Question About The Lord Esau & His Servant

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Wrangler

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The scene in Genesis 32-36 is the trickster, Jacob, is returning from exile after 20 years with his large contingent of wives, children, servants and livestock. They see Esau approaching with 400 men. The trickster, Jacob, arranges his contingent in reverse order of importance, with his most loved wife and child bringing up the rear with him so they will be last to be slaughtered. The trickster, Jacob, bribes his brother and over and over again, Jacob identifies Esau as his lord. In devotional reading of the Complete Jewish Bible, these questions emerge.
  • In v 32:4, Jacob identifies himself as the servant of the lord Esau. Yet, in v10 he says to God that he is God's servant. Does this not indicate dual loyalty?
  • Furthermore, in v 32:11, he asks the lord God to rescue him from his brother. Doesn't this show the trickster, Jacob, remains a trickster, duplicitous, and a disloyal servant?
    • I think the answer is yes, until transformed in v 32:25 then some man wrestled with him until daybreak.
  • Given the relational dynamic is that Esau is the lord and Jacob is the servant, in v 36:6-7, why is it not the the trickster, Jacob, who leaves the land when their possessions became too great for them to live together? (And not just b/c God wanted it that way. What in the text explains?)
 
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Webers_Home

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There's a couple of Hebrew words translated "lord" in the Old Testament.

One is Jehovah (a.k.a. YHVH, a.k.a. Yahweh) which is a name reserved for
God only.

The second is 'adown a versatile word often used as a courteous title of
respect for elders and or superiors. For example Sarah spoke of her husband
as 'adown at Gen 18:12, Rachel addressed her dad by it at Gen 31:5, and
Jacob addressed his brother Esau by 'adown at Gen 33:8.

The two lords are nicely juxtaposed in Psalm 110:1 where David said:

"The Lord said unto my lord: Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
enemies thy footstool."

The first lord in that passage is Jehovah and the second is 'adown, so we can
justly paraphrase it to read:

"Jehovah said to my master" etc, etc.


NOTE: Christians are inclined to force Ps 110:1 into proving Christ is God
but the Hebrew of that verse doesn't go along with their view. It's only
saying that one of David's sons has been elevated to a kingship higher than
himself; which in Jewish thinking is contrary to Ex 20:12 & Ps 89:27.
_
 
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amadeus

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@Wrangler
Jacob = heel holder, supplanter [trickster]

Israel = "God prevails"

When did God begin to prevail in the man Jacob? When did He finally prevail? Did Jacob grow toward God little by little during his natural lifetime?

Jacob is first named in Gen 25:26. His name is changed to Israel in Gen 32:28

In a count made many years ago, I found that the word, Jacob, was used about 70 times in the Book of Genesis after he received the name, Israel, in Gen 32:28. The word, Israel, was used only 40 times in those same chapters and some of those usages referred to the nation rather than the man.

Toward the end of Genesis, when Jacob/Israel provides a final prophecy to his sons, see how the man speaks of himself:


Ge 49:1And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Ge 49:2Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father

Consider those things in this conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees here:


They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Joh 8:39
Joh 8:40
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
At the end, was he Still Jacob, the Trickster, or had he really been converted to Israel, "God prevails"? At the end, whose children were each of the 12?
 

GRACE ambassador

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At the end, whose children were each of the 12?
Thanks, I appreciate easy (understanding):

Gen_49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Exo_24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Eze_47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

Mat_19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk_22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev_21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
------------
Precious friend(s):

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)
!
 
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amadeus

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There is not one answer to this question.
Of course, God has all of the answers, but the one I would want to credit with being a son of Israel [rather than Jacob]at the end, would be Judah.

Consider that the first four sons of Jacob were by Leah, his first and least favorite wife. When Reuben disqualified himself by sleeping with one of Jacob's concubines, Jacob seemingly took advantage of the Reuben's loss to the swing the double portion normally due to the first born over to Joseph, the first son born to his favorite wife, Rachel... but actually his 5th son.

