- This thread will focus on the biblical grounds for the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Famed evangelical apologist C. S. Lewis embraced this doctrine and famously said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." The doctrine of Purgatory is tied with the Catholic obligation to pray for those in Purgatory and is therefore an extension in their doctrine of the Communion of Saints, to which the Apostles' Creed gives assent. So this thread will also discuss the biblical basis for this doctrine, as well as other NT texts that imply the possibility of ultimate release from Hell. Remember, I'm not Catholic, but am rather a Pentecostal United Methodist who has a lot of respect for Catholic distinctives, even for ones I ultimately disagree with. I find that Fundamentalists are generally clueless about how Catholic distinctives might be anchored to Scripture. This thread is intended to begin to remedy that and thereby to shed some light on why some Evangelicals in my town have left their churches to find God real in our local Catholic church. (1) Jesus' preferred term for Hell is Gehenna term that originally referred to a Jewish valley and trash dump outside Jerusalem. It is therefore relevant to investigate what this term means when "Gehenna" is applied to Hell. In ancient rabbinic usage, it can function as a term for temporary postmortem purgation or purification and therefore nicely overlaps with the later Catholic concept of Purgatory. Here are just 2 rabbinic texts that trace the rabbinic concept of Gehenna to the period from the 2nd century BC to the 2nd century AD: (a) The ancient Jewish sages apply a saying of rabbi Jose ben Johanan of Jerusalem from the 2nd century BC to a postmortem Gehenna (Mishnah Aboth 1:5). (b) Rabbi Akiba began his rabbinic studies around 75 AD and was born prior the Jewish revolt in 66-70 AD: He teaches that Gehenna is a postmortem Hell to which the unrighteous are confined for 12 months: “The judgment of the unrighteous in Gehenna shall endure 12 months (Misnah Eduyoth 2:10).” (2) Jesus' preference for this term rather than other available terms suggests that He embraces its basic concept. But this claim must be bolstered by Gospel texts in which Jesus implies that one's sojourn in Gehenna can be of temporary duration. Here are 3 relevant texts: (a) "That servant who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted shall be beaten with many stripes. But the one who did not know, but did what deserved a beating shall be beaten with few stripes. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required (Luke 12:47-48)." The application of the finite imagery "many stripes"/ "few stripes" implies limited duration and ultimate release. (b) "In anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay all his debt (Matthew 18:34). In the Parable of the 2 Debtors, the image of a debtor's prison is applied to Hell. Note that the unforgiving servant is not confined to life imprisonment; rather, the implication is that the debt can ultimately be paid, or perhaps expiated. (c) "Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on your way to court Truly I with Him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you will never get out until you have paid the last penny (Matthew 5:25-26)." Note the wording that implies the possibility of ultimate release from Gehenna. 7 points support this interpretation: (a) This saying makes no sense if taken literally: Jesus would be teaching his criminal disciple how to beat the rap, waiting until they walk to court with the accuser they have wronged! (b) Crucially, Jesus always reserves the solemn phrase "Truly I say tell you" for our relationship with God and never applies it to mundane daily issues. (c) In the Judaism of late antiquity "prison" is a common term for Hell. (d) The word "debt" (Aramaic: "hob") is a standard word for "sin" and is used that way in the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:4). (e) In the first 2 centuries, this saying is consistently spiritualized as opposed to taken literally as a reference to court litigation. (f) The same saying is inserted in an eschatological context in Luke 12:57-59, a fact that lends credibility to its application to a limited purgative stay in Gehenna. (g) This interpretation brings 5:25-26 in line with the similar imagery in 18:34. (3) "If the work is burned up, he [the worker whose service cannot survive close scrutiny] will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:15)." The meaning of the phrase "saved, yet so as by fire" cannot be reduced to "saved by the skin of his teeth" because its meaning is determined by the use of that phrase in first century Palestinian culture. The phrase is often rabbinically applied to the fate of Jews of mediocre spirituality whose works don't survive close scrutiny and therefore they are temporarily consigned to the purgative or purifying fires of Gehenna before gaining access to Heaven. [For references see Strack-Billerbeck 4,2: 1043-1049.] As a student of Rabbi Gamaliel, Paul no doubt learned the phrase from his earlier Pharisaic studies, embraced it, and applied it to the fate of Christians who build inadequately on Christ as the foundation of their faith.
Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
From what I recall, the doctrine of purgatory is in one of the books of Maccabees. And Hebrews 12:1 is the basis for praying to the saints. Personally, I do not believe in either.
P.S. I'm also sort of a Pentecostal United Methodist.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I will refute your claim in detail in due time. Why do Evangelicals feel the need to change the subject when they have no answer to God's Word? The present topic is Purgatory.
C. S. Lewis was rather inconsistent in his theology, and he had a lot of Catholic notions. So if he believed in Purgatory, it is not surprising. That does not mean it is a Bible doctrine. It simply means Lewis was confused about a lot of things.
As to praying to the saints and Mary, if you can go directly to God, why would you choose to go indirectly?
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.
The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1, 14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin or sins committed before salvation is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must, in order to be saved, pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins, then Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.got?
hope this helps !!!
Christophany: "The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it...fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins."
You forget that this all-sufficiency depends on our responding as required and you speak as if postbaptismal confession of sins and repentance are merely optional! You don't grasp the fact that in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness," so that we are saved by a faith-based way of being, not by just getting our ticket punched to heaven, regardless of how we live. Nor do you recognize the essential distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions for salvation. Faithfulness is not a sufficient condition for salvation because we are saved by grace. But it is a necessary condition (see eg. James 2:14; Matthew 25:41-45). If deeply flawed Christians die common sense and Scripture dictat that they might need postmortem purfication to be ready for Heaven without poisoning the atmosphere with their carnal conduct.
You also need to consider these 3 NT texts that nicely compliment the equivalent of Purgatory as taught by Jesus' image of Hell as a debtor's prison from which release is possible and Paul's teaching that apostate Christians can still be "saved, yet so as by fire," the image used by ancient rabbis to describe the purgative and purifying role of Gehenna:
(1) In a teaching included in the Catholic Apostles' Creed, Peter teaches that Jesus preached to the unrighteous dead from Noah's time. Peter focuses on Noah's time because he wants to stress the role of the Flood as a type of Baptism:
"He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also He made a proclamation to the spirits in prison (= Hades), who in former times did not obey...(1 Peter 3:19-20)."
The damned by implication have a chance to respond positively to this preaching and get saved. In 4:6 the phrase "the Gospel was preached" picks up this proclamation to deceased human spirits and generalizes it:
"For this is the reason the Gospel was preached even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does (4:6)."
(2) Later Catholics follow Paul's example of embracing prayers for deceased sinners in his ritual of proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead. The new Corinthian church is in mourning for deceased family members and friends who died before having a chance to hear Paul's Gospel. Paul accepts proxy baptisms as part of the process by which God is destined to become "all in all" (panta en pasin) or "everything to everyone:"
"...so that God might be everything to everyone"). Otherwise, (i. e. if God will not be everything to everyone), what will those people do who receive baptism (by proxy) in behalf of the (unrighteous) dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized in their behalf (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)."
(3) The Book of Revelation offers this structure of the afterlife process: first death--"first resurrection" after the millennium (20:5-6)--"second death" in the lake of fire" (20:6, 14; 21:8)--and by implication 2nd resurrection after the first. But John does not identify the 2nd resurrection. Its identity is implied by the declaration that the gates of the hovering New Jerusalem will remain eternally open: "Its gates will never be shut by day--and there is no night there (21:25)." The symbol of Heaven's eternally open gate implies traffic coming and going. But coming and going on what missions? Those "outside" the gates hold the answer:
"Outside [the gates] are the...fornicators, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15)."
