Question about the remission of sins

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ahigherway

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Jun 17, 2010
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Hi everyone,

Question: when the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian
 

TexUs

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Question: when the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?
They were only priests of God's people (Israel). Sacrifice has always been only for God's people.

We also see this in the NT... Sacrifice of Christ is only for God's people (I'd still call them Israel- but we're part of Israel now). Those that believe.

No different than the OT... Those that believed and submitted to God's law... Today we believe and submit to God's law too, but the new Covenant.
 

Joshua David

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Feb 10, 2011
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Hi everyone,

Question: when the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian

Well, let's look at the scriptures first.

Lev 16:15-16 [sup]15[/sup]Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: [sup]16[/sup]And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. [sup]17[/sup]And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.


Let's also look at one more thing.


Lev 17:1-4 [sup]1[/sup]And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [sup]2[/sup]Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,

[sup]3[/sup]What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp, <a name="4">
[sup]4[/sup]And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:


So to answer your question, I would say that the yearly sacrifice only covered certain people, that is to say the children of Israel, those who were a direct descendant of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, as long as you were not cut off from among your people.

But I personally disagree with calling the Church Israel though, but that is just my opinion.

Joshua David

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TexUs

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So to answer your question, I would say that the yearly sacrifice only covered certain people, that is to say the children of Israel, those who were a direct descendant of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, as long as you were not cut off from among your people.
But I personally disagree with calling the Church Israel though, but that is just my opinion.
Take this along with context of many other places (like not all that are descended from Israel are Israel, Romans 9:6):
For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.


That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham
[font="Georgia][size="3"]
[/size][/font]The problem with today is our nationality way of thinking. When we think of Israel, we think that some people (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) got together, established a nation, and that's what God had a covenant with. That's not true. God made his covenant with a PEOPLE, not a nation in our modern sense.

Israel is simply this: God's people. It didn't even have anything to do with bloodlines. In fact, and most people don't know this, Gentiles could become members of Israel THEN, just as it is NOW.
If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.

"Old" or "Original Israel" contained both JEWS and GENTILES who SUBMITTED TO GOD'S LAW.
"New" or "Present Israel" contains both JEWS and GENTILES who SUBMIT to CHRIST'S HEADSHIP.

Shockingly similar, isn't it???

So what changed between the OC (Old Covenant) and NC? The fulfillment of the law.
Under the old law, faith and the sacrificial system- saved people. Works were something that was mandatory, the sacrificial system was a sacrifice for when 100% of the time, someone couldn't keep the law.
Under the new law, faith and the final sacrifice (Christ)- saved people. Works are still mandatory, the sacrifice of Christ atoned for when 100% of the time, we can't keep the law.

Again, shockingly similar, isn't it?

Let me clarify something about the works. They are still mandatory in the sense that we are condemned by the works. Just like in the OC. What differs is that in the OC, one had to rely upon their own works for atonement. They could sacrifice a sheep, or they could ignore it. It was works based in the OC more so of how the sacrificing was done. If you failed to keep that work, you perished.
In this NC... There's nothing we can do that can separate a Christian from the sacrifice of Christ. He's got us covered- we can't screw it up. So it's not dependent upon our works to sacrifice, but upon his: which has already been done for us.

In a nutshell this is a description of the Israel of Old and the Israel of New, and the difference of why it changed.
Most people don't realize how similar they really are. The Old was a shadow of the New.

However once you realize that Old Israel was God's People... And New Israel is God's People... Israel hasn't changed. It's still God's People, which includes you and me.

What was the purpose of Israel the Nation, then? Well, they were given a King. They were given a Temple. Christ had not yet come, and God was behind a veil.
The King was his rule over his people and his Priests were the ones who once a year entered the Holy of Holies.
Christ came, as a man, and changed that. He removed that veil, giving us direct access to God. No longer did we need a King. No longer do we need a Priest. So you can see here, the Israel the Nation is dissolved. Christ is our King, Christ is our High Priest. (Amen!!)

I think once you look at Israel like this, for what it is (God's People)... You'll easily see why Israel is the church today. You'll also see why I believe there's no special status with Israel the Nation today. It's a renamed nation of men and nothing more.
 

charlesj

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Sep 13, 2010
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Hi everyone,

Question: when the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian

Hello ahigherway:



The Passover event covered those Israelites who were in fellowship with God. Under the old covenant there was NO offering
for intentional sins. For example, sins of adultery were taken care of by stoning etc.


I presented the Sacrificial System using Microsoft’s PowerPoint. One of my
one hour lessons was Yom Kippur, 84 slides.
If anyone wants a copy, please email me and I will attach them to a
reply. [email protected].

Your servant in Messiah,

Charles



 

Vengle53

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Well, let's look at the scriptures first.

