Purgatory True of False
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Nope. Not buying that. Jesus said it was finished. Jesus didn't tell the thief that he would see him in Paradise after he got out of purgatory. I think purgatory is pure fiction and a scheme to scam money from those the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH worked so hard to prevent having their own Bible. How would the root of all evil "Money" play a role in a short stay in purgatory. Nonsense.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Seems that it means something more to you when Jesus said it was finished compared those who believe in purgatory.
Also, I am convinced there is a misplaced comma of what Jesus said to the thief in the cross.
I tell you today, I will see you in paradise.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
It's not easy to make the cut for purgatory because if a Catholic leaves this
life with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go
straight to Hell --it's a direct flight, so to speak --no stopover in a halfway
house.
_
It's not easy to make the cut for purgatory because if a Catholic leaves this
life with just one un-absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go
straight to Hell --it's a direct flight, so to speak --no stopover in a halfway
house.
_
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
In the distant past it was deemed nigh unto impossible to graduate from
purgatory because every new sin committed while there added time to the
penitent's sentence. So:
In the year 1520, Pope Leo X's Bull of Exsurge Domine was written to state,
along with some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but
of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final
happiness; viz: according to Leo X, the occupants of purgatory are unable to
sin; consequently, they are sinless and will not commit new sins while
undergoing purgatorial discipline and purification.
_
In the distant past it was deemed nigh unto impossible to graduate from
purgatory because every new sin committed while there added time to the
penitent's sentence. So:
In the year 1520, Pope Leo X's Bull of Exsurge Domine was written to state,
along with some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but
of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final
happiness; viz: according to Leo X, the occupants of purgatory are unable to
sin; consequently, they are sinless and will not commit new sins while
undergoing purgatorial discipline and purification.
_
I tell you today that I've heard someone say that before. Now seriously, does that really make sense? Why would Jesus need to tell him that he is telling him today? I think that is grasping a bit.
The Roman Catholic doctrine "goal post" keep moving through out history.
Hey folks! Hakuna matata! If anyone believes in purgatory, or has friends who do, check this out!
In less than a minute with this prayer, you can pray out 1000 souls, yes 1000!
This is in that prayer" Eternal Father, I offer thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus..."
What? Who is offering Christ's blood?
So when Jesus said "It is finished", it wasn't finished? Of course it was! He paid it all!
Purgatory takes away from the redeeming and complete sacrifice that Jesus made for us. He does not need us to assist Him in His act of redemption.
In less than a minute with this prayer, you can pray out 1000 souls, yes 1000!
This is in that prayer" Eternal Father, I offer thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus..."
What? Who is offering Christ's blood?
So when Jesus said "It is finished", it wasn't finished? Of course it was! He paid it all!
Purgatory takes away from the redeeming and complete sacrifice that Jesus made for us. He does not need us to assist Him in His act of redemption.
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@Cassandra In the true sense of the word, purgatory occurred completely and finally on the Cross: "He...by Himself purged our sins" (Hebrews 1) and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Well, Jesus is on record with saying it. So, the WHY is secondary.
But to answer your question, this is how language is used. “Today” or ‘now’ is used for emphasis.
My grandmothers twin sister was fond of telling a childhood incident. Their mother could’ve said. “Tell her to come home.”
The emphasis was added TELL HER TO COME HOME RIGHT NOW.
The problem with your take - that is a bigger stretch - is that it contradicts Scripture that says Jesus was in the ground for 3 days and 3 nights before being resurrected.
nowhere does Scripture say partying up with the thief on the cross in the days in between.
His body was in the tomb for 3 days. The soul and spirit never dies. Try again my friend.
Actually it goes back to Judaism.
“According to Judaism, the purifying process that a sullied soul undergoes to cleanse it from its spiritual uncleanliness is a temporary one, and is restorative in its intent, and not punitive, as many mistakenly believe. Ultimately, all Jews have portion in the World to Come, as do Righteous Gentiles, non-Jews who observe the Seven Noahide Commandments.” (http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-teachings.htm)
The view of purgatory is still more clearly expressed in rabbinical passages, as in the teaching of the Shammaites: "In the last judgment day there shall be three classes of souls: the righteous shall at once be written down for the life everlasting; the wicked, for Gehenna; but those whose virtues and sins counterbalance one another shall go down to Gehenna and float up and down until they rise purified; for of them it is said: 'I will bring the third part into the fire and refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried' [Zech. xiii. 9.]; also, 'He [the Lord] bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up again'" (I Sam. ii. 6). The Hillelites seem to have had no purgatory; for they said: "He who is 'plenteous in mercy' [Ex. xxxiv. 6.] inclines the balance toward mercy, and consequently the intermediates do not descend into Gehenna" (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 3; R. H. 16b; Bacher, "Ag. Tan." i. 18). Still they also speak of an intermediate state. (PURGATORY - JewishEncyclopedia.com)
Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process.
Many Protestants believe in a purification after death but they call it Glorification.
Glorification is the Protestant alternative to purgatory, as it is "the means by which the elect receive perfection before entering into the kingdom of Heaven."
The majority of Protestant denominations believe in this form of glorification, although some have alternative names.
(askdefine.com)
“Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Hebrews 2:10-11 ), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Ephesians 5:27 ). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Corinthians 3:18 ) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.”
(Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Terms)
“Glorification marks the completion of Christ's work of redemption as the believer stands before God having been awakened from sin's deadly slumber, having been given a new heart and having been purified completely in soul and body.”
( Dr. James E. Bordwine – Westminster Presbyterian Church)
Covenant Theology: Glorification (Part 1)
My understanding is that the majority of Protestants who believe in Glorification understands that the process ends at death. That the Sanctification or Glorification is a maturing in Christ while on earth before death.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I’m already successful with what I’ve already explained. So, there is no need to try again. Thanks though.
The soul dies and the everlasting Sprit of God never dies. The Spirit of men die, including the man Jesus.
Surely, to die means unqualified death - no ‘physical’ only qualifier. The heart of the Good News is that the man Jesus fully died like all men and was resurrected by God; not that he only appeared to die in part.
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St. Gertrude's writings contain no such promise and the Church has officially condemned prayer cards containing a promise to release one or more souls from purgatory.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
If that's what you believe then OK. It doesn't change my point about Judaism though.
Also some Orthodox teach Aerial Toll-Houses regarding the souls journey after its departure from the body after death.
But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which – even thought they have repented over them – they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sin, (St. Mark of Ephesus)
(Aerial Toll-Houses - OrthodoxWiki)
St. Mark of Ephesus was the main spokesman and theologian for the Orthodox at the Council of Ferrara in 1438. He also wrote that “the souls of people who die with unforgiven minor sins will experience spiritual sufferings in the afterlife, which, however, are not divine punishments but self-inflicted consequences of these sins”
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