Preaching missions outside the gates to these sinners provide the opportunity for them to hear the Gospel, repent, get saved and enter the gates. This is their 2nd resurrection out of torment. As evangelical author, C. S. Lewis famously puts it: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." This glorious prospect sheds light on John's vision of everyone in all creation--in heaven, on earth, and in Hades--worshiping God and Christ:
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth (i. e. in Hades)...singing, "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever (5:13)!""
They are not singing hymns of praise, only for some angel to pull a lever, so that they are sucked back down again to Hell!
The hymn in Philippians 2:6-11 shares the same glorious vision of salvation out of Hades:
"....so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (i. e. in Hades) and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10-11)."
What most Evangelicals don't get is the source of inspiration of this hymn in Isaiah 45:22-23: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth...To me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear." In other words, the Philippian hymn is inspired by God's invitation to universal salvation of the living and dead. The hymn's confession "Jesus Christ is Lord" is a saving confession (Romans 10:9-10) and cannot sincerely be uttered apart from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).
In my view, this vision does not necessarily mean universal salvation because there is no guarantee that all denizens of Hell will ultimately respond to the Gospel, but they will be given chances to respond after death.
After Revelation, the next 2 Christian apocalypses--the Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD) and Sibylline Oracles II:331-335 (150 AD) still preserve this glorious vision of the righteous dead praying for and receiving soul retrievals of their unsaved loved ones in Hell. Though these apocalypses are noncanonical, they nevertheless bear witness to the attitude expressed in the Book of Revelation. Hope this helps.
You forget that this all-sufficiency depends on our responding as required and you speak as if postbaptismal confession of sins and repentance are merely optional! You don't grasp the fact that in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness," so that we are saved by a faith-based way of being, not by just getting our ticket punched to heaven, regardless of how we live. Nor do you recognize the essential distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions for salvation. Faithfulness is not a sufficient condition for salvation because we are saved by grace. But it is a necessary condition (see eg. James 2:14; Matthew 25:41-45). If deeply flawed Christians die common sense and Scripture dictat that they might need postmortem purfication to be ready for Heaven without poisoning the atmosphere with their carnal conduct.
You also need to consider these 3 NT texts that nicely compliment the equivalent of Purgatory as taught by Jesus' image of Hell as a debtor's prison from which release is possible and Paul's teaching that apostate Christians can still be "saved, yet so as by fire," the image used by ancient rabbis to describe the purgative and purifying role of Gehenna:
(1) In a teaching included in the Catholic Apostles' Creed, Peter teaches that Jesus preached to the unrighteous dead from Noah's time. Peter focuses on Noah's time because he wants to stress the role of the Flood as a type of Baptism:
"He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also He made a proclamation to the spirits in prison (= Hades), who in former times did not obey...(1 Peter 3:19-20)."
The damned by implication have a chance to respond positively to this preaching and get saved. In 4:6 the phrase "the Gospel was preached" picks up this proclamation to deceased human spirits and generalizes it:
"For this is the reason the Gospel was preached even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does (4:6)."
(2) Later Catholics follow Paul's example of embracing prayers for deceased sinners in his ritual of proxy baptism for the unrighteous dead. The new Corinthian church is in mourning for deceased family members and friends who died before having a chance to hear Paul's Gospel. Paul accepts proxy baptisms as part of the process by which God is destined to become "all in all" (panta en pasin) or "everything to everyone:"
"...so that God might be everything to everyone"). Otherwise, (i. e. if God will not be everything to everyone), what will those people do who receive baptism (by proxy) in behalf of the (unrighteous) dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized in their behalf (1 Corinthians 15:28-29)."
(3) The Book of Revelation offers this structure of the afterlife process: first death--"first resurrection" after the millennium (20:5-6)--"second death" in the lake of fire" (20:6, 14; 21:8)--and by implication 2nd resurrection after the first. But John does not identify the 2nd resurrection. Its identity is implied by the declaration that the gates of the hovering New Jerusalem will remain eternally open: "Its gates will never be shut by day--and there is no night there (21:25)." The symbol of Heaven's eternally open gate implies traffic coming and going. But coming and going on what missions? Those "outside" the gates hold the answer:
"Outside [the gates] are the...fornicators, murderers, idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood (22:15)."