Lev 16:15-16 [sup]15[/sup]Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: [sup]16[/sup]And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. [sup]17[/sup]And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.


Let's also look at one more thing.


Lev 17:1-4 [sup]1[/sup]And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, [sup]2[/sup]Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
[sup]3[/sup]What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp, <a name="4">
[sup]4[/sup]And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:


So to answer your question, I would say that the yearly sacrifice only covered certain people, that is to say the children of Israel, those who were a direct descendant of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, as long as you were not cut off from among your people.

But I personally disagree with calling the Church Israel though, but that is just my opinion.

Joshua David





Very good consideration.

The aspect of the sacrifices here being discussed are applied to the believer who has entered the fold through the proper door (as opposed to the theif and the robber that climbs up another way) as to the imputing of a righteous standing for that one before God that their petitions may be heard.

It definitely applies to the church but I yet have the feeling that many do not see why this arrangement was only part of the temporary addition of a Law to a temporarily recognized fleshly people.

Boy will I catch flack for saying that, but when you think about the simplicity of rest of the whole demonstration which you already know about but have not thought to factor in, you are going to shake your head and say why did I not see that!

To get closer to seeing the whole picture I have a number of simple questions:

(1) How many children of the true God came directly from Adam and Eve as children of the true God?

(2) When and where is it that the scripture shows God hath concluded all under sin, as Paul referenced? Galatians 3:22

(3) If as Paul said in a few different places, 1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die ...", then why did God treat a fleshly people as though they were alive? What was God teaching men in so doing this?
 

Vengle53

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How is it possible for Paul to say things like, Romans 3:9-20 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we
have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be
stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

And yet we have the testimony of these same Bible writers to faithful and righteous Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and as
Paul; speaks at Hebrews chapter 11 and 12, Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a
cloud of witnesses".

It is possible because Paul is referencing there in Romans chapter 3 our condition in Adam due to the punishment on Adam for his sin.

The scripture concluded us all under sin the very moment Adam's sentence was pronounced upon him.

None were born righteous of Adam. All of Adam's flesh was born to death and dieing.

But where sin abounded, grace abounded more as God from before the founding of this world proceeded to pronounce the sentence of death upon Adam and all that was in his loins.

It would be good to take time to tweak you understanding as we go here.

God did not found this world. God founded paradise. Adam brought corruption into God's perfect founding. With His plan of grace in place from the moment Adam sinned, God then permitted Adam to proceed to found this world. Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Understanding this we can see that the founding of the world began with Adam and Eve having children. We can see then that the sentence on Adam and the choosing of God's grace were both happened at the same time, from before the founding of the world.

And because we can see that all were confined under sin right there from before the founding of the world, we can also see that right there from before the founding of the world the son's of destruction were destined to be. And we can see that God's grace had also determined that children to God would be selected out from among these sons of destruction.

This provides important foundation for our being able to correctly understand of the scriptures, and especially the words of Paul.

But some will pridefully not desire to see how simple this really is.

Don't worry about them. Be concerned that you understand it.
 

Vengle53

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I have said many times in different posts that God never gave His promises to the sinful flesh. All flesh came corrupted from Adam locked up together to sin and no promises could be given it. Even the Law was added merely to convict the prideful flesh of its imprisonment to sin and to justify to men's minds its punishment of death so that men might repent their pride in that flesh and embrace the mercy that is not through Adam but through the grace of God that is in Christ Jesus applied toward the spirit.


Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10:1 ¶For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
 

Templar81

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This is a very interesting thread as I had never thoughth that the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament were sufficient for the forgiveness of sins.
 

TexUs

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This is a very interesting thread as I had never thoughth that the blood sacrifices in the Old Testament were sufficient for the forgiveness of sins.
Yes and no.

While they were required for that, they were done out of the FAITH in the coming Messiah.
Abraham was justified by FAITH, not his works of sacrifices.

The works of sacrifices were done because of the faith in what was to come.

Just like our works to others today (service), should be done because of our faith in what's to come for us.
While they don't TECHNICALLY save us, it's a required thing done out of faith.

If the folks of the OT didn't sacrifice, their faith in what was to come was called into question.
If we don't sacrifice (service, time, etc)... Our faith in what is to come is called into question.

 

Templar81

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While they were required for that, they were done out of the FAITH in the coming Messiah.
Abraham was justified by FAITH, not his works of sacrifices.

That coudl explain why God favoured Abel's offering over Cain's.

Was it kind of like an indulgence, but only for those who lived by all the many laws such as the Pharases and Sageses (excuse spelling).

One other question:
Since the ancient Jews didn't believe in any after life what was the point of them trying to have their sins forgiven, since they believed they would neither be dammed nor saved. I'm talking about before the Balylonian captivity.

Later on they started believing in Sheol. Do Jews today believe in Sheol?
 