Leah's 2nd and 3rd sons, Simeon and Levi called "instruments of cruelty" by Jacob [Gen 49:5] also displeased their father when they tricked and took revenge on the man [Gen 34:25] who raped their sister, Dinah, along with all of the men in his family. They were his 2nd and 3rd ones right behind Reuben with Judah, the 4th son, the next one in line,. But Jacob gave the double portion to Joseph, the 5th son, his favorite, by his favorite wife.

As we see, however, while Judah was perhaps the chief instigator in the sale of his little brother, Joseph, into slavery, Judah made an almost unbelievable turn around, [repentance] from his past deeds. During the famine he effectively put himself on the chopping block to save Benjamin, the remaining son of Jacob's favorite wife. Since the first three actual sons of Jacob by birth order had disqualified themselves, even though Joseph received the double portion, did not Judah ultimately receive the best part as the son of Israel/Jacob out of which came the Messiah, Jesus? Jacob tried to sidestep the first born in favor of the first son of Rachel, but God was still in control, wasn't He?
 

Wrangler

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Since the first three actual sons of Jacob by birth order had disqualified themselves, even though Joseph received the double portion
I'm not sure how to conclude the 3 sons disqualified themselves since they actually received the inheritance but Joseph did not. I believe a careful reading of the text reveals that Joseph's 2 sons were each directly given a portion from Israel. So, while it is said that Joseph received a double portion (in this manner), he literally got no direct portion. (I could be wrong about this but I recall that was my take away from my previous study).

What impressed me was the fact that all of Israel's 12 sons got an inheritance, none were actually disqualified, which contrasts with how we consider the 12 Apostles. In another thread, I delved into Judas forever being one of the 12 Apostles. There is strong opposition to this despite no Scripture ever saying Judas was disqualified. Fascinating subject.
 
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amadeus

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I'm not sure how to conclude the 3 sons disqualified themselves since they actually received the inheritance but Joseph did not. I believe a careful reading of the text reveals that Joseph's 2 sons were each directly given a portion from Israel. So, while it is said that Joseph received a double portion (in this manner), he literally got no direct portion. (I could be wrong about this but I recall that was my take away from my previous study).

What impressed me was the fact that all of Israel's 12 sons got an inheritance, none were actually disqualified, which contrasts with how we consider the 12 Apostles. In another thread, I delved into Judas forever being one of the 12 Apostles. There is strong opposition to this despite no Scripture ever saying Judas was disqualified. Fascinating subject.
For the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel I would not disqualify any of them as sons of Israel, for who am I to judge?

With regard to Joseph in one sense you are right that he personally was given no portion of the inheritance. However, by effectively adopting his own two grandsons Jacob made each of them equal to his 11 other sons. 13 portions were given. From there we might get into what the flesh inherited versus what was inherited spiritually. But...not having the knowledge that God has, how could we really even begin to judge them rightly? God can judge fairly, but how can we unless God is with us in our judgement?

On Judas Iscariot, I am with you. To most people he may be considered to be a devil or to be led/controlled by a devil, but I am not really a competent judge. Fortunately, God does not require our help in that judgement.
 

Jay Ross

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The scene in Genesis 32-36 is the trickster, Jacob, is returning from exile after 20 years with his large contingent of wives, children, servants and livestock. They see Esau approaching with 400 men. The trickster, Jacob, arranges his contingent in reverse order of importance, with his most loved wife and child bringing up the rear with him so they will be last to be slaughtered. The trickster, Jacob, bribes his brother and over and over again, Jacob identifies Esau as his lord. In devotional reading of the Complete Jewish Bible, these questions emerge.
  • In v 32:4, Jacob identifies himself as the servant of the lord Esau. Yet, in v10 he says to God that he is God's servant. Does this not indicate dual loyalty?
  • Furthermore, in v 32:11, he asks the lord God to rescue him from his brother. Doesn't this show the trickster, Jacob, remains a trickster, duplicitous, and a disloyal servant?
    • I think the answer is yes, until transformed in v 32:25 then some man wrestled with him until daybreak.
  • Given the relational dynamic is that Esau is the lord and Jacob is the servant, in v 36:6-7, why is it not the the trickster, Jacob, who leaves the land when their possessions became too great for them to live together? (And not just b/c God wanted it that way. What in the text explains?)