Preaching missions outside the gates to these sinners provide the opportunity for them to hear the Gospel, repent, get saved and enter the gates. This is their 2nd resurrection out of torment. As evangelical author, C. S. Lewis famously puts it: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." This glorious prospect sheds light on John's vision of everyone in all creation--in heaven, on earth, and in Hades--worshiping God and Christ:
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth (i. e. in Hades)...singing, "To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever (5:13)!""
They are not singing hymns of praise, only for some angel to pull a lever, so that they are sucked back down again to Hell!
The hymn in Philippians 2:6-11 shares the same glorious vision of salvation out of Hades:
"....so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (i. e. in Hades) and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10-11)."
What most Evangelicals don't get is the source of inspiration of this hymn in Isaiah 45:22-23: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth...To me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear." In other words, the Philippian hymn is inspired by God's invitation to universal salvation of the living and dead. The hymn's confession "Jesus Christ is Lord" is a saving confession (Romans 10:9-10) and cannot sincerely be uttered apart from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).
In my view, this vision does not necessarily mean universal salvation because there is no guarantee that all denizens of Hell will ultimately respond to the Gospel, but they will be given chances to respond after death.
After Revelation, the next 2 Christian apocalypses--the Apocalypse of Peter 14 (125 AD) and Sibylline Oracles II:331-335 (150 AD) still preserve this glorious vision of the righteous dead praying for and receiving soul retrievals of their unsaved loved ones in Hell. Though these apocalypses are noncanonical, they nevertheless bear witness to the attitude expressed in the Book of Revelation. Hope this helps.
Purgatory and Praying to Saints in Catholic Biblical Perspective
OP ^
A saint in the OT, is any man physically Living or who has physically died:
That was in Faithful Belief in God.
A saint in the NT, is any man physically Living or who has physically died:
That IS in Faithful Belief in God and Christ Jesus.
The "saints" are Earthy men, Who have Committed "their lives", unto the Lord God.
At no time Did The Lord God, Teach or Direct Earthly men to Pray TO saints...Dead or Alive!
A saint does not require a Title of sainthood, bestowed upon them by men.
It is God Himself who established their status;
And never gave THEM title added to their Name.
Before Jesus arrived on Earth, His Body Crucified, His Soul went TO Hell...
* Jesus revealed what was IN Hell.
***
A great FIXED gulf.
On one side......
* Saved Living Souls in Comfort.
On the other side.....
* unsaved Living souls in Torments.
Why?
Because as Scripture Teaches:
Jesus IS Before all things.
* Earthly men DO NOT Experience ANYTHING- until AFTER the Lord Experiences the event.
OT Saints "prayed" FOR the souls of the saints in Hell.
Prayed FOR the salvation of their souls?
No. Prayed for the Release of their souls, to go to Heaven.
In Effect- they were praying for their Messiah to arrive...Their Savior...
Well Their Messiah and Savior arrived.
His soul went to Hell.
When His Soul was lifted up and Returned to Heaven...
So Also did All the Saved Living souls waiting in Hell rise up to Heaven.
With that Accomplished:
There are No saints IN Hell.
As men souls become Saved, and (as Jesus provided for men's spirits to become Quickened)...when a "saint" (Converted IN Christ), man physically dies:
** his body Returns to the ground, a grave, (not Hell) , but a grave men dig and bury the body.
(It begins rotting, and ten years later it could be dug up and the decomposing remain seen)
** His Saved Living Soul Returns to God in Heaven.
** His Quickened Born Again spirit Returns to God in Heaven.
* And the waiting process begins for the Day their body shall be raised immortal and Glorified.
There Are:
* body's OF physically Dead saints buried.
* Living souls OF saints in Heaven.
* Living spirits OF saints in Heaven.
* Crucified body's OF saints living in Christ's body on Earth
* Living souls OF saints on Earth.