TexUs

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That coudl explain why God favoured Abel's offering over Cain's.

Was it kind of like an indulgence, but only for those who lived by all the many laws such as the Pharases and Sageses (excuse spelling).
I don't understand the question, but those that "lived" in the law like the Pharisees were not Christians nor living by faith.

Since the ancient Jews didn't believe in any after life
Where do you get that idea from?

Job 14:14 - The Jews most certainly believed in a resurrection. Job 19:26 is another.
Hebrews 11:10 says Abraham was looking for a city whose maker was God (New Jerusalem).
 

Templar81

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I thought that the only people who lived by all the laws of Moses were Pharases and Sageses. Was the foregiveness that the Jews got from the blood sacrifice on the sctrict condition that they lived 100% by the laws of Moses?


Also, I won't dispute what you said as I know Jews now believe in re-incarnation but I had thought that the idea of afterlife came to the Jews not long before the birth of Jesus adn before then they believed that when a person died, they just died and that was it.
 

TexUs

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I thought that the only people who lived by all the laws of Moses were Pharases and Sageses. Was the foregiveness that the Jews got from the blood sacrifice on the sctrict condition that they lived 100% by the laws of Moses?
What do you suppose the sacrifice did if you were 100% living by the law and had no sin?
BTW- nobody lived perfectly by the law.


 

TexUs

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They all ahd original sin, so none of them were without sin.
So you're saying they were born with original sin, and from when they were born they never sinned again?

Am I understanding your position correctly?
 

jiggyfly

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They were only priests of God's people (Israel). Sacrifice has always been only for God's people.

We also see this in the NT... Sacrifice of Christ is only for God's people (I'd still call them Israel- but we're part of Israel now). Those that believe.

No different than the OT... Those that believed and submitted to God's law... Today we believe and submit to God's law too, but the new Covenant.



The OP asked for scriptures, so heres a couple to reference.
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! There is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29


Whatever we do, it is because Christ's love controls us. [fn] Since we believe that Christ died for everyone, we also believe that we have all died to the old life we used to live. 2Cor.5:14


For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. This is the wonderful message he has given us to tell others. 2Cor.5:19
 

Templar81

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Am I understanding your position correctly?

No!

Like everyone else who was either born before Jesus or is not a Christian, the ancient Jews would have had original sin. Everyone is born with it and only Baptism in the name of the Trinity can remove it.

So they were born with original sin which at the time they ahd no way of getting rid of.

If they confessed their sins and lived by the law then they would have those sins forgiven but they would still have orioginal sin.

That has just brought another question to mind: could someone obey the law and still sin>
 

TexUs

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No!

Like everyone else who was either born before Jesus or is not a Christian, the ancient Jews would have had original sin.
Abraham was a Christian. He was just saved by his faith on the other side of the cross. We look back on it, they looked to it.


Everyone is born with it and only Baptism in the name of the Trinity can remove it.
Wrong- Christ removes sins. Is Baptism important, yes... Is it necessary for salvation- no. It belittles Christ's work. It's no longer salvation by faith if you require works (Baptism) to be saved.

If they confessed their sins and lived by the law then they would have those sins forgiven but they would still have orioginal sin.
I guess your definition of original sin is different than mine (And the Bible's for that matter).

We inherit a SIN NATURE. We don't inherit Adam's sin... Adam is responsible for his own sin. We inherit his SIN NATURE though.

That has just brought another question to mind: could someone obey the law and still sin
Nobody could follow the law. The Pharisees did not follow the law 100%. The Bible is clear there is none who does all good. Read Romans 3- it's not just because of Original Sin.

So is this question purely hypothetical?
 

Templar81

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I Here is what I believe about original sin:

IX. Of Original or Birth-Sin.
Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam, (as the Pelagians do vainly talk;) but it is the fault and corruption of the Nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam; whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and is of his own nature inclined to evil, so that the flesh lusteth always contrary to the Spirit; and therefore in every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation. And this infection of nature doth remain, yea in them that are regenerated; whereby the lust of the flesh, called in Greek, p¢vnæa sapk¢s, (which some do expound the wisdom, some sensuality, some the affection, some the desire, of the flesh), is not subject to the Law of God. And although there is no condemnation for them that believe and are baptized; yet the Apostle doth confess, that concupiscence and lust hath of itself the nature of sin.


Here is what I believe about Baptism

XXVII. Of Baptism.
Baptism is not only a sign of profession, and mark of difference, whereby Christian men are discerned from others that be not christened, but it is also a sign of Regeneration or New-Birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive Baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of our adoption to be the sons of God by the Holy Ghost, are visibly signed and sealed, Faith is confirmed, and Grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God.
The Baptism of young Children is in any wise to be retained in the Church, as most agreeable with the institution of Christ.