So, the one who had no care for God, Esau, called Jacob a trickster, when in fact we are not told of the reason why Esau was so willing to give Jacob what he asked for when Esau demanded that Jacob give him a bowl of the soup that he was preparing, in the Genesis account. The book of Jasher, originally an oral history, suggests that Esau was in fear for his life, because he had just killed Nimrod and stolen from Nimrod Adam's Skins that God had given him after he had eaten from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. The tradition at that time was that Adam's skins gave the wearer the authority to be the lord over everybody else. From my research, it appears that this incident occurred when the twins were around 16 years old.

Now, Isaac when he was around 100-years old decided that he would give Esau his blessing. Isaac loved Esau more than he loved Jacob because Esau would hunt wild game to feed his father Isaac. Isaac had forgotten God's prophetic word that Rebekah had received while carrying the twins that the older child, Esau would serve the younger child.

Gen 25:19-28: - 19 This is the genealogy of Isaac, Abraham's son. Abraham begot Isaac. 20 Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah as wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan Aram, the sister of Laban the Syrian. 21 Now Isaac pleaded with the Lord for his wife, because she was barren; and the Lord granted his plea, and Rebekah his wife conceived. 22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If all is well, why am I like this?" So she went to inquire of the Lord.​
23 And the Lord said to her:​
"Two nations are in your womb,​
Two peoples shall be separated from your body;​
One people shall be stronger than the other,​
And the older shall serve the younger."​
24 So when her days were fulfilled for her to give birth, indeed there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red. He was like a hairy garment all over; so they called his name Esau. 26 Afterward his brother came out, and his hand took hold of Esau's heel; so his name was called Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.​
27 So the boys grew. And Esau was a skillful hunter, a man of the field; but Jacob was a mild man, dwelling in tents. 28 And Isaac loved Esau because he ate of his game, but Rebekah loved Jacob.​
NKJV

Now when Rebekah learned that Isaac was going to give his blessing to Esau, such that Esau would be the lord over Jacob, she remembered God Prophetic word to her that the older twin would serve the younger twin, and so she orchestrated the deception of Isaac into giving his blessing to Jacob instead of Esau. Jacob was more than likely an unwilling participant in Rebeckah's plan to deceive Isaac so that Jacob became the one whom the other brother, Esau served.

Now God's hand was in this giving of the Isaac's blessing to Jacob. Why can I say that? Well Isaac thought that he was going to die 75 years before he actually did. His eyesight was poor, probably because he was long sighted and had poor short vision, and he also had poor hearing.

Now Isaac asked Jacob how come he had found the game that he desired so quickly, and Jacob replied with, "Because the Lord your God brought it to me." Isaac then conducted a number of other checks but when he was convinced that it was probably Esau, he gave Jacob his blessing.

Now when Esau returned and discovered that Isaac had given his blessing to Jacob, he flew into a rage and claimed that Jacob had tricked him into giving up his birthright, when in fact Esau willingly gave that up, and that he had deceived Isaac to get the blessing that Isaac had promised him through deception.

In fact, it was Rebekah who had worked on deceiving Isaac because of God's prophetic word to her while the twins where still in her womb.

Esau's rage grew to the point where he planned to murder his brother. and Rebekah encouraged Isaac to send Jacob to her family in and around Haran to that he could find for himself a wife. Jacob was sent to Rebakah's family when he was around 40 years of age.

In Haran Laban tricked Jacob into marrying Leah first before he married Rebecah and he willingly served Laban 14 years for both of his daughters. Jacob worked for Laban for 40 years, using the last six years to get his wages from Laban.