* Living spirits OF saints on Earth.
There are NOT:
* saints in hell
* saints ON Earth are supposed to Pray FOR one another, minister TO each other, minister TO the poor in spirit. Teach the poor in spirit.
Scripture Never Teaches to pray TO saints...
Not the saints in Heaven...Not the Saint ON Earth.
It may very well be the saints in Heaven service unto God, to bring all the prayers of saints before the Lord Gods Throne...
It is ludicrist to believe it is only saints in Heaven bringing "their" prayers, "that" Living saints ON Earth "have prayed TO THEM."
A "saint" on Earth has an "intercessory" to whom prayer "TO" God IN HIS Name...JESUS, is the the WAY a saint is taught to pray.
Never is it Taught to PRAY "TO" saints or "TO" angels as an intercessory or otherwise.
So are Catholics Praying "TO" saints IN Heaven?
Are Catholics praying "FOR" unsaved souls in Hell to Be Saved?
Glory to God,
Taken
OP ^
A saint in the OT, is any man physically Living or who has physically died:
That was in Faithful Belief in God.
A saint in the NT, is any man physically Living or who has physically died:
That IS in Faithful Belief in God and Christ Jesus.
The "saints" are Earthy men, Who have Committed "their lives", unto the Lord God.
At no time Did The Lord God, Teach or Direct Earthly men to Pray TO saints...Dead or Alive!
A saint does not require a Title of sainthood, bestowed upon them by men.
It is God Himself who established their status;
And never gave THEM title added to their Name.
Before Jesus arrived on Earth, His Body Crucified, His Soul went TO Hell...
* Jesus revealed what was IN Hell.
***
A great FIXED gulf.
On one side......
* Saved Living Souls in Comfort.
On the other side.....
* unsaved Living souls in Torments.
Why?
Because as Scripture Teaches:
Jesus IS Before all things.
* Earthly men DO NOT Experience ANYTHING- until AFTER the Lord Experiences the event.
OT Saints "prayed" FOR the souls of the saints in Hell.
Prayed FOR the salvation of their souls?
No. Prayed for the Release of their souls, to go to Heaven.
In Effect- they were praying for their Messiah to arrive...Their Savior...
Well Their Messiah and Savior arrived.
His soul went to Hell.
When His Soul was lifted up and Returned to Heaven...
So Also did All the Saved Living souls waiting in Hell rise up to Heaven.
With that Accomplished:
There are No saints IN Hell.
As men souls become Saved, and (as Jesus provided for men's spirits to become Quickened)...when a "saint" (Converted IN Christ), man physically dies:
** his body Returns to the ground, a grave, (not Hell) , but a grave men dig and bury the body.
(It begins rotting, and ten years later it could be dug up and the decomposing remain seen)
** His Saved Living Soul Returns to God in Heaven.
** His Quickened Born Again spirit Returns to God in Heaven.
* And the waiting process begins for the Day their body shall be raised immortal and Glorified.
There Are:
* body's OF physically Dead saints buried.
* Living souls OF saints in Heaven.
* Living spirits OF saints in Heaven.
* Crucified body's OF saints living in Christ's body on Earth
* Living souls OF saints on Earth.
* Living spirits OF saints on Earth.
There are NOT:
* saints in hell
* saints ON Earth are supposed to Pray FOR one another, minister TO each other, minister TO the poor in spirit. Teach the poor in spirit.
Scripture Never Teaches to pray TO saints...
Not the saints in Heaven...Not the Saint ON Earth.
It may very well be the saints in Heaven service unto God, to bring all the prayers of saints before the Lord Gods Throne...
It is ludicrist to believe it is only saints in Heaven bringing "their" prayers, "that" Living saints ON Earth "have prayed TO THEM."
A "saint" on Earth has an "intercessory" to whom prayer "TO" God IN HIS Name...JESUS, is the the WAY a saint is taught to pray.
Never is it Taught to PRAY "TO" saints or "TO" angels as an intercessory or otherwise.
