Question about Total Depravity

[Nancy]

Hoping this will not become a monster of a thread, we have enough of them, lol.

As I was reading today, I came across a verse I never noticed before (had read many times, but did not actually "see" this part)

Romans 1:28

I chose only 3 versions:

Berean Literal Bible
"And as they did not see fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do things not being proper;"

King James Bible
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"

New King James Version
"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;"

So, simple question, looking for a few simple answers, with scripture if you don't mind

If the T. in T.U.L.I.P. was true, why would these people, adults, unsaved, be given over to the same state we were born with?

Alrighty then, that's it!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

If the T. in T.U.L.I.P. was true, why would these people, adults, unsaved, be given over to the same state we were born with?

Congrats on that great can of worms!

 

[Nancy]

View attachment 42275
Congrats on that great can of worms! View attachment 42276

Simple question.

I do not expect to get a "simple" answer from some but, I'll be sure to correct replies not related to that one question

 

[Randy Kluth]

Berean Literal Bible
"And as they did not see fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do things not being proper;"

If the T. in T.U.L.I.P. was true, why would these people, adults, unsaved, be given over to the same state we were born with?

Alrighty then, that's it!

In my view, it would be a contradiction to be born with a depraved mind and then be given over to one later in life. Doesn't make sense to me.

I would think that Total Depravity is wrong if this is what it means. I've been Calvinist-oriented for a long time, but I don't accept the "T" in TULIP. We are not "totally depraved" when we're born, though I must admit that all true virtue comes from God.

My view is that we were born with the natural inclination towards the good, to embrace God's virtue. Having been created in God's image, we were born to strive to be good and to do good, even if we cannot do that good without reference to God Himself.

God's word to man contains God's virtue so that when God commanded man to live in His image He gave us a word that itself contains that virtue. We don't have to be God to do good. We just have to assent to it. We may incline towards it or against it.

Therefore, we are not born "totally depraved"--at least I don't like the seeming insinuation that we are born evil. We were born in sin, with a predisposition to want to rebel against God's word. But at the same time we have an inborn predisposition to want to do God's word, as well.

I'm sorry, Nancy. It's gotten every bit as complicated as you didn't want us to get!

 

[O'Darby]

My understanding is that Total Depravity (in TULIP) means that everything about us is tainted by sin and unpleasing to God - we lack even the prevenient grace of Arminianism that enables a decision for Christ. This doesn't mean we are all completely depraved (utterly sinful) in all our thoughts and actions. So I would suppose the verse means what it says, even in a Calvinistic sense - God abandoned those individuals to a completely debased mind, so they actually were depraved in their thoughts and actions.

In short, Total Depravity is the condition of all humans - they cannot do anything pleasing to God. Romans 1:28 is talking about giving over specific individuals to depraved minds in regard to specific types of conduct.

In short, I don't see any inherent conflict between Total Depravity and Romans 1:28. (I'm not a Calvinist, BTW.)

 

[Lambano]

If the T. in T.U.L.I.P. was true, why would these people, adults, unsaved, be given over to the same state we were born with?

These verses are NOT, repeat NOT about individuals. This section of Romans describes how humanity (and particularly Gentiles; Jews were convinced Gentiles were moral degenerates) got to be "Depraved". This perspective was first pointed out to me by (of all people) a Jewish theologian named Pamela Eisenbaum in her book provocatively titled, St. Paul was not a Christian. Paul's target audience in Rome was a mix of Gentile and Jewish converts to Christ. Eisenbaum points out that Paul was very Jewish, and from a Jewish perspective, Gentile humanity's primary problem isn't their sin; it's their idolatry. You can especially see this in Acts; for example, Acts 17:16-31. To the Jewish people, the depravity of Gentile culture was a direct consequence of not worshipping the One True God. (Paul will point out in chapter 2 that sin is a serious problem for his Jewish-Christian audience. Even though they worship the One True God, they are also subject to Sin. Their sinning violates their covenant Law with God, and they will be judged by that Law (Romans 2:12). But this is chapter 1, which is targeted to his Gentile-Christian audience.)