During the 40 years that Jacon was living with Laban, Esau's anger towards Jacob had subsided, but Jacob's fear of his brother and what he would do to him as he returned to his father Isaac, remained with him over all of those years, even though God had been with him all of that time. Jacob returned around so 50 years before he went down to Egypt at the invitation of Joseph, his favourite son.

Now Esau's leaving Isaac's household shortly after the return of Jacob indicates to me that Esau had come to accept that the Blessing Isaac had given to Jacob was Jacob's to have. That this had been God's intention all along, that Jacob would receive Isaac's blessing.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

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So, lying is sometimes the will of God, right?

But Isaac was the one who had deceived himself because of his love for wild game to eat. He had forgotten God's prophetic words to Rebekah while she was pregnant with the twins that the first born would serve the second born child. Isaac had been enticed to go against God's words some 40 or so years previously. It could be argued that Rebekah simple set out to ensure that the Prophecy that she had received was fulfilled when Isaac set out to bless his son.

As I had previously posted, God's hand was involved so that Isaac could be deceived when Jacob took the prepared meal made by Rebekah to him.

We should remember the following two verses: -

Gen 26:34-35: - 34 When Esau was forty years old, he took as wives Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite. 35 And this grieved Isaac’s and Rebekah’s spirit.
My change to the NKJV

And yet Isaac still wanted to give his blessing to Esau.

Isaac also listened to his wife Rebekah, after Esau threatened to kill his brother after the "supposed imminent death" of his father Isaac and sent Jacob away to Rebekah's brother Laban who was living in Haran, to find a wife for himself amongst Rebekah's kin.

When Jacob returned, Esau's dislike of his brother had waned and when he had heard of Jacob returning to his father, Esau travelled to greet Jacob on his journey back to his father's house,

We should remember that it was Esau who decided to move away from Isaac's household because the two flocks of the brothers could not be feed on the pastures around where Isaac lived. Gen 36:6-8 and he became a great nation there in the land that became known as Edom.

Oh well, you are welcome to think and believe what you chose to believe.
 

Wrangler

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But Isaac was the one who had deceived himself because of his love for wild game to eat. He had forgotten God's prophetic words to Rebekah while she was pregnant with the twins that the first born would serve the second born child.
Wow! That's reaching. A Father loves his son - including the one he has more in commone with - is no opposing God's will.
Oh well, you are welcome to think and believe what you chose to believe.
Indeed.
 

Aunty Jane

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Wow! That's reaching. A Father loves his son - including the one he has more in commone with - is no opposing God's will.
You seem to be losing sight of the big picture by concentrating on details that don’t really matter in the big scheme of things.....
So, what is the big picture here? How do the details fit into that big picture without becoming too important on their own?

As an example, why was Joseph sold into slavery when his brothers really wanted to kill him? Who saved him from death and sold him instead to the passing slave traders?

All of Jacob’s sons featured in what is prophesied about the “12 tribes of Israel”......without them, there would have been no 12 tribes. These tribes served as “types and shadows” of things to come, meaning that the originals were pictorial. Physically they were used to indicate whose family line would produce “the seed” because Jesus needed to be born as a human, but with the correct credentials....he was to come not just from Israel, but from only one tribe....Judah.
In every respect, he fulfilled the scriptural requirements for who he was prophesied to be.
How did Joseph’s being sold into slavery feature in all of that?

What did Joseph reveal to his brothers after he had tested them to see if they were still the same men who had heartlessly sold him, and then seen their father’s reaction? They had to live with his grief from that day forward and his protective measures toward Benjamin, the only surviving part of his beloved Rachel.

Joseph was aware of why he was there, and also why he had been appointed over all of Pharaoh’s affairs....