So are Catholics Praying "TO" saints IN Heaven?
Are Catholics praying "FOR" unsaved souls in Hell to Be Saved?
Glory to God,
Taken
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Another attempt of morphing pagan points of view in an attempt to make it fit into the biblical narrative.
The bible knows nothing of purgatory nor of praying to saints. These doctrines are not God inspired!
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
marksman: "I was hoping to read your post but as it was not set out in paragraphs I did not bother."
In other words, the long posts is way over your head.
quietthinker: "Another attempt of morphing pagan points of view in an attempt to make it fit into the biblical narrative."
You don't know what you're talking about, and so, you are incapable of documenting the so-called pagan elements in my post.
More seriously, as a nonscholar, you are oblivious to how Jesus and early Christianity adapt Jewish and pagan motifs to God's revealed perspective. As we learn in seminary, God's Word lisps through the culture and language of contemporaries of biblical figures.
quietthinker: "The bible knows nothing of purgatory nor of praying to saints."
In the case of Purgatory, I just demonstrated that it does and you are incapable of critical engagement with the details of the argument. So you understandably seek self-justification through unsubstantiated Fundamentalist pontification. In case you haven't noticed, I haven't even made the case for praying to saints.
quietthinker: "These doctrines are not God inspired!"
Without realizing it, you are saying that Jesus, Paul, and Peter are not God-inspired. Just occasionally, take a stroll outside your myopic Fundamentalist thought Ghetto to enter the big bad world of modern biblical scholarship and, just for a moment, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry.
In other words, the long posts is way over your head.
quietthinker: "Another attempt of morphing pagan points of view in an attempt to make it fit into the biblical narrative."
You don't know what you're talking about, and so, you are incapable of documenting the so-called pagan elements in my post.
More seriously, as a nonscholar, you are oblivious to how Jesus and early Christianity adapt Jewish and pagan motifs to God's revealed perspective. As we learn in seminary, God's Word lisps through the culture and language of contemporaries of biblical figures.
quietthinker: "The bible knows nothing of purgatory nor of praying to saints."
In the case of Purgatory, I just demonstrated that it does and you are incapable of critical engagement with the details of the argument. So you understandably seek self-justification through unsubstantiated Fundamentalist pontification. In case you haven't noticed, I haven't even made the case for praying to saints.
quietthinker: "These doctrines are not God inspired!"
Without realizing it, you are saying that Jesus, Paul, and Peter are not God-inspired. Just occasionally, take a stroll outside your myopic Fundamentalist thought Ghetto to enter the big bad world of modern biblical scholarship and, just for a moment, breathe the fresh air of honest and open inquiry.
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Paying to the Saints ?
Or is it truly that one is praying for the Saints to help you understand in a way that you can come to fathom some things ?
Purgatory ? if one thinks you are going directly to Heaven or condemned to Hell when you die, what about all them who were not truly born again and only had faith in Jesus Christ that were not against him ?
So we do have them who believe in Jesus in fact, but they are not for him ? The Devil himself was as such and in fact everyone regardless does understand God is real, but they just do not want to abide because ignorance is bliss to such a fool.
So then we come to one who has a little faith like most Christians, but such do not posses faith that can move mountains = born again ? well they of little faith believe as much as they can and are not working against Jesus, surely their Soul go to Purgatory for a time as we know that even Holy Moses and the Prophets went to purgatory and Jesus Christ came for them to take them to Heaven.
So ok Joh Blow has a chance of going to Heaven if he goes to purgatory because he does have faith. but if there is no such a thing, not to mention that we know such is a fact because the Bible tells us Jesus came for them. but if one claims their is no such place then they are condemning them who don't cut the grade as to be in Hell, now their is a problem with such as that, because such a one may not deserve hell as such was not a bad person, never killed anyone or ripped off anyone or practised malice. not to mention that the Bible in forms us who are not worthy of Heaven, that's Gays in fact, people who idolise and so forth. now such people can not enter the Kingdom of God the Bibles says and fact is that such can not enter because they are of this world ? as Jesus Christ says that he is not of this world = under such a power of Sinfulness delusions, as such power of deceptions clouding there minds.
