses. Just the abuse of indulgences.

Agree.
Every individual natural born “body” is given a “soul” with Gods breath of Life.
The “body’s” created Life (Blood), becomes made Alive.
The “souls” given Life (Gods Breath), remains with and in the body, UNTIL the body’s natural life (Blood) stops maintaining the Body’s Life.
The “living soul” Departs the dying Body.

IF the “living soul”, was Divided FROM (against, disbelieving, advocating against) God, while IN the mans Body....that DIVISION remains when the mans Body Dies, and the Living soul Departs the dying body.

The DIVISION, becomes a SEPARATION, according to WHERE that living soul, departed out of a dying body....IS SENT...
Believing and with God....SENT (actually escorted) TO Heaven “WITH” God.
Disbelieving and without God...SENT TO Hell “WITHOUT” God.

Prayers, feelings, emotions, of the Living body’s Hoping they can PRAY souls SEPARATED from God, “out of Hell”.... is hokey!

Scripture EXPRESSLY reveals a “JUST” JUDGEMENT is based on the FACTS, not FEELINGS. And the FACTS are “recorded” in Gods own “RECORD BOOKS”.
No Excuses.

 

[Taken]

Mungo Quote:
Protestantism

(but see note below)
Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)

“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms)

“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church)
Covenant Theology:

We only need to HEAR, VERIFY, READ, STUDY, and HEAR, VERIFY, READ, STUDY continually “personally, individually”...
to KNOW exactly what the Word of God Reveals.

Jesus came and OFFERED “assured SALVATION NOW”, to ALL men.
Jesus REVEALED “exactly HOW” Any man could immediately RECEIVE “His Offering”.

John the (water) Baptizer, Foretold Prophetic Knowledge of Jesus’ Baptism.
Isaiah the Prophet, Foretold Prophetic Knowledge of John & Jesus.

Jesus’ Offering of Baptism...was Revealed By John.
Luke 3:
[16] John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Any man, (Jew, Gentile, or by whatever “religious” tag they wear);
WHO has accepted Jesus’ Offering, According to His WAY, to Receive His Offering.... ARE “made” WHOLE....body, soul, spirit.

Not a secret...earthly EYES are limited to SEEING earthly things.
Earthly EYES, do not SEE, their “souls”, do not SEE, their “spirits”, do not SEE their “glorified” bodies.

A man WHO has Accepted Jesus’ Offering....DOES NOT WAIT for their soul to BE saved, their spirit to BE born again, their body to BE glorified....its a DONE DEAL, by the Works and Power of God!
* An earthly man, simply WAITS TO SEE, the “MANIFESTATION” OF the Lord Gods Works IN THEM.
* An earthly man, SHALL SEE the “manifestation” OF the Lord Gods Works IN THEM.......on the day, that mans DEAD body “IS” raised “IN” Glory and his “EYES” are ABLE to “SEE” Gods “works that were already accomplished”.

A man WHO has Accepted Jesus’ Offering....is already BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit and Purified with Fire....AND KEPT “whole”, body, soul, spirit...
Expressly BY the “indwelling” Power of the Spirit of God.

Scripture teaches to PRAY “for” the saints.
Scripture teaches to PRAY “for” living men “lost” to the truth.
Scripture teaches to PRAY “for” living men “who know Not” the truth.
Where does Scripture teach to PRAY “to” the saints?
Where does Scripture teach to PRAY “for” departed souls “separated from God”...IN Hell?

Scripture gives a poignant LESSON about departed souls in Hell, separated From God.
Luke 16: 19-31

And the lingering question is: WHY would Catholics WANT departed living souls that REJECTED God, to be made SAVED?

 

[Wrangler]

Yet that is exactly what the Catholic Church has done to justify its absurd and unscriptural teaching

It’s so odd that when Scripture is referenced to support doctrine, those still call it unscriptural!

 

[Mungo]

Let's take a close look at this verse and see that it has absolutely nothing to do with a so-called "Purgatory".

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1. We do not find just "every man" but "every man's WORK" repeated twice.

2. So this is clearly speaking about the evaluation or assessment of the works (or deeds) of Christians. It is a given that these are the "good works" which God demands from those who are saved (not to maintain their salvation, but to show their love for Christ -- Eph 2:10).

3. It should also be clear that "fire" is being used metaphorically. This is the fiery judgment of the fiery eyes of Christ who EXAMINES the quality of the work and decides whether it is worthless (wood, hay, stubble) or valuable (gold, silver, precious stones).

4. This judgment is in order to give rewards and/or crowns to Christians. Some will receive many rewards, while others may not receive any. Some may receive crowns while others many not.

Now how can anyone in their right mind apply this Scripture to the purification of souls in Purgatory? Yet that is exactly what the Catholic Church has done to justify its absurd and unscriptural teaching, which allows the CC to essentially rob their adherents, so that souls can be prayed "out" of Purgatory. A scheme and a scam through "indulgences". Ironically, Luther did not reject Purgatory as such in his 95 Theses. Just the abuse of indulgences.

I explained this in post #4
In verses 10-13 Paul says that when we die our work will be judged. That work is both our good works and our bad works (sins) and that there will be reward or punishment according to these works.

Verse 14 is someone whose work stands. These are the good works, and those with only good works will go straight to heaven.

Verse 15 is someone whose works are burnt up (because they are bad) but the person themselves will be saved. The bad works (sins) were not serious enough to cut themselves off from God.

Verses 16-17 describe someone whose works are so bad that they have destroyed the temple where God dwells (their souls) and cut themselves off from God. God will destroy the person.

Now consider the second case (vs 15)
Someone can suffer loss as though fire but still be saved. There is something other than heaven or hell through which we can pass which will purify us (burn out our sins).

 

[ScottA]

I don't mean to be rude but I can't understand what you are saying here.

Just as time is an illusion, so is the notion of Purgatory.