Genesis 45:4-13.....
“Then he said: “I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. 5 But now do not be upset and do not reproach one another because you sold me here; because God has sent me ahead of you for the preservation of life. 6 This is the second year of the famine in the land, and there are yet five years in which there will be no plowing or harvest. 7 But God sent me ahead of you in order to preserve for you a remnant on the earth and to keep you alive by a great deliverance. 8 So, then, it was not you who sent me here, but it was the true God, in order to appoint me as chief adviser to Pharʹaoh and lord for all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt.

9 “Return quickly to my father, and you must say to him, ‘This is what your son Joseph has said: “God has appointed me lord over all Egypt. Come down to me. Do not delay. 10 You must dwell in the land of Goʹshen, where you will be near me—you, your sons, your grandsons, your flocks, your herds, and everything you have. 11 I will supply you with food there, for there are yet five years of famine. Otherwise, you and your house and everything you have will come to poverty.”’ 12 You and my brother Benjamin can now see with your own eyes that I am really the one speaking to you. 13 So you must tell my father about all my glory in Egypt and everything you have seen. Now hurry and bring my father down here.”


This is God foreseeing the future in a world he has handed over to satan, (Luke 4:5-6) but who can manipulate events well in advance to protect the outworking of his original purpose. Seeing who the real ruler of this world is, (1 John 5:19) we can also see that Jehovah has never allowed the devil to derail his long term plan to bring his Messiah into the world at the right time......at every step he has protected his son even well before his human birth.....from the time of Abraham when he first told of the promised seed from Abraham’s lineage, he has kept the devil from setting up his roadblocks to prevent the redeemer from saving mankind. We see what he did when the magi alerted Herod to his birth as future king.....Herod tried to kill him before he even had a chance to grow up...who was responsible for that? How did God prevent that disaster?

The devil, in his temptations of Jesus after his baptism, also revealed that angels were charged with protecting him till his mission was completed. (Luke 4:9-13) He was a mortal human after all....not an immortal “God/man”, otherwise he could not have died at the hands of mere men.

I think it also answers why Jesus said....”My God, my God, Why have you forsaken me?”

On his execution stake Jesus had to be “forsaken” by his Heavenly Father, in order that his integrity to God might be tested to the very limit. God forsook him, abandoning him to the cruel devices of satan the devil and his wicked religious agents on earth, allowing his mission, to give his life for ours, to be completed. This explains why satan, who has “the means to cause death”, was given free allowance to exercise his power against the Son of God, through his human minions.

There is nothing the devil can do, that cannot be undone....by the one whose power is, and always has been, supreme. The details of who inherited what and why, in the pictorial sense, pale into insignificance when the big picture is examined IMO.

With the coming of God’s kingdom, his will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.....only then will all we have endured in this world be seen to be “the end justifying the means”.
 
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Wrangler

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You seem to be losing sight of the big picture by concentrating on details that don’t really matter in the big scheme of things.....
It only took you 13 paragraphs to tell me what ‘the big picture’ is?! I’m not surprised.

There is nothing the devil can do, that cannot be undone....by the one whose power is, and always has been, supreme. The details of who inherited what and why, in the pictorial sense, pale into insignificance when the big picture is examined IMO.
This ‘big picture’ has nothing to do with what this thread is about AND could be said/written about any scene in the Bible.

Elizabeth is told her son cannot drink alcohol. Well, that’s just concentrating on details that don’t really matter in the big scheme of things..... There is nothing the devil can do, that cannot be undone....by the one whose power is, and always has been, supreme.
 

strepho

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Jacob did get the birthright by deceit. Admiral James kirk supposedly cheated on the officer exam to get command. Back to reality. The promises belong to seed of abraham. Not ESAU, which is Russia. How do you know this?? I didn't cheat like captain Kirk, I studied the bible hard. Malachi 1:2. I have loved you, says the Lord, Yet he say, Where in hast thou loved us? Was not ESAU Jacob's brother? Says, the Lord: yet I loved Jacob. 1:3. And I hated ESAU, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. ESAU was a Profane person, and didn't care about his heritage and about God. Israel has the blessings and birthright. Russia will always live by the sword. God wanted Jacob to have the birthright and heritage. I documented this. Their are few Christian people in Russia. But most of Russia is heathen. I'm not judging anyone. I'll stop here.
 