The translations of Romans 1:28 you quoted used words like "depraved" and "reprobate" and "debased", but the meaning of the word used is "unfit", and it plays off a word used earlier in the verse: "And as they did not see fit (Greek δοκιμάζω, "dokimazo") to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an unfit (Greek ἀδόκιμος, "adokimos") mind, to do things not proper..."

I read verses 21-28 (especially 21-23, 25, and 28) as an "origin story" in which Paul describes a long-ago time in prehistory, sometime around the Fall, in which humanity turned away from God to idols. Our "unfit minds" are God's punishment on the human race for turning away from Him. All that stuff listed in verses 24, 26-27, and 29-31, our screwed-up sexuality, our greed, our envy, our murderous impulses, our arrogance, our treachery, our mercilessness and our lack of love, all of the suffering that this causes us is our punishment in this life for our idolatry. That's what it says; "For this reason..." (v26). It's a slightly different take on the story of Adam, Eve, and the apple. Humanity (both Jew and Gentile) has been universally "under sin" (Romans 3:9) ever since.

The unfit mind. "Clark, that's the gift that keeps on giving."

 

[Randy Kluth]

My understanding is that Total Depravity (in TULIP) means that everything about us is tainted by sin and unpleasing to God - we lack even the prevenient grace of Arminianism that enables a decision for Christ. This doesn't mean we are all completely depraved (utterly sinful) in all our thoughts and actions. So I would suppose the verse means what it says, even in a Calvinistic sense - God abandoned those individuals to a completely debased mind, so they actually were depraved in their thoughts and actions.

In short, Total Depravity is the condition of all humans - they cannot do anything pleasing to God. Romans 1:28 is talking about giving over specific individuals to depraved minds in regard to specific types of conduct.

In short, I don't see any inherent conflict between Total Depravity and Romans 1:28. (I'm not a Calvinist, BTW.)

Yes, I suppose there are different views about what TD means. I think you're right that it at least means that people cannot choose for Christ unless Christ 1st enables them. In the OT that might mean that Israel could not choose to make covenant with God unless God 1st approached them with a covenant offer?

If so, this at least partly makes sense to me. However, I'm of the view that God has already approached all of mankind with the offer of living in His word--even after the Fall. It is an inborn characteristic of Man to hear God's word. And that word did not stop after Man's Fall.

So it is built into us to be able to hear God's Word, to hear His offer to give us virtue or, if it is available, to live in covenant relationship with God. No covenant was, however, available to any nation but Israel before Christ.

In theory, we would all be despicable if God's Word vacated Man entirely. We would have no basis for doing good, since all true virtue resides in God's Word. If He didn't offer goodness to us, we could not indulge it.

But that is not the reality we live in, in my opinion. God has not completely forsaken Man. And He continues to offer virtue to all of us in the form of His Word given to the consciences of all men. We just don't hear too good, and we are easily influenced by a hostile, satanic environment that unfortunately we have played into.

To extract ourselves from this environment we still have need to respond to God's Word, which is still active towards us, though now in a redemptive, long-suffering sense. We can obtain redemption by personal choice.

But it requires a certain amount of humiliation, including confession of sin, and courage enduring in virtue through all kinds of temptations. The path of redemption is a continuation of God's Word, and nothing new about God. It is what we were born for. And those God planned to have it will still get it.

We will not get it, in my opinion, through Total Depravity. We will get it by the virtue we will called originally to have, which is the ability to respond positively to God's Word.

 

[O'Darby]

Yes, I suppose there are different views about what TD means. I think you're right that it at least means that people cannot choose for Christ unless Christ 1st enables them. In the OT that might mean that Israel could not choose to make covenant with God unless God 1st approached them with a covenant offer?

If so, this at least partly makes sense to me. However, I'm of the view that God has already approached all of mankind with the offer of living in His word--even after the Fall. It is an inborn characteristic of Man to hear God's word. And that word did not stop after Man's Fall.

So it is built into us to be able to hear God's Word, to hear His offer to give us virtue or, if it is available, to live in covenant relationship with God. No covenant was, however, available to any nation but Israel before Christ.