So is it such a bad thing this purgatory ? why do people love to want to reject such a thing so much ? well purgatory is better place for the soul than Hell indeed. so why the great attack on such ?
I think that everyone goes to purgatory for a time to pay for their sins and that's Biblical that you will have to pay for such totally, no one can pay for you. but your Soul must be pure before it can go to Heaven, so you must truly repent and accept every wrong you did totally, on the other case are people fooling themselves claiming to go to Heaven as a un repented swine. and we all know that such can not enter even the Kingdom of God, so how do their Soul go to Heaven.
I am am happy to pay for my sins I do not fear purgatory. not to mention I do not boast to anyone that I am going to Heaven, but I am sure that I am not going to Hell lets say.
Or is it truly that one is praying for the Saints to help you understand in a way that you can come to fathom some things ?
Purgatory ? if one thinks you are going directly to Heaven or condemned to Hell when you die, what about all them who were not truly born again and only had faith in Jesus Christ that were not against him ?
So we do have them who believe in Jesus in fact, but they are not for him ? The Devil himself was as such and in fact everyone regardless does understand God is real, but they just do not want to abide because ignorance is bliss to such a fool.
So then we come to one who has a little faith like most Christians, but such do not posses faith that can move mountains = born again ? well they of little faith believe as much as they can and are not working against Jesus, surely their Soul go to Purgatory for a time as we know that even Holy Moses and the Prophets went to purgatory and Jesus Christ came for them to take them to Heaven.
So ok Joh Blow has a chance of going to Heaven if he goes to purgatory because he does have faith. but if there is no such a thing, not to mention that we know such is a fact because the Bible tells us Jesus came for them. but if one claims their is no such place then they are condemning them who don't cut the grade as to be in Hell, now their is a problem with such as that, because such a one may not deserve hell as such was not a bad person, never killed anyone or ripped off anyone or practised malice. not to mention that the Bible in forms us who are not worthy of Heaven, that's Gays in fact, people who idolise and so forth. now such people can not enter the Kingdom of God the Bibles says and fact is that such can not enter because they are of this world ? as Jesus Christ says that he is not of this world = under such a power of Sinfulness delusions, as such power of deceptions clouding there minds.
So is it such a bad thing this purgatory ? why do people love to want to reject such a thing so much ? well purgatory is better place for the soul than Hell indeed. so why the great attack on such ?
I think that everyone goes to purgatory for a time to pay for their sins and that's Biblical that you will have to pay for such totally, no one can pay for you. but your Soul must be pure before it can go to Heaven, so you must truly repent and accept every wrong you did totally, on the other case are people fooling themselves claiming to go to Heaven as a un repented swine. and we all know that such can not enter even the Kingdom of God, so how do their Soul go to Heaven.
I am am happy to pay for my sins I do not fear purgatory. not to mention I do not boast to anyone that I am going to Heaven, but I am sure that I am not going to Hell lets say.
Nowadays people will pressure into saying were are you going to heaven or hell ? but Bible states it's not for you to say, for if you say one does injury to Jesus Christ.
But one can say of their aspirations are and why they have such a faith. it's not because you have doubts, like morons claim, Oh why don't you state that you are going to Heaven ! as if such a statement is an insult to them, well no I am not just that ignorant and disrespectful of Jesus Christ in fact. be cause no one can claim for a fact as such is a worldly boast too men, but what about God ? are you going to boast to him ? no chance !
Yes I do have faith and believe that I am going to Heaven in myself, but I will not boast such ignorance to others, because such is ignorance to God disrespectful in deed, but to worldly men they can boast all they like till the cows come home, I understand where such ignorance comes from.