Wrangler

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Jacob did get the birthright by deceit ... The promises belong to seed of abraham. Not ESAU
Yes but Jacob's mother's intervention is akin to Isaac's mother's intervention, trying to assist God in delivering on his promise. Both with disastrous results.

You say Esau is Russia. Anything bad coming from there?

Their are few Christian people in Russia.

According to Christianity in Russia - Wikipedia, 47.1% of Russians are Christians. I wouldn't call that a few.

There are 110 M of one denomination according to Russian Orthodox Church - Wikipedia. I wouldn't call that a few.
 

strepho

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Yes but Jacob's mother's intervention is akin to Isaac's mother's intervention, trying to assist God in delivering on his promise. Both with disastrous results.

You say Esau is Russia. Anything bad coming from there?



According to Christianity in Russia - Wikipedia, 47.1% of Russians are Christians. I wouldn't call that a few.

There are 110 M of one denomination according to Russian Orthodox Church - Wikipedia. I wouldn't call that a few.
Titus chapter 3, I won't debate or strive about God's word, its unprofitable. Your taking the percentage of Russia people out of context. Few can mean 40 percent or 20 percent. Understand this. Jacob is Gods elect, as abraham, moses, issac, Jacob, Joseph, ect. Jeremiah chapter 1, God ordained Jeremiah prophet, before he was ever in his mother's womb. This is predestined, chosen before foundation of the world. Isaiah 6:13. The tenth is Teil tree. Its holy seed, that's passed down from generations to generation. Stop being so defensive. I'm only sharing God's truth. I'm not in any way undermining you. God called abraham out of ur. Hes God's election, God made covenant with abraham. ESAU is not Gods Elect, he has free will, and is heathen. First Peter 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. God's election are of Israel. They have the blessings and birthright. Russia is cursed. It's not directed at some Russian Christian people. Only heathen . Can any thing bad come from Russia. It's the system that is evil. Its against God. Socialism and communism is of satan. Our nation is founded on Gods laws. Ezekiel chapter 38, Russia and Islamic brotherhood near future will attack America, which is Israel. God will destroy Russia and Islamic brotherhood army, to show the heathen God is real. God doesn't want Israel taking credit. No one is attacking you, or undermining you. God did not want ESAU to have the birthright. He's profane, and hates God. Jacob is God's Elect. The election are predestined, and foreordained. I documented this. I will not reply back. It's a courtesy of me to answer one time. PEACE.
 

Aunty Jane

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Yes but Jacob's mother's intervention is akin to Isaac's mother's intervention, trying to assist God in delivering on his promise. Both with disastrous results.
What disastrous results would that be, when we already know that the devil has relentlessly tried to undermine God’s purpose to bring his Messiah into the world through Abraham’s lineage? Keeping the lineage pure for the most part was important. That is why Jacob’s tribes became the 12 tribes of Israel.

If there was no challenge to God’s purpose from his arch enemy, then where is the victory? The meaning of God’s name is “I will be what I will be”....so living up to his name means that God will “be” whatever he needs to “be” in order to bring about his will. Why do you think that the devil is still free to do his best to thwart everything that God does? God could have sniffed him out like an insect, but what would that have achieved in the big picture. Why are we enduring this life?

There are 110 M of one denomination according to Russian Orthodox Church - Wikipedia. I wouldn't call that a few.
Russia has gone from godless communism to being completely dictated to by the Russian Orthodox church.
It is because of the influence of this corrupt church, hand in glove with the equally corrupt political system that the devil can do his best. Their judicial system is a farce. There is no justice, so they are free to silence any dissenters....like China does. These powers along with their allies, represent the “king of the North” in Daniel’s prophesies. The US and her allies represent the “king of the South”. But that is for another thread....
 
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