In theory, we would all be despicable if God's Word vacated Man entirely. We would have no basis for doing good, since all true virtue resides in God's Word. If He didn't offer goodness to us, we could not indulge it.

But that is not the reality we live in, in my opinion. God has not completely forsaken Man. And He continues to offer virtue to all of us in the form of His Word given to the consciences of all men. We just don't hear too good, and we are easily influenced by a hostile, satanic environment that unfortunately we have played into.

To extract ourselves from this environment we still have need to respond to God's Word, which is still active towards us, though now in a redemptive, long-suffering sense. We can obtain redemption by personal choice.

But it requires a certain amount of humiliation, including confession of sin, and courage enduring in virtue through all kinds of temptations. The path of redemption is a continuation of God's Word, and nothing new about God. It is what we were born for. And those God planned to have it will still get it.

We will not get it, in my opinion, through Total Depravity. We will get it by the virtue we will called originally to have, which is the ability to respond positively to God's Word.

That is my understanding - i.e., Total Depravity relates mostly or wholly to humans' inability to choose Christ of their own free will. Hence, only the predestined elect will be saved. My understanding is that it doesn't so much relate to sinful conduct at the individual level, which is why God could give someone over to a depraved mind in terms of things like lust as described in Romans even though the individual was, like all humans, in a state of Total Depravity.

Calvinism is indeed legalistic and unappealing, which is why there are probably more non-Five Point (strict TULIP) Calvinists today than strict TULIP ones.

 

[Pearl]

Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do. GNT

Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. NLT

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

If the T. in T.U.L.I.P. was true, why would these people, adults, unsaved, be given over to the same state we were born with?

Three more versions which to me make it clearer. I would say it means that when people deliberately choose to turn their backs on God he reciprocates and turns his back on them. So yes they are dead in their sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is my understanding - i.e., Total Depravity relates mostly or wholly to humans' inability to choose Christ of their own free will. Hence, only the predestined elect will be saved. My understanding is that it doesn't so much relate to sinful conduct at the individual level, which is why God could give someone over to a depraved mind in terms of things like lust as described in Romans even though the individual was, like all humans, in a state of Total Depravity.

Calvinism is indeed legalistic and unappealing, which is why there are probably more non-Five Point (strict TULIP) Calvinists today than strict TULIP ones.

Well, I'm more Calvinist than not, but certainly not a legalist. And as you suggest, I find no need to support the 5 point TULIP in my sense of Predestination.

What is "unappealing" about Calvinism is "Double Predestination," indicating that people are thrown into Hell by God's original choice. I don't know that pure Calvinists would put it in those terms. However, that's the caricature that's developed over time, that people apart from their own preference are predestined to be damned. I could never go along with such an idea.

On the notion that there are two strains going on in this, between those who are unable to choose for Christ without Christ's help and those who can or cannot choose to fall into greater depravity of mind, it's difficult to say. I'm not sure people think through all that for the most part.

I should think that if people are predetermined whether to choose Christ or not it would be equally true that people cannot choose how depraved they will be? There is either free will or there is not. Each person will likely have his or her own view. I come out on the side of free will in this regard.

 

[Nancy]

Thank you all for your views!

 

[Lambano]

My understanding is that it doesn't so much relate to sinful conduct at the individual level, which is why God could give someone over to a depraved mind in terms of things like lust as described in Romans even though the individual was, like all humans, in a state of Total Depravity

I agree, but I think it's a very common hermeneutical mistake to interpret Romans 1:21-31 as applying to individuals. While it may be true that "God greases the skids in the direction we want to go", but if we interpret it as being only about individuals, it breaks up the flow of Paul's logic from what he says about Gentiles in Chapter 1 to what he says Jews in Chapter 2 to the great truths in Chapter 3:

21 But now apart from Torah the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by Torah and the Prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

and Paul's stated link between idolatry and depravity is lost and some of the logic about keeping Torah no longer makes sense because the context of building a community of faith in Christ out of Gentiles and Jews is gone.

Look for themes ...