But one can say of their aspirations are and why they have such a faith. it's not because you have doubts, like morons claim, Oh why don't you state that you are going to Heaven ! as if such a statement is an insult to them, well no I am not just that ignorant and disrespectful of Jesus Christ in fact. be cause no one can claim for a fact as such is a worldly boast too men, but what about God ? are you going to boast to him ? no chance !
Yes I do have faith and believe that I am going to Heaven in myself, but I will not boast such ignorance to others, because such is ignorance to God disrespectful in deed, but to worldly men they can boast all they like till the cows come home, I understand where such ignorance comes from.
Now the Devil himself could say that he is going to Heaven ! and I would not be surprised that he would make such a claim in fact, because that bastard is not humble. such a one wants or demands you follow him, now Jesus Christ makes no such demands on you, you abide in Jesus because you know and love him and know his love is above all. the Devil does not love you at all he only uses you and creates deception of delusions for ones carnal mind, he is robing you of your Soul ! and everything that you truly are or should be.
Except that the unforgiving servant owes an inextricable amount of money; that he cannot possibly pay in his lifetime.
I don't believe that this is talking about Gehenna. I have looked at your reasons for believing it is and reject them. It is clearly talking about debtor's prison on earth.
In 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, those who have wood, hay, and stubble built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ will experience loss of reward and that is all.
Homosexuals can be redeemed (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, esp. v.11).
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The whole notion if Purgatory came straight from Hell.....I hope readers will take the time to investigate the details of Satan’s Favorite Fairy Tale.....It would be hilarious if not for the fact that the belief in it has sent millions Of Souls to Hell ( why turn to God if you can pay for your sins on your own? Sin up a storm.....be willing to withstand a thousand years or so Of torment and then be “ good to go!” )
I bet that Satan “ Still” rolls his eyes that ANYBODY could believe this Clap-Trap ! He must be thinking, “Wow, these Bible-Ignorant Fools will buy “ ANYTHING !”
Here’s a little peak at some of the asininity involved in the belief in Purgatory.......ya see,You were “ good enough” to merit Heaven and Jesus let’s you in......however , the Saints come up to you and convince you that you will feel better in the Long Run if you go back outside the gates and suffer some punishment for your sins......apparently the Punishment That Jesus endured on the Cross for All Of the Sins Of Mankind was pretty good, but it just wasn’t “ enough”—— you gotta be willing to take some of it too! Kinda be a “Co-Savior”..........and, after all, it’s for your “ own” good.......you’ll feel more Worthy in Eternity ....
What a “ Trampling on the Blood “ this is ! What a God - Damned , Satanic ploy to get blind fools into Hell......Satan giggles.....he can’t believe anybody bought this Hog Wash.......Anybody that buys into the Lie Of Purgatory is 100% clueless about Christianity and what Jesus accomplished at the Cross....That would include the esteemed C.S.Lewis......even the so-called “ intelligent” can be deceived by Satan , as he was......
I bet that Satan “ Still” rolls his eyes that ANYBODY could believe this Clap-Trap ! He must be thinking, “Wow, these Bible-Ignorant Fools will buy “ ANYTHING !”
Here’s a little peak at some of the asininity involved in the belief in Purgatory.......ya see,You were “ good enough” to merit Heaven and Jesus let’s you in......however , the Saints come up to you and convince you that you will feel better in the Long Run if you go back outside the gates and suffer some punishment for your sins......apparently the Punishment That Jesus endured on the Cross for All Of the Sins Of Mankind was pretty good, but it just wasn’t “ enough”—— you gotta be willing to take some of it too! Kinda be a “Co-Savior”..........and, after all, it’s for your “ own” good.......you’ll feel more Worthy in Eternity ....
What a “ Trampling on the Blood “ this is ! What a God - Damned , Satanic ploy to get blind fools into Hell......Satan giggles.....he can’t believe anybody bought this Hog Wash.......Anybody that buys into the Lie Of Purgatory is 100% clueless about Christianity and what Jesus accomplished at the Cross....That would include the esteemed C.S.Lewis......even the so-called “ intelligent” can be deceived by Satan , as he was......
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